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Dev blog: CSM9 Summer Summit Minutes!

First post First post First post
Author
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#101 - 2014-11-03 22:27:27 UTC
Erin Crawford wrote:

It's a pity, but understandable.
Thanks anyways.


Aww! I think it would be awesome to have some kind of public content authoring tool too. Don't worry, we hear you.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins

DeMichael Crimson
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#102 - 2014-11-04 00:48:30 UTC  |  Edited by: DeMichael Crimson
Session: Ship and module balancing
Page 24:
CCP Fozzie - Where meta 4 items are better than T2 we'll be downgrading them so that T2 are always
superior. I do not think that having unique faction items is bad or that we will have to do much to them.

Sugar Kyle- Where will COSMOS modules fit in with regards to this?
CCP Fozzie - They'll fit in fine with this, and their biggest advantage is that they have among the best
fitting requirements. We don't really want to change them too much at this time. Faction stuff that has
an advantage probably won't change.



Instead of constantly nerfing stuff, how about buffing those few T2 items that need to have better attribute stats compared to their meta lv 4 counterparts.

Also you guys definitely need to buff Storyline / Cosmos modules, most of them are rated meta lv 6 yet have attribute stats worse than meta lv 4 mods.


DMC
Sugar Kyle
Middle Ground
#103 - 2014-11-04 02:23:25 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Finally through with the entire thing - what a read.

Many fantastic things in there - good job CSM 9.

2 things i am still concerned about:

The trend to make low sec a pure roaming and pve farming area is kind of scary to me actually. I had hoped for some more activity for making low a habitable area again. It used to be a great 'training&staging' area for corporations and alliances as a first step before trying to go to null sec. Starting to get established away from major market hubs, developing your own market etc - all that is completely missing in there.


I do not believe that low sec is a training ground. It is an area with its own unique mechanics and much of its lifestyle is quite different from null. Low sec is not a stepping ground. It is an independent area. If someone wishes to live in low sec, lovely, but it is not about training wheels. Low, like high, null, and wormholes contains players of all ages, abilities and ship types interacting in its unique environment because that is the type of game play the residents enjoy.

I run two market hubs in low sec. They are both successful and profitable. I manufacture and build in low sec. I own POCOs, my corporation owns POS. All of these things are alive and viable.

But yes, I am quite focused on a more dynamic game play where residents do not simply sit but live within an area finding what they need from system to system. I have many wishes for low sec and this is only the start. The fixes for escalations that are coming in excite me. I love the ships out in space, hunting in belts, flying and dying and living in low sec.

Member of CSM9 and CSM10.

Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#104 - 2014-11-04 05:02:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
Sugar Kyle wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Finally through with the entire thing - what a read.

Many fantastic things in there - good job CSM 9.

2 things i am still concerned about:

The trend to make low sec a pure roaming and pve farming area is kind of scary to me actually. I had hoped for some more activity for making low a habitable area again. It used to be a great 'training&staging' area for corporations and alliances as a first step before trying to go to null sec. Starting to get established away from major market hubs, developing your own market etc - all that is completely missing in there.


I do not believe that low sec is a training ground. It is an area with its own unique mechanics and much of its lifestyle is quite different from null. Low sec is not a stepping ground. It is an independent area. If someone wishes to live in low sec, lovely, but it is not about training wheels. Low, like high, null, and wormholes contains players of all ages, abilities and ship types interacting in its unique environment because that is the type of game play the residents enjoy.

I run two market hubs in low sec. They are both successful and profitable. I manufacture and build in low sec. I own POCOs, my corporation owns POS. All of these things are alive and viable.

But yes, I am quite focused on a more dynamic game play where residents do not simply sit but live within an area finding what they need from system to system. I have many wishes for low sec and this is only the start. The fixes for escalations that are coming in excite me. I love the ships out in space, hunting in belts, flying and dying and living in low sec.



Throws lasso at Sugar and calms her down - sshhhht - its all good! :D

Please look at my liitle marks up their - its for the lack for any good wording that i used 'training&staging' for that particular point. And you are very mistaken if you believe i made any generalized direct comparison between null and low - i used to live in low myself long enough to agree in parts to 'unique'. But bottom line is that its nothing but a more hostile empire space due to the lack of concorde and having capitals being allowed. All other empire mechanics apply to low and 'real' inhabitants like you and your group are pretty much an exception and not the rule. I do recall an interview in a blog where you admitted yourself that there is an obvious lack of others doing what you do (its the one with Crossing Zebras). And a typical transition of a 'carebear' into a bloodthisty pvp pilot very often happens via the usage of low and being able to shoot at others mostly at will. But what i mean with training&staging relates more to level of hostility - its not about comparing low and null more like comparing from least hostile towards most hostile. Low is one step in this.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#105 - 2014-11-04 09:47:08 UTC
Most would argue that hisec is the transition zone to nullsec. Lowsec and w-space attract those with the bloodthirst gene, and L4 mission runners are drawn to the nullsec farming grounds.

Perhaps nullsec becomes more attractive to PVP players in the future?

Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#106 - 2014-11-04 10:25:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
King Fu Hostile wrote:
Most would argue that hisec is the transition zone to nullsec. Lowsec and w-space attract those with the bloodthirst gene, and L4 mission runners are drawn to the nullsec farming grounds.

Perhaps nullsec becomes more attractive to PVP players in the future?



That statement was only true for the stagnating null sec era - thats why i phrased 'used to be' which points to before that time. With Phoebe we are basically going back to those times because no more hotdropping across the entire board. People where not settling in low anymore because you would be plumbed and raped by every major player at will - that will not happen anymore(hopefully).

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty

Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#107 - 2014-11-04 11:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Arcos Vandymion
DeMichael Crimson wrote:
Session: Ship and module balancing
Page 24:
CCP Fozzie - Where meta 4 items are better than T2 we'll be downgrading them so that T2 are always
superior. I do not think that having unique faction items is bad or that we will have to do much to them.

Sugar Kyle- Where will COSMOS modules fit in with regards to this?
CCP Fozzie - They'll fit in fine with this, and their biggest advantage is that they have among the best
fitting requirements. We don't really want to change them too much at this time. Faction stuff that has
an advantage probably won't change.



Instead of constantly nerfing stuff, how about buffing those few T2 items that need to have better attribute stats compared to their meta lv 4 counterparts.

Also you guys definitely need to buff Storyline / Cosmos modules, most of them are rated meta lv 6 yet have attribute stats worse than meta lv 4 mods.


DMC


Disagree - for those items where Meta4 is as powerful the problem is clearly with the Meta scaling. T2 is defined as being 20% better. If we take a look at say TPs Meta4 are allready 20% better in the most important stat - signature increase of whatever you choose as your unlucky victim for the electro-optical guidance system. The application stats are equal, the activation cost LOWER as is the FITTING. While lower activation cost and fitting might be understandable it would have had to come at the 16% improved performance that Meta4 should have (unless the T2 items allow for T2 charges which makes Meta4 have the T2 base allowable (see Guns)).

EDIT:
Allways left me baffling anyway. If T2 is classified Meta5 - why is T1 not simply Meta1 (1 being the first number ... you don't start counting at 0). Meta 2 3 4 would be 5 10 15% better, problem solved. Cuts item numbers massively while not taking anything from the immersion. Leaves the problem of Meta6+ weapon systems. T2 ammo is arguably the main selling point of T2 turrets and launchers ("best performance at affordable prices" if you only use vanilla or faction ammo). Make Meta6+ able to use T2 ammo? Make some of them able to use T2? Neither of which sounds really compelling. Maybe split the charge groups of Advnaced Ammunitions up into long and short range - only allow them to use that specific T2 ammo. Doesn't sound like a very sound idea either ... Scoch>Conflag for example.
CaldariCitizen 32453253
Perkone
Caldari State
#108 - 2014-11-26 11:31:31 UTC
Lets kill more ways of playing the game : ^ )
Scheulagh Santorine
The Math Department
#109 - 2014-12-06 22:13:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Scheulagh Santorine
CSM & Developers,

I have read some of the minutes focusing on the subject of corporation aggression changes, particularly the Team Five-O sections. I have some questions about what I am reading. In the following exchange (Text 1) it is not clear whether CCP means that the confusion associated with being shot by corp mates and Concord does not respond versus Concord does respond when they are in an NPC corp? Considering this rule has been unchanged for over a decade, is a change to this rule less confusing than consistency?

And what, if you would be kind enough to explain, is intended by the term 'old Eve'?

Another exchange (Text 2) seems to equate war declarations and low-sec/worm-hole/0.0 baiting as equivalent play styles to the complex of players and corporations that have emerged in high-sec, working together to expose theft and subversive combat opportunities? Is it your contention, in the last quote, that the aggression flagging mechanics would be too confusing to identify in-corporation aggression versus out-of-corporation aggression?

Thank you for clarification on these issues.


Regards,

S. Santorine

============================== I used to shoot things. Now I do math.

S. Santorine

Writings on some formal methods in EvE-OnlineEVE Math & Physics Blog

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#110 - 2014-12-06 23:58:39 UTC
I have deleted a redundant double post.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#111 - 2014-12-07 00:25:04 UTC
Scheulagh Santorine wrote:
CSM & Developers,

I have read some of the minutes focusing on the subject of corporation aggression changes, particularly the Team Five-O sections. I have some questions about what I am reading. In the following exchange (Text 1) it is not clear whether CCP means that the confusion associated with being shot by corp mates and Concord does not respond versus Concord does respond when they are in an NPC corp? Considering this rule has been unchanged for over a decade, is a change to this rule less confusing than consistency?

And what, if you would be kind enough to explain, is intended by the term 'old Eve'?

Another exchange (Text 2) seems to equate war declarations and low-sec/worm-hole/0.0 baiting as equivalent play styles to the complex of players and corporations that have emerged in high-sec, working together to expose theft and subversive combat opportunities? Is it your contention, in the last quote, that the aggression flagging mechanics would be too confusing to identify in-corporation aggression versus out-of-corporation aggression?

Thank you for clarification on these issues.


Regards,

S. Santorine


As to the first point. It was a nonintuitive rule from the start and the cause of confusion all along. So the change was the right thing to do and not a cause of further confusion.

Old Eve would be the original version with all its bugs and quirks. Each quirk could be argued against, using the grandfather clause of 'that is how it has always been'. The argument doesn't hold water when the newer way is better. If you disagree with this have a scribe calligraphy up your reply as that is how it should be done, none of the newfangled computer or electronics.

One the second point we were saying that there should be a difference between the flagging mechanisms but this has been solved with the changes in intercorp aggression. So I fail to see your point unless it is a convoluted way to bring back an inherently bad mechanic.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Scheulagh Santorine
The Math Department
#112 - 2014-12-07 03:04:54 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:


As to the first point. It was a nonintuitive rule from the start and the cause of confusion all along. So the change was the right thing to do and not a cause of further confusion.

Old Eve would be the original version with all its bugs and quirks. Each quirk could be argued against, using the grandfather clause of 'that is how it has always been'. The argument doesn't hold water when the newer way is better. If you disagree with this have a scribe calligraphy up your reply as that is how it should be done, none of the newfangled computer or electronics.

One the second point we were saying that there should be a difference between the flagging mechanisms but this has been solved with the changes in intercorp aggression. So I fail to see your point unless it is a convoluted way to bring back an inherently bad mechanic.

m


Your response to the first point about the existing mechanic being confusing repeats the reason that one of the developers cited for the reason to make the change. Did the committee consider that there are many 'complicated' mechanics in EVE as with many other games. If complexity is the issue, why was there no proposal considered to streamline corp aggression mechanics instead of making a drastic change? My suspicion on the lack of diverse discussion on this point is in part that there exists some misunderstanding of the impact of these changes. This view was reinforced with my interaction with Xander Phoena.

I'm going to ignore your second paragraph as it is unrelated to this discussion -- we're talking about a successful computer game whose rules should only change if there is a good reason.

On the questions I asked about the second Text link, I agree that there are a lot of flagging states that players need to learn so perhaps there is some friction there. On the other hand, there does not seem to be a response to the larger question. I'll ask it again directly:

  • What equivalence does the CSM and developers see between war declarations and baiting tactics as equivalent play styles to the complex of players and corporations that have emerged in high-sec, working together to expose theft and subversive combat opportunities?



Regards,

S. Santorine

============================== I used to shoot things. Now I do math.

S. Santorine

Writings on some formal methods in EvE-OnlineEVE Math & Physics Blog

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#113 - 2014-12-07 03:20:24 UTC
Scheulagh Santorine wrote:
If complexity is the issue, why was there no proposal considered to streamline corp aggression mechanics instead of making a drastic change? My suspicion on the lack of diverse discussion on this point is in part that there exists some misunderstanding of the impact of these changes. This view was reinforced with my interaction with Xander Phoena.

I'm going to ignore your second paragraph as it is unrelated to this discussion -- we're talking about a successful computer game whose rules should only change if there is a good reason.

On the questions I asked about the second Text link, I agree that there are a lot of flagging states that players need to learn so perhaps there is some friction there. On the other hand, there does not seem to be a response to the larger question. I'll ask it again directly:
[list]
  • What equivalence does the CSM and developers see between war declarations and baiting tactics as equivalent play styles to the complex of players and corporations that have emerged in high-sec, working together to expose theft and subversive combat opportunities?



  • I didn't say complex, I said counter intuitive . . . or dumb. The ability to shoot a corp mate out of the blue in hisec with no legal repercussions was a dumb rule and lasted waaaaay too long in the game.

    There was a good reason to change it, so we did.

    I do not answer for all the CSM nor CCP. But if you want my answer as a CSM member (and candidate) there are connections but not equivalence. War decs and baiting are the offence, the other is the defense. Equivalence? No.

    m

    Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

    Scheulagh Santorine
    The Math Department
    #114 - 2014-12-10 17:32:37 UTC
    Mike Azariah wrote:

    I didn't say complex, I said counter intuitive . . . or dumb. The ability to shoot a corp mate out of the blue in hisec with no legal repercussions was a dumb rule and lasted waaaaay too long in the game.

    There was a good reason to change it, so we did.

    I do not answer for all the CSM nor CCP. But if you want my answer as a CSM member (and candidate) there are connections but not equivalence. War decs and baiting are the offence, the other is the defense. Equivalence? No.

    m

    There are many counter-intuitive rules in EVE. If you are interested in a list I can provide one, starting with the rules of combat and ship motion in the game of which I have dedicated considerable study. These counter-intuitive rules have made for rich interaction, and their long-standing does not qualify them necessarily for change.

    As for having 'good' reasons to make this change, I've gone back to the text of the minutes and identified this section (Text3) which seems to outline CCP's real motivation for the changes. The fact that the corp aggression rules have created emergent game play is being trumped by the concerns over how some players respond to adversity. While my anecdotal experiences with being the victim of corporate intrigues in my first months of play does not apply to all players, most people have the grit to stick with the game.

    On the other hand, my recent experiences with the high-sec groups who exploit aggression mechanics, while brief, was a genuinely refreshing way for a veteran to experience the game and meet new people. It is my sincere hope that developers will consider giving something back to this community.


    Regards,

    S. Santorine




    ============================== I used to shoot things. Now I do math.

    S. Santorine

    Writings on some formal methods in EvE-OnlineEVE Math & Physics Blog