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Passive shield tanking questions?
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Heather Austrene
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-10-24 01:12:00 UTC
I have read in a number of places that power shield relays and shield extenders should be used in favor of any other tanking modules. I'm just not seeing that when I look at different fits in EFT.

Currently I'm looking at refitting my Hurricane Fleet Issue to the following in a few days when I can fit the T2 arty for the purpose of L4 missions and perhaps incursions (if I join a corp that runs them). Hopefully this can keep me happy as a mission runner while I train frigate and cruiser skills for pvp. I don't want to train BS's and will probably eventually aim for a tengu as a better mission runner although it will require me to change racial specialization, I understand the Loki/Vagabond isn't so suited for the task.


[Hurricane Fleet Issue, Hurricane Fleet - Mission T2]
Damage Control II
Tracking Enhancer II
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Republic Fleet 10MN Afterburner
Republic Fleet Large Shield Extender
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
EM Ward Field II

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, EMP M
Drone Link Augmentor II
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Purger II
Medium Core Defense Field Purger II
Medium Core Defense Field Purger II

Now if I swap the DC for a another shield power relay, the shield recharge rate only increases from 235 to 271, but my EHP drops from 62043 to 46127. I don't see how that is a good trade-off. Comparisons based on "all level V."

Swapping a mission specific harder for a LSE seems to have totally detrimental effect. In the omnitank configuration above, swapping the AIF for a LSE actually drops both shield recharge rate and EHP. Besides the fact that while it is theoretically possible I can't fit it with my current skills.

Anyone running L3 missions none of this tank is necessary. I run those in a ship with only a LSE and the two mission specific hardeners. All the other slots can be used for gank and speed.

I was also looking at rate of fire rig, with two purgers, which then have to be tech 1 to fit. But its not clear if the slight improvement in gank is worth the loss of shield recharge rate.
Jon Illat
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#2 - 2014-10-24 06:02:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jon Illat
Depends on what rats you're facing. You can change the damage profile in EFT to suit the incoming damage type, which will give you a much more accurate shield recharge rat than an Omni-resist profile. If you're facing Angel rats, three LSEs, an AB and 3 shield relay things gives you more than enough tank, while allowing for two gyros and a TE.

T1 rigs should be more than enough, but T2 rigs will be nice.

Also, just a side note. The Hurricane is actually better than the Hurricane Fleet Issue for passive tanking, as it gets a higher base shield regen. As you're not using the extra highslot, the Hurricane would be the best best IMO.

As for a DCU vs shield relay. Most of the bonus EHP from the DCU is going to be from the structure and armour bonuses, and the extra EHP for the shields isn't worth the drop in passive tank from a shield relay.

Oh, and from personal experience? ACs are a lot handier than arty for lv3s and lv4s, and if you want to go down the arty path, 650's will be a lot faster.

Source: Used to run missions, used a passive tanked 'cane for lv3s.
Luwc
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2014-10-24 06:57:22 UTC
"I have read in a number of places that power shield relays and shield extenders should be used in favor of any other tanking modules"

who the **** told you that lol ?

whats up next. you gotta be crap stable ... ?

in a nutshell. drop the dcu it gives ****** shield bonuses anyway. you are better off with a better recharge rate and specific hardeners.

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif
Chris Winter
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse
The Curatores Veritatis Auxiliary
#4 - 2014-10-24 07:03:55 UTC
Heather Austrene wrote:
...and perhaps incursions (if I join a corp that runs them)...I don't want to train BS's

Unless you train battleships, you won't be running incursions. Incursion fleets only take battleships--preferably shiny pirate battleships.

Quote:

Now if I swap the DC for a another shield power relay, the shield recharge rate only increases from 235 to 271, but my EHP drops from 62043 to 46127. I don't see how that is a good trade-off. Comparisons based on "all level V."

It's a good trade off because with very few exceptions, buffer doesn't matter for PvE. What matters is how much you regen. If, for example, there's 260 incoming DPS, your 62043 EHP doesn't matter since it will eventually overwhelm your tank. If you'd instead had a peak regen of 271 EHP/s, you would've survived regardless of your EHP.

Also, a damage control adds the majority of its EHP in armor and structure, which doesn't help you at all if you're shield tanking in PvE, since you really don't want to be getting into armor or structure.

Things get more complicated when taking into account what NPCs you're fighting--if you're fighting a bunch of NPCs where some in the group do a lot of damage but die quick, then more buffer is important so you can shrug off their damage at the start of the wave and then regen while killing the things that take longer to kill but do less damage.
Heather Austrene
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2014-10-24 07:12:22 UTC
Jon Illat wrote:
Depends on what rats you're facing. You can change the damage profile in EFT to suit the incoming damage type, which will give you a much more accurate shield recharge rat than an Omni-resist profile. If you're facing Angel rats, three LSEs, an AB and 3 shield relay things gives you more than enough tank, while allowing for two gyros and a TE.

T1 rigs should be more than enough, but T2 rigs will be nice.

Also, just a side note. The Hurricane is actually better than the Hurricane Fleet Issue for passive tanking, as it gets a higher base shield regen. As you're not using the extra highslot, the Hurricane would be the best best IMO.

As for a DCU vs shield relay. Most of the bonus EHP from the DCU is going to be from the structure and armour bonuses, and the extra EHP for the shields isn't worth the drop in passive tank from a shield relay.

Oh, and from personal experience? ACs are a lot handier than arty for lv3s and lv4s, and if you want to go down the arty path, 650's will be a lot faster.

Source: Used to run missions, used a passive tanked 'cane for lv3s.


Interesting about the shield recharge rate cane vs cane fi, although in the configuration you suggested the fleet version has roughly 2500 shields to begin with, and 9000 more ehp in total while providing 232 vs 216 in recharge rate. With AC it doesn't matter, but with arty the extra cpu/pg is a factor when fitting the ship.

From my experience arty is much faster than AC in a hurricane. The ship is too slow to chase down all the spread out rats in many missions to close with the range of AC. While arty can inflict reasonable damage to the limit of targeting range around 60km, especially handy in missions with stasis towers and the like. Normally kite/orbit around the 35 optimal using titanium sabot and receive much less incoming dps. I still up in the air about the 720 vs 650 arty. The 720 has more dps but the rate of fire is agonizingly slow. It can usually pop frigates in one shot though, unless they get under 10km in which case it can't hit them at all.

I also run L3's in a stabber fleet issue, with this ship I do use AC, since the ship is more maneuverable.
Heather Austrene
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2014-10-24 07:24:49 UTC
Luwc wrote:
"I have read in a number of places that power shield relays and shield extenders should be used in favor of any other tanking modules"

who the **** told you that lol ?



should have been more specific, When passive tanking specifically. That these modules should be used instead of DC and hardeners.

Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-10-24 08:53:52 UTC
Depends largely on your shield skills. At maximum shield capacity and recharge LSEs only start loosing out to a second Invuln after two or three LSEs. Depending mainly on the recharge rate of the ship and it's base capacity. T2 LSEs are btw better than RF LSEs, same stats, same fitting, way lower cost.

DCUs are underrated. While they don't give the raw recharge as SPRs, their increased resists usually makes up for that. It also is more useful than a SPR in case you **** up and **** hits the fan. They also don't nerf cap regen, which is nice.

The Fleet Cane isn't something I'd specifically passive tank. Not enough mids for my taste.
Then again I can't fly projectiles for the life of mine so yeah ...
Mooh Bear
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#8 - 2014-10-24 19:08:50 UTC
One thing to remember when passive tanking is signature bloat. The LSE and the shield rigs cause a signature increase, meaning you'll take more damage compared to an active set-up. I don't know how much, but it's not insignificant.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#9 - 2014-10-24 20:43:04 UTC
Mooh Bear wrote:
One thing to remember when passive tanking is signature bloat. The LSE and the shield rigs cause a signature increase, meaning you'll take more damage compared to an active set-up. I don't know how much, but it's not insignificant.

On a battle cruiser, it is a fairly whooping number for the battleships, with the tank increasing by 20-30% in buffer, and a little more than that in recharge, it will typically take 40-50% more damage from the battleships as it nears and then exceeds the maximum signature resolution on the NPC guns and missiles.

Seconding the "Incursions are almost exclusively battleships" sentiment, with rare exceptions, the DPS is entirely battleships with a very few communities running t3s to drone bunny.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#10 - 2014-10-25 03:34:17 UTC
Heather Austrene wrote:
...I still up in the air about the 720 vs 650 arty. The 720 has more dps but the rate of fire is agonizingly slow. It can usually pop frigates in one shot though, unless they get under 10km in which case it can't hit them at all.


One could almost assume that both ships were not designed to shoot NPCs.

Sad what were those barbariens thinking?

And a long range gun having trouble shooting stuff at close range.. Hm... what to do.. If only there were a thingy that would slow down a ship so your ship could aim better.

Nah, what am I saying, a module that creates a stasis field around the ship you are shooting? Would something like this even be possible?
Imagine the possibilties with such a thing Shocked

Don't listen to me, I always imagine things...

But on the matter of passive shield tanking, the Nighthawk can reach an impressive "recharge tank" that can hold up to 1000dps omni-damage.

I did run a level 5 mission somewhere in lowsec when they were new but it took a while to complete (neutralizing towers are bad for everyone) because I did have to warp out a few times before the tank could handle the incoming damage.
If think it was "Wrath of Angels".

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Heather Austrene
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2014-10-25 13:04:19 UTC
Playing around with EFT I came with this as the best passive tank/arty cane fi fit I could come up with. Limiting myself to modules that cost less than the hull and only used faction/deadspace when they were significantly better than the t2 versions.

Theoretical as i don't want to pimp a battlecruiser this much, and I would have some trouble fitting the missile launchers and 720's at the same time with my current fitting skills.

[Hurricane Fleet Issue, Hurricane Fleet - Mission Ver 3]
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Beta Reactor Control: Shield Power Relay I
Tracking Enhancer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Corelum C-Type 10MN Afterburner
Large Shield Extender II
Pith A-Type EM Ward Field
Pith A-Type Thermic Dissipation Field

720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
720mm Howitzer Artillery II, Republic Fleet Titanium Sabot M
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Light Missile
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Mjolnir Light Missile

Medium Core Defense Field Purger II
Medium Core Defense Field Purger II
Medium Core Defense Field Purger II

Hornet II x5