Player Features and Ideas Discussion

wow...If there is any weapons in the game that doesn't need a buff, it is projectile turrets in general.

As far as constructive feedback goes, please explain to me how projectiles are overpowered. Mediums in particular.


Badman

you are massively down playing the benefits of selectable damage types and having decent damage projection without spending time swapping ammo.

and no, a medium blaster loaded with null does not out perform a medium autocannon in every category. you can still load that auto cannon with barrage or swap damage types.

One thing you could do with projectiles on the other hand is change the range modifiers on the ammo from optimal to fall off and make the ammo choices a bit more meaningful.

despite them being a little weak on damage .. the ability too cater what damage type you like can often make up for any raw dps lost .. being immune too neuts is also very powerful.. they still track better than lasers so they fine on that score..

i think they have the most choice with ammo .. perhaps a 6 second reload timer might offer a nice useful buff.

Hail is useful only against larger targets, or scram/webbed targets. This is a common theme with all weapon systems (void, conflag, and rage/fury missiles)

So no problems there. I think a 10-15% falloff bonus to ac is a better start than 20-30%. That would make kiting with small acs viable and not overpower mediums. Also 10-15% wont cause as huge of a change with barrage and double TE fits.

As it stands now, my vaga can shoot out to 38ish KM with barrage and 2 TE using 220s. With these changes it would be around 40-42km. With a 30%buff you would see near 50 in some casee, which is a bit much.

I do agree though, ac application at point range needs to be tweaked slightly. 550 dps vaga doing 200-300 dps with 2 application mods makes me sad. Great for killing frigs, anything else.. not so much. Especially if theyre active tanked.

Lets talk about mediums on non-falloff bonused hulls.

Currently, an armor Rupture or Cane (without multiple TE's) with 220's will have a falloff of around 12km using short range high damage ammo. With Barrage loaded and ~100 less DPS that number jumps to about 20km. So that means, at around 20km your average autocannon boat is doing about half their already anemic DPS.

Pulse Lasers will do FULL DPS out to 30km with scorch, albeit with slightly worse tracking.

Blasters, loaded with Null, can still outdamage autocannons within 20km.


Where exactly is that sweet spot where autocannons outperform blasters or lasers?

It doesn't exist. In Frigate Fights scram range kiting is a viable tactic, however once you jump up to mediums, holding your target at 10KM gives the autocannon pilot no advantage, as the blasterboat with null still outdamages, and outracks your high damage short range ammo.

Extending an autocannons falloff will not give Mini pilots a significant advantage, however it will give a skilled pilot a chance to compete against a Blaster Boat by controlling range, or at the very least hit a Laser Boat that is applying its Full DPS to them at range.

you said it yourself, less dps, more range and with better tracking. oh and selectable damage types and immunity to neuts.

tell me what your null dps does to a kitey ishtar gang compared to EMP or Barrage? or IN-MF does to a brawl gang with geddon support.

@SMT

again youre thinking of 1v1 situations.

many, MANY ships fit neuts. there is a very healthy neut vexor navy/ishtar/geddon/prophecy meta out there. And when your fighting for territory rather than a 1v1 you dont always have that luxury of 'Oh well i can see on D-scan you've countered my ship so ill just leave now'.

The sheer versatility the autocannon provides, that sweet spot middle ground and robust resistance to neuts is an excellent conservative choice when you cant always pick your fights and dont know what youre coming up against.

You come with brawlers? ill pull range, i dont need to refit nor even swap ammo save to poke your resist hole
You come with lasers? ill close range and brawl you down, again i dnt really need to refit change ammo.
You come in a shield ishtar? Thats ok you're still in fall off, i still track ok and i can poke that resist hole.
Your gang is heavy on neuts? That's alright, wasnt using that prop mod when im scrammed and webbed anyways and logi keeps me alive.

other weapons dont have these 'on the fly' answers. so yeah, if you know what youre fighting and can pick those fights, by all means pick the right weapon for the job.

But if you dont know what the enemy are bringing before you have a chance to refit or reship, and you dont have a choice as to whether you take the fight or not because youre needed to defend something more meaningful than your killboard, then auto-cannons (along side missiles) are an excellent choice for being a jack of all trades, master of none.

TL:DR
the strength of autocannons is changing tactics on the fly and being difficult to counter.

AC's may not be as good as other weapons when they are at their best, but they are a whole lot better than other weapons at their worst.

Good points.

The reason why a slight bump in base falloff for acs is being talked about is because dps at your desired engagement is less than desirable. As an example, the vagabond, with its falloff bonus is only applying 40-60% of its dps at 20-25km depending on application mods with faction ammo.

Out of the 550 paper dps my fit has (with x2 TE), its applying around 300 with faction and 350-375 with barrage. Perfect for frig hunting. But almost any active tank can out rep that dps. Meaning im highly vulnerable to their gang warping in and have to either run or try to get closer to apply meaningful dps. Which we all know a kiting ship that is hard tackled, is a dead kiting ship.

By increasing base ac falloff by maybe 10-15% would help shift the applied dps into the desired engagement range. We are probably talking an increase of 40-75 dps at 24km. From there we can determine if more tweaks are needed.

Having selectable damage is nice, but when you cant break a dual rep vexors tank with a HAC, then it doesnt matter much.

It would be MUCH more feasable to keep their total range intact, but shift more falloff into optimal. Aside from that, I would actually like to see lasers get the highest tracking speed of all the turret classes because they shoot light not mass projectiles...

Lasers use cap. Hybrid use cap. Projectiles do not use cap.
Lasers have 2 damage types constantly. Hybrids have 2 damage types constantly. Projectiles have 4 damage types it can select from (plus up to 2 additional damage types per charge).

lets look at 425 vs Neutron vs pulse:
Tracking: Neutron > 425 > Pulse
Range: Pulse > 425 > Neutron
non-bonused damage: Neutron > Pulse > 425
Fitting Costs: Pulse > Neutron > 425 (425s use less fittings)

So you get good tracking and good range with low fitting costs, no cap usage, and select-able damage types in exchange for DPS.

Also the reason that projects have a small optimal and long fall off is that they loose damage over distance much less. They lose damage sooner because of it, but they do not loose as much damage as lasers and hybrid per km in falloff.