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Achuran Cultural Survey

Author
Unit XS365BT
Unit Commune
#81 - 2014-11-23 13:40:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Unit XS365BT
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Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#82 - 2014-11-23 13:51:13 UTC
After the Judgement, worthy Achurans will be able to practice the culture of their choice in Upper Hell, the Hell of the Righteous Non-Chosen.

(Transhumanists, of course, are not righteous. They're just going to burn. Repent.)
Shelby Dusette
Division 13
#83 - 2014-11-23 13:58:40 UTC
Hi Mista Nauply! How's things going??

I hope you're still practicing the smiling thing 'cause you're sounding all morbid again.

Achuran hell reminds me of mornings at home when we only had one bathroom for the girls. Wow Mista Nauply it was violent sometimes. Kinda fun too.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#84 - 2014-11-23 14:05:36 UTC
Pilots, it would be most appreciated if you would kindly please take a moment to fill out the survey before chatting in the thread. I would rather it was not derailed.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#85 - 2014-11-23 14:24:52 UTC
Fine, fine, fine *grumbles*

Gwen Ikiryo wrote:


Please answer the following if you are not an ethnic Achur.

1. Were you, before reading this thread, aware of the existence of a distinct Achuran culture at all?
1A. If you were, would you describe it extremely akin to ethnic Caldari culture?

2. Have you been exposed to or researched much/any information about the Achura outside of our role in the State, including history or religion?

3. Have you encountered or worked alongside with any ethnic Achur who you would identify as foremostly Achuran, rather than Caldari?

4. Based on your own assessment, do you consider ethnic Caldari and overall State culture to be, overall, inherently superior to Achuran culture?

5. How do you personally perceive the Caldari and Achuran relationship in general?


1. Yes.
1A. No.
2. No.
3. No.
4. Yes.
5. I was unaware of any serious hostility until now.
Shelby Dusette
Division 13
#86 - 2014-11-23 14:34:25 UTC
Wow, chill out lady! I'll do your thingy!

Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Please answer the following if you are an ethnic Achur or of mixed Achuran heritage.

1. When speaking in terms of your identity, would you foremostly describe yourself as an Achura, or a Caldari?

2. Were you born on our homeworld of Achura Prime/Saisio III, or elsewhere?

3. Were you raised in the Achuran client state or one of it's very few outposts, or under a megacorporation?
3A. If the former, have you ever felt uncomfortable with your position as a citizen of a tributary protectorate?
3B. If the latter, were you content with the necessity to comform to the Caldari cultural norms to be accepted? Did you feel you were provided with satisfactory education about your ethnic history?

4. To whom would you say you hold the most loyalty: The Elder Visionaries - the provisional government of the homeworld, based around the remnants of the old empire - The Chief Executive Panel, or neither?

5. Do you follow one of the many sects of the Faith of the Achur, the Caldari Wayist Faith, or neither/another religion?

6. Are you familar with Sukuuvestaa's early actions on our homeworld, where they demolished and replaced many of our major cities, deposed our native leadership, and assumed minority rule over the planet, enforcing Caldari culture in the process?
6A. Do you believe this was a good and justified action?

7. Would you consider native Achuran culture to have a great deal in common with native Caldari culture, as is often claimed, or to even be essentially one and the same?

8. How do you personally perceive the Caldari and Achuran relationship

Ok, so like....

1. I dunno, probably kinda like both depending what I'm talking about n' who I'm talking too.

2. I was born on a ship! Wooop!

3. Uhh. I was raised by my parents, n' kinda by my older sisters too, I guess?

4. My big sista Erica!

5. Wow, no I don't understand religious stuff. It's like creepy or something.

6. Uhh I dunno, 'cause I was never good at school n' stuff and never went to the home world that I can remember. Maybe when I was real little though n' maybe I just can't remember it? It's funny how you forget stuff when you're a baby!

7. I dunno. I don't really think about all that stuff.

8. I'm totally okay with anyone having a relationship with anyone they like 'cause it's their right so long as nobody gets hurt, right? Who cares where they come from.

Now can I talk to Mista Nauply, Miss?
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#87 - 2014-11-23 14:46:23 UTC
Shelby Dusette wrote:
Achuran hell reminds me of mornings at home when we only had one bathroom for the girls. Wow Mista Nauply it was violent sometimes. Kinda fun too.


God will provide enough bathrooms in Upper Hell; there shall be no God-caused — that is, external — causes of suffering in Upper Hell.

However, God will not prevent the people of Upper Hell from fighting amongst each other. If the Achurans wish to carry on a war against the other Caldari bloodlines, they will be permitted to do that. Or if they wish to fight over bathrooms, even though there will be enough bathrooms for everyone, they will be permitted to do that.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#88 - 2014-11-23 14:54:50 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Don't come into temple with your own idols.


Except Sukuuvestaa literally came into our temple and planted it's idols everywhere when it first discovered our people, Diana. It is a bit hypocritical to employ that logic, in this scenario.

Those CEOs and managers are long dead, Ikiryo-haani.

Gwen Ikiryo wrote:

Our people changed for the sake of the State when it ended our old way of life, even those of us who did not join the megacorporations. How is wrong for me to wish it would change for us, in turn?

And the reason the Elders do not simply form a megacorporation is because our breed of theocracy isn't compatible with corporatism. That isn't to say the two cannot work together, or that our way of life is of less merit and unable to contribute - Simply that it is not viable to expect our society to fit perfectly into the mold created by the State. It is not a justification to keep us in a state of eternal supplication.

Changes, Ikiryo-haani, are brought not with wishes, but with actions.

The State is citizens, those, who live here with us and among us. Those, who don't want to stay with us, I can say only this: "Leave the State and be somewhere else".

There can be no place for Achura in the State corporate structure with whole Achura theocracy and culture, unless Achura joins this structure and creates this place. Nobody will do it for you, only you yourself. And then you can talk to the State on equal ground, as an equal member of CEP.

And you could do it easily, because now Achura is Caldari, just like Deteis is Caldari and Civire is Caldari. It is not just our State, this is your State as well, and it lives by work of millions of peoples. If you think such creation will be profitable for Achura people and will help them work better and be happier - then go for it.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#89 - 2014-11-23 15:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
I find it a bit of a logical paradox, Diana. You're saying that in order for our culture to be accepted within the State, we would have to build a corporation around Achuran values, and have it thrive considerably. But because it is not already accepted, how would we even get off the ground? The State, at a legislative level, is fundamentally built to accomodate organizations of Caldari culture before all others. How could we possibly thrive in that environment to the point where we'd even be able to make that stop being true?

The game, frankly, is a bit rigged in the favour of the house.

Diana Kim wrote:
Those CEOs and managers are long dead, Ikiryo-haani.


As are the Federals who ordered the bombing of the Caldari Homeworld. And yet, neither of us would shy from still passing judgement on their successors for those same actions, and wishing some degree of compensation for them.

If there is one principle of the Caldari Way for which I am close to being in uttermost agreement with, is that all of us, both ourselves and others, must, and will, ultimately pay the debts of our ancestors - Whether it is convenient for us or not.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#90 - 2014-11-23 15:45:41 UTC
I know I myself poke them a lot with it with reminder that Gallente Prime must be bombed as well for justice. But they are long dead as well, and I prefer to stay on topics of current events.

Our culture with Achura isn't in hostile relations, and people decide for themselves where is their home, in corporate structure, or in theocratical client state... well, lets say there is a possibility to choose. For me it was chosen without my participation, as I was too young to understand any decisions of this kind.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#91 - 2014-11-23 16:06:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Diana Kim wrote:
I know I myself poke them a lot with it with reminder that Gallente Prime must be bombed as well for justice. But they are long dead as well, and I prefer to stay on topics of current events.

Our culture with Achura isn't in hostile relations, and people decide for themselves where is their home, in corporate structure, or in theocratical client state... well, lets say there is a possibility to choose. For me it was chosen without my participation, as I was too young to understand any decisions of this kind.


We are not in hostile relations, no. And I do not wish us to be. But the fact remains that the core Achuran culture, and it's home nation, is slowly fading further and further into obscurity as the Caldari Way, whether intentionally or not, blocks it's ability to grow and thrive as itself. We are given only the choice to either take it up if we wish to reach the heavens, or else, remain on our scarred home - A home that grows ever smaller in this endlessly expanding world.

Tell me, Diana; If the way of life you loved beyond all others seemed to be growing weaker and weaker, to the point you could soon imagine it vanishing from the world... Would you not wish for anything in the world to reverse it's course?

That is my only endeavour.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#92 - 2014-11-23 20:23:27 UTC
Long ago, the Khanid people — my people — voluntarily gave up most of their cultural distinctives when confronted with a culture — the True Amarr — that had a superior military and a superior God. Perhaps the Archurans are called to do the same with regard to the State and its Way.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#93 - 2014-11-23 23:00:31 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I know I myself poke them a lot with it with reminder that Gallente Prime must be bombed as well for justice. But they are long dead as well, and I prefer to stay on topics of current events.

Our culture with Achura isn't in hostile relations, and people decide for themselves where is their home, in corporate structure, or in theocratical client state... well, lets say there is a possibility to choose. For me it was chosen without my participation, as I was too young to understand any decisions of this kind.


We are not in hostile relations, no. And I do not wish us to be. But the fact remains that the core Achuran culture, and it's home nation, is slowly fading further and further into obscurity as the Caldari Way, whether intentionally or not, blocks it's ability to grow and thrive as itself. We are given only the choice to either take it up if we wish to reach the heavens, or else, remain on our scarred home - A home that grows ever smaller in this endlessly expanding world.

Tell me, Diana; If the way of life you loved beyond all others seemed to be growing weaker and weaker, to the point you could soon imagine it vanishing from the world... Would you not wish for anything in the world to reverse it's course?

That is my only endeavour.


And, are WE not losing something through this withering process? Achurans are one of our bloodlines - sure they are smaller and weaker than the other two, but we saw something in them long ago when we chose them, didn't we?

Having made the choice - why not embrace it?

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.

Aiko Ueshiba
Doomheim
#94 - 2014-11-24 02:12:20 UTC
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:


And, are WE not losing something through this withering process? Achurans are one of our bloodlines - sure they are smaller and weaker than the other two, but we saw something in them long ago when we chose them, didn't we?

Having made the choice - why not embrace it?



Nature teaches us that if one does not adapt to change and evolve, then one dies.

Ms. Ikiryo, what is your end game here? Would you prefer to see a classic Achuran culture free of influence by the State or an evolved (some might say homogenized) Achuran culture that is a facet of the State?

"... I assume that any work which engages with the future must necessarily consist of fragments of the past; any vision we have of the future is necessarily built of our experience to the moment in which we conceive of the vision." W. Gibson.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#95 - 2014-11-24 02:37:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Aiko Ueshiba wrote:
Nature teaches us that if one does not adapt to change and evolve, then one dies.

Ms. Ikiryo, what is your end game here? Would you prefer to see a classic Achuran culture free of influence by the State or an evolved (some might say homogenized) Achuran culture that is a facet of the State?


Sentimentality is a pretty major part of what makes us human, miss Ueshiba. If we lived exclusively by the rules of nature, there'd be no cultures at all.

And as I already said to mister Kraid on the last page, either of these options would be a vast improvement on the status quo, in my opinion - I don't even really have a preference. As I have said repeatedly, the Faith teaches us of the transience inherent in all things. I'm not afraid of flux, only termination.

Though I will comment that it appears you are creating a false dichotomy between the two options by suggesting "evolution" would only come to us in the latter. No one wishes for a stagnant society, and Achuran culture unfused with that of the mainstream State would evolve just as much. Just not in the same direction.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#96 - 2014-11-24 06:30:57 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
I know I myself poke them a lot with it with reminder that Gallente Prime must be bombed as well for justice. But they are long dead as well, and I prefer to stay on topics of current events.

Our culture with Achura isn't in hostile relations, and people decide for themselves where is their home, in corporate structure, or in theocratical client state... well, lets say there is a possibility to choose. For me it was chosen without my participation, as I was too young to understand any decisions of this kind.


We are not in hostile relations, no. And I do not wish us to be. But the fact remains that the core Achuran culture, and it's home nation, is slowly fading further and further into obscurity as the Caldari Way, whether intentionally or not, blocks it's ability to grow and thrive as itself. We are given only the choice to either take it up if we wish to reach the heavens, or else, remain on our scarred home - A home that grows ever smaller in this endlessly expanding world.

Tell me, Diana; If the way of life you loved beyond all others seemed to be growing weaker and weaker, to the point you could soon imagine it vanishing from the world... Would you not wish for anything in the world to reverse it's course?

That is my only endeavour.

I would, I totally would, and this is rather sad story.

But, as I said, nobody will save your culture except you. We have our own, and we are fighting to preserve our life style. We are growing, and growing intensively as our corporations grow.

We had Tikiona states, we had Raata Empire, but we evolved. Evolution is the key to success, survival and development. If you won't evolve, you will just... disappear.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#97 - 2014-11-25 05:51:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Diana Kim wrote:
I would, I totally would, and this is rather sad story.

But, as I said, nobody will save your culture except you. We have our own, and we are fighting to preserve our life style. We are growing, and growing intensively as our corporations grow.

We had Tikiona states, we had Raata Empire, but we evolved. Evolution is the key to success, survival and development. If you won't evolve, you will just... disappear.


Diana,

I don't understand your reasoning. If we are truly Caldari, as you and so many others say - If I am truly Caldari - Should it not only be my responsibility, but the States in turn, to help us, as well as help itself? It's actions up until this point are the main reasons for these concerns to begin with, after all. The State has often compromised it's own system of purely corpotate government in order to protect it's way of life, the Caldari Providence Directorate being only the most recent of many examples. If we are part of it, shouldn't it be happpy to make a few small concessions in order to stop itself from deliberately stifling our own evolution?

I do not suggest asking for much. But the reason this has gone unaddressed as long as it has is that, up until recently, most cultural Achur have been content to remain quietly in our ancient home. But as Pieter has already said, the status quo has begun to change.

Since the raiding of our planet and the theft of the Rod of the Creator close to a decade ago (which some still blame on SuVee, for the record), our people have been begun to become more and more interested in the prospect of expanding off-world. For now, it is only relatively small groups and even sole individuals, but there will come a time - Probably not for some years, but sooner or later - When our society at large turns it's eyes to the heavens. When that day comes, if the State still denies us any place in it, our people may well begin to ask: What connection do we have to the State?

Do we share a common origin? We do not.
Do we speak the same language? We do not.
Do we have the same culture and values? We do not.
Do we have the same religion? We do not.
Do we have the same preferred system of government? We do not.
But most importantly, does it accept us in spite of the above? ...Well, no, it doesn't.

What do you call an entity which stole from you and never apologized, with which you have close to nothing in common with, which fails or doesn't care to protect you adequately - Evidently, since it allowed the planet to be raided and our most important artifacts taken, and has still not bothered to find them - Restricts your development within it, and seemingly wants nothing to do with you at all, beyond collecting taxes?

I do not want myself, nor the rest of the people under the local government, to ever have to ask these questions. I want to believe in the unity of our people. That this is my State as well, and that I am Caldari. I want to believe that it will recognize my concerns, once it becomes more aware of them.

Because the alternatives are considerably troubling.
Miyamoto Takedi
Perkone
Caldari State
#98 - 2014-11-25 15:37:02 UTC
Gwen, by her own words, she doesn't appear to think she was ever Achuran. The cultural cleansing with this one seems to have gone so deep that she honestly believes her ancestors were not either.

Accept that she cannot be changed.
Diana Kim
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#99 - 2014-11-25 15:46:21 UTC
We don't know yet who stole it, but I believe the Navy has sent quite a lot of resources to help Achura.

As for CPD, in less than two of six years while they were active they managed to practically remove nepotism from the State and to cleanse us from humiliating gallentean influence. If Achura could form sort of Achura Providence Directorate, or Achura Culture Preservation society of the sort, then something could be done. Otherwise, words would be just shake of the air.

There are two basically groups of Achura people, one, who join the State as citizens, and second, who stay in the client state, maintaining Achura culture. And Achura world becomes smaller, because regular people decide to leave it for conditions that the State offers. And, as you can understand, the State can't talk with client state on equal grounds. To bring Achura culture into Caldari world, Achura must present a corporation in the CEP. If the client state will evolve into new Megacorporation and will will join the CEP, it will talk on equal ground with other Megas and will represent Achura culture as an equal player. Otherwise... you will just see more and more people slipping away into megacorporations and forgetting Achura culture.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.

Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#100 - 2014-11-25 17:13:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Gwen Ikiryo
Diana Kim wrote:
And, as you can understand, the State can't talk with client state on equal grounds.


Frankly Diana, no, I don't understand.

I will state again that conventional Achur culture is not compatible with the corporate system, because of it's theocratic nature. You cannot put stock values on sects of the faith, and it cannot simply mold it's fundamental ideaology to the States idea of a society overnight. This could change if the Caldari would let our cultures integrate naturally rather then maintain the current in-or-out system, but it is not so. If the Caldari believe this makes us beneath them, that is their own prerogative - But it will only serve to further divide our people.

I any case, you've sort of just reiterated the facts rather then address the point I was making, so I can only assume I was being overly vague. I will speak more bluntly. Native Achur culture is not going to simply be "forgotten" - There will always be people on the homeworld who will keep to our old ways, for one reason or another. And as they grow more interested in interstellar affairs, they may become frustrated with the State if it continues to functionally suppress them. They may get angry. There may be conflict. They may decide they no longer wish to be a "client state". All of these outcomes are unpleasant, and the State should, in my opinion, be willing to go out of it's way a little to ensure they don't happen.

You're also rather ignoring the elephant in the room. The Megacorporations are not the only place to which native Achur are "slipping away", as you put it. There is another society in the cluster that will accept them with open arms, permit them to found their own colonies, and still allow them to keep their original culture all but completely unchaged.

Of course, you know of what I speak. Many have gone there already. If you ask me, a policy that feeds manpower to your greatest enemy is a misguided one.