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Corax vs Talwar, a change is needed
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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#1 - 2014-10-26 17:35:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Hi!

The title is pretty self explanatory. Currently the Talwar has a bonus to microwarpdrive signature radius, hugely improving survivability. (Note how my forum signature suddenly gains another layer of meaning haha :D)

On the other hand, the Corax has a bonus to missile explosion velocity, which barely increases the dps on most targets given its already light missiles. The only targets really affected by that are frigates, which are going to get dunked by both ships anyway.

And I didn't yet mentionned the fact that the Corax is also significantly slower than the Talwar

So yeah... I feel like this ship has been left out on the side, in the grand scheme of things. I see really few uses where it is better to pick a corax against a talwar... One actually: Against a ship that has naturally high explosive resists.

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Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#2 - 2014-10-26 21:28:37 UTC
The corax is an artillery platform. With a full dps fit and a micro you can "maybe" kill another destroyer in 3-4 hits. I've dunked frigates in 2 volleys with one before. Iirc you can hit 2100 volley damage and with very good application.

I'm sure you've already correctly diagnosed the talwar.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#3 - 2014-10-26 22:22:20 UTC
Give corax 8 launchers, problem solved.
Ship gets good and people start using it.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#4 - 2014-10-26 22:31:58 UTC
Altrue wrote:
Hi!

The title is pretty self explanatory. Currently the Talwar has a bonus to microwarpdrive signature radius, hugely improving survivability.

On the other hand, the Corax has a bonus to missile explosion velocity, which barely increases the dps on most targets given its already light missiles. The only targets really affected by that are frigates, which are going to get dunked by both ships anyway.

And I'm didn't yet mentionned the fact that the Corax is also significantly slower than the Talwar

So yeah... I feel like this ship has been left out on the side, in the grand scheme of things. I see really few uses where it is better to pick a corax against a talwar... One actually: Against a ship that has naturally high explosive resists.



It's Caldari.

It is designed to be the worst of it's class. If it's not the worst in it's class it will be nerfed until it is.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#5 - 2014-10-26 22:44:15 UTC
Phaade wrote:
It's Caldari.

It is designed to be the worst of it's class. If it's not the worst in it's class it will be nerfed until it is.


Also quoting Metallica here 'Sad but true'. Sad

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#6 - 2014-10-26 22:53:22 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
Phaade wrote:
It's Caldari.

It is designed to be the worst of it's class. If it's not the worst in it's class it will be nerfed until it is.


Also quoting Metallica here 'Sad but true'. Sad


Sad RIP Corax / Drake / Rokh / Raven / Blackbird (when did you see one last?) / Kitsune / Phoenix (although it got better for this one recently)

This thread is getting depressing Big smile

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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#7 - 2014-10-26 23:01:07 UTC
I've found the Corax to be really awesome using Rage Rockets. Near perfect application of damage out to ~10km even with no web applied.

Frigates hate it.

Though... it could certainly use a little more tank and/or either CPU or Powergrid (fitting it is a PITA).

How did you Veterans start?
Mharius Skjem
Guardians of the Underworld
#8 - 2014-10-27 00:11:16 UTC
I remember when the lore matched the expectations in game, in both the caldari were the acknowledged missile masters and hybrids were their secondary weapons.

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Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#9 - 2014-10-27 04:49:49 UTC
Could do with some fitting love as mentioned, however the explosion velocity bonus is way more effective than you describe.

i doesnt really matter that it doesnt change the outcome of a 1v1 with a T1 frig. it makes a ****-ton of difference against an RR AF gang.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

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Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#10 - 2014-10-27 07:13:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Could do with some fitting love as mentioned, however the explosion velocity bonus is way more effective than you describe.

i doesnt really matter that it doesnt change the outcome of a 1v1 with a T1 frig. it makes a ****-ton of difference against an RR AF gang.


I don't doubt that it has some impact, but I made extensive researchs for various situations to compare the difference of damage between the two. And clearly, its nothing compared to the sig radius bonus of the talwar, same for his speed.

If at least there was another bonus to missile flight speed, maybe the corax could become somewhat viable as a sniping platform and thus be penalized less from the lack of the MWD sig radius bonus.

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Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#11 - 2014-10-27 10:03:07 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Give corax 8 launchers, problem solved.
Ship gets good and people start using it.


I've always voted for caldari getting application bonuses over raw damage but in this case it could be warranted. Isn't the corax literally the least tanky destroyer. The ONLY thing it has going for it right now is the explosion radius reduction.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#12 - 2014-10-27 10:25:20 UTC
I also feel after many years of use that the caracal, cerberus, raven, tengu and phoenix could do with having any ROF or damage bonus consolidated in to a sigR reduction instead. To create uniformity across the caldari ship line and to help position caldari ships as the strongest missile race. Being shield tanked and using missiles where fitting target painters or webs to increase applied damage or otherwise needing fleetmates is quite hamfisted compared to say a naga which can fit double sebo triple tc and a micro in order to stay in a position where damage can be delivered reliably.

People will of course cry about the idea especially in fleet situations wherein I state simply: drugz. Links. The two most common things in solo combat.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-10-27 11:28:24 UTC
It's almost like the Corax was designed to be better at hitting fast ships that often sit outside of web range. What an entirely usele... oh, wait.

Not all ships are general purpose, who knew.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#14 - 2014-10-27 11:32:37 UTC
Ix Method wrote:
It's almost like the Corax was designed to be better at hitting fast ships that often sit outside of web range. What an entirely usele... oh, wait.

Not all ships are general purpose, who knew.


Nice theory, clearly doesn't hold water when faced with statistics.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#15 - 2014-10-27 11:46:19 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
I've found the Corax to be really awesome using Rage Rockets. Near perfect application of damage out to ~10km even with no web applied.

Frigates hate it.

Though... it could certainly use a little more tank and/or either CPU or Powergrid (fitting it is a PITA).

not that muchBig smile
agreed though, coax is one of the coolest looking ships in eve, it needs some love.

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Ix Method
Doomheim
#16 - 2014-10-27 11:55:04 UTC
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
It's almost like the Corax was designed to be better at hitting fast ships that often sit outside of web range. What an entirely usele... oh, wait.

Not all ships are general purpose, who knew.

Nice theory, clearly doesn't hold water when faced with statistics.

Except it does, because maths. I'd like it to be easier to fit an MSE sure but to suggest it's effectively worthless? Please.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Caleb Seremshur
Bloodhorn
Patchwork Freelancers
#17 - 2014-10-27 13:29:47 UTC
The corax is the least used destroyer for a reason. Yes it needs more fitting space. Fringe cases (popping fw farmers) aside, got any evidence to back up why literally every other destroyer ship has a doctrine built around it but the corax does not?
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#18 - 2014-10-27 15:26:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Stitch Kaneland
Caleb Seremshur wrote:
The corax is the least used destroyer for a reason. Yes it needs more fitting space. Fringe cases (popping fw farmers) aside, got any evidence to back up why literally every other destroyer ship has a doctrine built around it but the corax does not?


I see roaming corax gangs quite regularly. The alpha/application for them vollies frigs off field. Very good anti tackle. Which... isnt that what destroyers are meant to do?

Plus in gangs with 10-12 of em, cruisers have to weary as well.

Now to the OP, you're comparing minny and caldari. Caldari seem to be more shield fleet/gang orientated. While minny is solo/speed orientated.

Minny/gallente have more ships that are easier to solo in than caldari and amarr. What minny and gal dont have are the EHP buffers of caldari and amarr. Making caldari good fleet/gang doctrines, like moas, eagle, rokh, caracals etc. You will very rarely have a fast caldari ship, except the Osprey NI.

I will agree that the corax could use a bit more fitting, and maybe gaining some more shield HP.

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#19 - 2014-10-27 15:41:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
if the corax is the least used destroyer, its because the others destroyers are also in a very good position.

i also see corax's used regularly and friends of mine solo in them.

edit- if you only use the 'least used of its type' and the 'most used of its type' as a way of measuring balance you will eventually homogenize everything (which is kinda whats been happening) and that sucks.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#20 - 2014-10-27 16:52:42 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
if the corax is the least used destroyer, its because the others destroyers are also in a very good position.

i also see corax's used regularly and friends of mine solo in them.

edit- if you only use the 'least used of its type' and the 'most used of its type' as a way of measuring balance you will eventually homogenize everything (which is kinda whats been happening) and that sucks.



What? Why would you homogenize everything? That makes no sense. If something is massively underused compared with the other racial ships in it's class (like the old prophecy), it's because it's not balanced. It's really, really simple.

Notice how many of the ships in the Alliance Tournament were Gallente? Hmm....drones online?

The Corax is only better than the Talwar in extremely niche situations. The explosion radius bonus only helps with rage missiles, which won't ever apply to MWD frigates anyway (esp. AF's). It's also slow as hell.
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