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Advice on avoiding the Suicide gank

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ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#101 - 2014-11-03 20:35:58 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:
How did this turn into 5 pages? All OP asked was for some advice on avoiding gankers and it's my opinion that the advice that has given has been mostly useless.

Ganking is becoming a problem. Since many nerfs and buffs are the result of someone screaming that the game is unbalanced lets play this card right now.

The problem I see is that in my 10 year eve career, ganking can be seen in the same light as the "nano craze". Reasons why CCP decided to change the PVP landscape are:

•Speed must never reach ludicrous speed, which is defined as speeds where missiles and drones don't intercept the class of ship they were intended for.
• There should be a significant and meaningful difference in speed between the ship classes.
• Speed should not permit a larger ship to perform the role that a specialized ship was intended for.
• Afterburners should be a viable module selection for PvP.
• Guerilla warfare must remain a viable combat tactic.

If I try to apply the same logic to ganking in high sec then:
Ganking must never reach ludicrous levels, the levels we are seeing now when capitals are being ganked for the hell of it.
There should be a significant penality for engaging in ganking
Ganking should now replace traditional methods of obtaining ISK
Suitable strategies should be in place to ensure people are able to suitably protect themselves
Ganking should remain a viable gameplay.

Now my reasoning behind this is that over the years ganking always used to be the activtiy engaged in when the ultimate decision branched into two, The first is obvously the traditional hatred towards a player, the chance of success out weighed the penalty. We can't do anything about the first, hatred is hatred and that also includes LOL kills. The second is the penalty enforced with the criminal act. 100m loss 5 years ago was seen as a huge dip in someone isk, now its a drop in the ocean. change the penalty and allow people to protect themselves.

Alts, tanks, scouts, webby alts channels, moving lighter loads around, making yourself less of a target mean nothing at the moment since a lot of kills are being completed for not "following some sort of ******** new code"??



What "levels"?

No one has ever produced a single shred of evidence that ganking has increased , despite the fact that they talk about it ALL the time..

It's one of those long time lies the carebear community is known for, EVE is dying, Ganking is increasing (and ganking/scamming chases people awy) and CCP better hurry up and change the game because SWG -SWTOR - Black Prophecy - Jumpgate -Star Trek Online - X Rebirth - Star Citizen/Elite Dangerous is going to kill it.


Oh really Take into account that at a guess, on average there are over 20k less people signing into Eve than the same time last year there is an increase.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#102 - 2014-11-03 20:37:23 UTC
Doc Fury wrote:
A CHODE mining "permit" is almost as legitimate as my side job as an Adult film Casting Agent.


Do you also by any chance drive one particular taxi in London?

Invalid signature format
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#103 - 2014-11-03 20:41:38 UTC
Ganking may not have increased, but by golly the screaming about it most surely has.
Oddly, there's been an overall increase in screaming on various nefarious topics as of late.
I await the threadnaught going into excrutiating detail about how mission flipping is killing eve.
'Go on good friend, scream all you want, as that only excites me.' - The pAper chAse, 'You're One of Them, Aren't You?'

Barring the CODE. propaganda (always entertaining), there have actually been several good bits of advice given... with the general response being disbelief.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#104 - 2014-11-03 20:41:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
ll Kuray ll wrote:

Oh really Take into account that at a guess, on average there are over 20k less people signing into Eve than the same time last year there is an increase.


[edit: derp, wrong link.

Dude, of course they are increasing their activity. They have increased their actual size of their alliance by a similar amount.

Oh, and concurrency stats mean jack.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#105 - 2014-11-03 20:42:57 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Ganking is becoming a problem. Since many nerfs and buffs are the result of someone screaming that the game is unbalanced lets play this card right now.

Friend, just stay calm. There is nothing to fear.

See, Highsec is in a state of complete chaos. The risk/effort is completely out of control, the players are lazy, AFK and move billions of ISK unprotected in untanked ships trough James 315's territory. Obviously something has to be done and here we are.

The balance will be restored through the application of antimatter. The extravagant unprotected ships of the bot-aspirants will explode in fireworks all over the sky, each one a prayer to our Saviour James 315!

Our goal was and is always clear and there for everyone to read on www.minerbumping.com. It is the complete control of all of Highsec. We don't chose this path because it is easy, in fact many of the here present forum whiners doubt it can be done. We chose this path because it is a challenge, because force projection in Highsec is not easy. We play EVE on "nightmare" settings.

Be aware that we are just starting, as many many more join our cause to build a better Highsec for a better EVE.

I am a Knight of the New Order and I fight in the name of our Supreme Protector, Saviour of Highsec and father of the New Order, James 315! Hallowed be his name!

Evil RatKid
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#106 - 2014-11-03 20:45:14 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Just assume everyone is red.

/fixed

Remove standings and insurance.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#107 - 2014-11-03 20:45:41 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:


Oh really Take into account that at a guess, on average there are over 20k less people signing into Eve than the same time last year there is an increase.


LOL

You do know that linking EVE_Offline as some kind of evidence is akin to citing, wikipedia as a source for your history 101 class, right?

So you actually think that their has been {a} a rise in ganking and {b} this rise is causing people to leave?


Why didn't people leave before now?

Why didn't people leave before the EHP buffs in 2005 and 2006 when ships are easier to gank?

Why didn't people leave before the CONCORD buff when gankers could escape CONCORD?

Why didn't people leave before the insurance nerf (ganking was not only easier, but more profitable and thus more likely to occur)? Why didn't the game grown by leaps and bounds after the insurance nerf that nerfed ganking?

Why didn't miners leave en mass before the mining ship EHP buffs of a couple years ago? Why are their leaving now that Mining ships are easier to tank?

Did you take into account dual/triple character training? you know, those things that made a lot of accounts held for training obsolete. Did you take into account the training cue changes that caused people to have to log in to change training even less than before?

etc etc etc. What you don't get is that EVE is SAFER than in the past, and yet fewer characters are logged in. That means, if anything, that if there is a decline of Eve online, it was caused by INCREASED SAFETY creating boredom rather than gankers.
Omar Alharazaad
New Eden Tech Support
#108 - 2014-11-03 20:51:34 UTC
Jenn, I think you may be on to something there. The increase in safety may be causing an amplified reaction to the incidents in question. Because it's safer folks just might be reacting with greater outrage when the crimes occur than they would have otherwise in the less safe times. Something like the reaction to violent crime in major cities vs how it is reacted to in smaller, more insulated communities. The fact that it's happening at all is terrifying to those who never lived in the more dangerous, older version of New Eden. As a result we're seeing more of these 'OMG save the chilluns!' threads.

Worth considering. Any and all governments are welcome to send me grant money to study it.

Come hell or high water, this sick world will know I was here.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#109 - 2014-11-03 21:00:56 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
Jenn, I think you may be on to something there. The increase in safety may be causing an amplified reaction to the incidents in question. Because it's safer folks just might be reacting with greater outrage when the crimes occur than they would have otherwise in the less safe times. Something like the reaction to violent crime in major cities vs how it is reacted to in smaller, more insulated communities. The fact that it's happening at all is terrifying to those who never lived in the more dangerous, older version of New Eden. As a result we're seeing more of these 'OMG save the chilluns!' threads.

Worth considering. Any and all governments are welcome to send me grant money to study it.


Like I said in another thread, a side job of mine is compiling criminal incident statistics for my area. If you poll people, they will tell you crime is up, they always say that, when the fact is that crime in the ares is at pre-1980s levels. Likewise i saw an article a few years ago saying teen pregnancy was down to 1950s levels, but again, poll people and they tell you that kids are getting knocked up way more often than "the good ole days" lol.

People don't understand how imperfect their own perceptions are, and we can see this in game and on these forums all the time. That's part of the reason why any kind of awoxxing nerf is a bad idea to me, like with the tutorials (that funnel people into the most boring pve any game has ever had), the increased apparent safety of high sec gives new players the wrong idea, so when reality hits (like a gank), it hits them harder than it ever did to me starting in 2007 when it was more apparent that stupid = blown up in EVE.
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#110 - 2014-11-03 21:01:12 UTC
If you read my first post i say nothing about people leaving the game becuase of ganking, all i've tried to do is say ganking is becoming a problem which may be at the same levels as the nano-craze.

When a missile can not hit its target becuase it is going quicker than a missile can be seen in a similar fashion to a freighter pilot bbeing continually bumped off alignment to be ganked.

I'm not the considerablly less number of pilots signed into the game is rhe result f ganking, I am trying to perhaps answer your question which i do believe you said where are the stats about ganking has increased.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#111 - 2014-11-03 21:05:00 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Doc Fury wrote:
A CHODE mining "permit" is almost as legitimate as my side job as an Adult film Casting Agent.


Do you also by any chance drive one particular taxi in London?


No, but some may recognize a certain couch.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#112 - 2014-11-03 21:06:55 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
If you read my first post i say nothing about people leaving the game becuase of ganking


Except for the part where you mention the log in numbers. If you weren't trying to make that association, why even say that in the first place?



Quote:
all i've tried to do is say ganking is becoming a problem which may be at the same levels as the nano-craze.


And you're wrong. It's happening less and less every year, to the point where only a large organization with an SRP can actually maintain activities like that.


Quote:

When a missile can not hit its target becuase it is going quicker than a missile can be seen in a similar fashion to a freighter pilot bbeing continually bumped off alignment to be ganked.


No, it can't. Those two things are not analogous in any way.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#113 - 2014-11-03 21:10:01 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Question.

Is the log-off e-warp guaranteed to be a success if the target is not pointed/scrammed/infini pointed or can you just bump it out of alignment to make it fail?

Doesn't matter because they will sit in space for 15 minutes if you so much as sneeze at them with a nubie shipBlink


But I was wondering if you could somehow gank a freighter with a 2 player team of 1 perma bumper and a shooter waiting his GCC timer before re-shipping to shoot some more. With the info if you can prevent the e-warp, I woudl then have checked what would be the required dps from a single ship to burn more than the shield of a freighter since armore/structure damage are permanent unless repped while the shield regen between each attempt. It's not effective but still probably the worst case of holding someone for what could be considered too damn long...
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#114 - 2014-11-03 21:15:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ll Kuray ll
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:
If you read my first post i say nothing about people leaving the game becuase of ganking


Except for the part where you mention the log in numbers. If you weren't trying to make that association, why even say that in the first place?



Quote:
all i've tried to do is say ganking is becoming a problem which may be at the same levels as the nano-craze.


And you're wrong. It's happening less and less every year, to the point where only a large organization with an SRP can actually maintain activities like that.


Quote:

When a missile can not hit its target becuase it is going quicker than a missile can be seen in a similar fashion to a freighter pilot bbeing continually bumped off alignment to be ganked.


No, it can't. Those two things are not analogous in any way.


Log in numbers i felt was an important number to include. Even with lower pilots signing in there are more concord kills. Which then leads me to make a bold prediction that eventually it could and in my opinion already is well on its way to becoming the new nano craze. SRP has nothing to do with it since now many people are ISK sufficient with incursion runners, mission runners, null sec farmers etc. The penalty of a criminal act in high sec is nothing to what it would have cost someone 5 years ago. It's all situational.

Give me one good reason why a ship that goes quicker than missiles isn't the same as a freighter unable to warp due to its slow align and warp which is affected by it being bumped constantly off alignment.
Caleb Seremshur
Commando Guri
Guristas Pirates
#115 - 2014-11-03 21:23:54 UTC
What I dont understand is why people feel like they're entitled to flying huge ships like freighters through anywhere. Eve does not represent any form of our modern society it much more closely represents a pirates of the Caribbean atmosphere. Anywhere anytike your day can be ruined. And I'm not talking about the movie but the time period.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#116 - 2014-11-03 21:32:16 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:

Log in numbers i felt was an important number to include. Even with lower pilots signing in there are more concord kills.


And you entirely fail to realize why that is, of course. Because ganking keeps getting nerfed, so gankers have to use more pilots now to get results.


Quote:
The penalty of a criminal act in high sec is nothing to what it would have cost someone 5 years ago.


And then you start making up lies, I see.

No, ganking is considerably more penalizing than ever before. Certainly from five years ago in fact. Ever heard of the insurance nerf?

See, this is why it's impossible to take carebears seriously, they don't even try to have a clue of what they're talking about, they just keep on beating the drum for their emo fascist agenda to ruin every good videogame.


Quote:

Give me one good reason why a ship that goes quicker than missiles isn't the same as a freighter unable to warp due to its slow align and warp which is affected by it being bumped constantly off alignment.


Because outrunning missiles has nothing to do with freighter pilots not flying correctly? They are about as disparate as it's possible to be.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#117 - 2014-11-03 21:41:53 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
What I dont understand is why people feel like they're entitled to flying huge ships like freighters through anywhere. Eve does not represent any form of our modern society it much more closely represents a pirates of the Caribbean atmosphere. Anywhere anytike your day can be ruined. And I'm not talking about the movie but the time period.


That I get nothing in Eve is a garantee and it is a game for people who like to be dark. However, there has always been an element of "if you engage in criminal activity you will pay the price". Criminal activity is now at a point where it's not a punishment.

If we use the recent reason why the long distance projection has come in, CCP said they want players to make more of a educated decision to go galloping across eve in capital fleets. So they bring in a horrible jump farigue mechanic. This to me is wrong. People should not be punished for looking for content in a capital, for me the real mechanic that needed changing was the cyno. If you want to talk about AFK and lazy, 4 days to train an alt and all you do is click and cyno is up. Regardless ganking needs to be treated with the same venom. If you are going to engage in it there has to be consequence. I'm not talking banned from eve type consequence but enough to really push gankers into deciding if it is really going to pay off to gank someone in high sec.

PS: believe me, i totally get that people have no right to play this game and feel safe throughout but i would also urge you to think about those people that came to the game with the understanding that your choices affect the game and you can choose to try to be safe of which there is consequence and help to do that and there is choice to be a badass.
ll Kuray ll
Space Wolves ind.
Solyaris Chtonium
#118 - 2014-11-03 21:54:57 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
ll Kuray ll wrote:

Log in numbers i felt was an important number to include. Even with lower pilots signing in there are more concord kills.


And you entirely fail to realize why that is, of course. Because ganking keeps getting nerfed, so gankers have to use more pilots now to get results.


Quote:
The penalty of a criminal act in high sec is nothing to what it would have cost someone 5 years ago.


And then you start making up lies, I see.

No, ganking is considerably more penalizing than ever before. Certainly from five years ago in fact. Ever heard of the insurance nerf?

See, this is why it's impossible to take carebears seriously, they don't even try to have a clue of what they're talking about, they just keep on beating the drum for their emo fascist agenda to ruin every good videogame.


Quote:

Give me one good reason why a ship that goes quicker than missiles isn't the same as a freighter unable to warp due to its slow align and warp which is affected by it being bumped constantly off alignment.


Because outrunning missiles has nothing to do with freighter pilots not flying correctly? They are about as disparate as it's possible to be.



So; the average Eve pilots signed in on a daily basis are lowest its beenfor a while because gankers need more pilots to gank other pilots. Yes you're right, makes perfect sense. Lower number of pilots signed in, more ganking pilots and yet just as much or not high concord kills.

Penalty being that you can easily get your sec status back, make the isk back for a new ship, Have a good drop or even in some cases ganks just for the hell of it.

I'm not going to repeat myself against the "freighter pilot not flown correctly". I've seen pilots go from gate to gate, with scouts and intel channels and webby alts and still be ganked by 12 Talos's.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#119 - 2014-11-03 21:59:29 UTC
ll Kuray ll wrote:
Regardless ganking needs to be treated with the same venom. If you are going to engage in it there has to be consequence. I'm not talking banned from eve type consequence but enough to really push gankers into deciding if it is really going to pay off to gank someone in high sec.


There are consequences. Just because you aren't able to recognize them does not mean they don't exist, and just because smart gameplay can work around them does not mean they don't have an impact.

And as for "pay off", that's not really up to us. It's up to the fools who overload their freighters and afk through twenty jumps.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#120 - 2014-11-03 22:01:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
ll Kuray ll wrote:

So; the average Eve pilots signed in on a daily basis are lowest its beenfor a while because gankers need more pilots to gank other pilots.


Learn to read.

CONCORD kills are up because gankers need more pilots.




Quote:

Penalty being that you can easily get your sec status back, make the isk back for a new ship, Have a good drop or even in some cases ganks just for the hell of it.


First, you can't get your sec status back "easily". That's why many of us don't bother.

As for the rest, good. Ganking is intended gameplay, you are supposed to be able to do it for fun.


Quote:

I'm not going to repeat myself against the "freighter pilot not flown correctly". I've seen pilots go from gate to gate, with scouts and intel channels and webby alts and still be ganked by 12 Talos's.


And I fly my freighter alt through hotspots twice a week and I have never died. It is freaking easy to not die, even when flying a big giant bullseye like a freighter. It is laughably easy to not die.

In fact it's entirely unbalanced how easy it is for a non combat ship to never die.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.