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Intergalactic Summit

 
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Federation: Have We Lost Ourselves?
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Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#81 - 2014-11-05 17:44:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Antolliere
Bataav wrote:


Independence, offers a better chance that the people of Intaki will get the governance they actually vote for. Not just some of the time, but all of the time.

Is this not a good representation of what the Federation is supposed to stand for? Responsibility and accountability to and of the people? Would the Federation not look to their new neighbour and be proud to see what had been achieved?

Or is power more important to Villore than principle?


While you have touched on many important points Monsieur Bataav, it is this particular part that I wished to address.

The Federation should be proud of what an independent Intaki could represent in terms of democracy and it should be proud that the Intaki people would seek to adapt democracy as their form of governance because ultimately the spread of democracy is the spread of an ideal; the ideal that a group of people are entitled rights and values that enable them to elect their own governance and govern themselves in their own best interests.

As to whether or not the Federation would be proud in its current form? I cannot say. What I can say is there are those of us who would seek to see the integrity of the Federation upheld and we are not few in number.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Dessau
The Scope
#82 - 2014-11-05 18:06:52 UTC
Bataav wrote:
Is this not a good representation of what the Federation is supposed to stand for? Responsibility and accountability to and of the people? Would the Federation not look to their new neighbour and be proud to see what had been achieved?

Or is power more important to Villore than principle?

In my view, you have touched on the issue precisely. One need only view the Constitution with regard to governance during the Sixth Union to recognize that we are in the twilight of 'principle'.
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2014-11-05 21:01:13 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:

Obeying priests: bad. Obeying people with certain tribal tattoos: good
Enslaving terrorists: bad. Imprisoning terrorists: good
Whipping as punishment: bad. Firing squad as punishment: good

And for this, I would like to add, that enslaved terrorists probably have way greater options, abilities and priveleges than imprisoned terrorists.
As for punishment, I again would like to remind, that gallenteans torture Caldari (except Ishukone) POWs with severe physical mutilations, which are way worse than whipping, and just for these POWs were doing their duty, defending their homeland from gallentean occupants.
One more word about whipping, back in the academy days I was whipped a lot, and, I assure you, I would choose it any day instead of facing a firing squad.


I must commend you Ms Kim for a well spoken response. I knew you could keep yourself from going into your typical diatribe.
Cuci Cairi
#84 - 2014-11-05 21:50:18 UTC
Yes, it has. There are many of us that would consider coming home if we felt there was a home to return to.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#85 - 2014-11-06 18:30:04 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:

Obeying priests: bad. Obeying people with certain tribal tattoos: good
Enslaving terrorists: bad. Imprisoning terrorists: good
Whipping as punishment: bad. Firing squad as punishment: good

And for this, I would like to add, that enslaved terrorists probably have way greater options, abilities and priveleges than imprisoned terrorists.
As for punishment, I again would like to remind, that gallenteans torture Caldari (except Ishukone) POWs with severe physical mutilations, which are way worse than whipping, and just for these POWs were doing their duty, defending their homeland from gallentean occupants.
One more word about whipping, back in the academy days I was whipped a lot, and, I assure you, I would choose it any day instead of facing a firing squad.


I must commend you Ms Kim for a well spoken response. I knew you could keep yourself from going into your typical diatribe.

Please don't do that.
I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#86 - 2014-11-06 18:31:42 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Caviar Liberta wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Merdaneth wrote:

Obeying priests: bad. Obeying people with certain tribal tattoos: good
Enslaving terrorists: bad. Imprisoning terrorists: good
Whipping as punishment: bad. Firing squad as punishment: good

And for this, I would like to add, that enslaved terrorists probably have way greater options, abilities and priveleges than imprisoned terrorists.
As for punishment, I again would like to remind, that gallenteans torture Caldari (except Ishukone) POWs with severe physical mutilations, which are way worse than whipping, and just for these POWs were doing their duty, defending their homeland from gallentean occupants.
One more word about whipping, back in the academy days I was whipped a lot, and, I assure you, I would choose it any day instead of facing a firing squad.


I must commend you Ms Kim for a well spoken response. I knew you could keep yourself from going into your typical diatribe.

Please don't do that.
I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.


If you were to find yourself agreeing with a Gallentian that would be a suitable course of action, I agree.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#87 - 2014-11-06 18:39:42 UTC
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Please don't do that.
I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.


If you were to find yourself agreeing with a Gallentian that would be a suitable course of action, I agree.

STOP.
THAT.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Claudia Osyn
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#88 - 2014-11-06 21:06:21 UTC
Diana Kim wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Please don't do that.
I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.


If you were to find yourself agreeing with a Gallentian that would be a suitable course of action, I agree.

STOP.
THAT.

I concur, you should stop that Mr. Marellus.

A little trust goes a long way. The less you use, the further you'll go.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#89 - 2014-11-06 23:12:18 UTC
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Please don't do that.
I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.


If you were to find yourself agreeing with a Gallentian that would be a suitable course of action, I agree.

STOP.
THAT.

I concur, you should stop that Mr. Marellus.


Definitely agree. It is immoral of us to tempt Mademoiselle Kim in such a way.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#90 - 2014-11-06 23:30:52 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Claudia Osyn wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:
Caellach Marellus wrote:
Diana Kim wrote:

Please don't do that.
I am almost trying to reach my sidegun to blow my brains out because a frog has agreed with me.


If you were to find yourself agreeing with a Gallentian that would be a suitable course of action, I agree.

STOP.
THAT.

I concur, you should stop that Mr. Marellus.


Definitely agree. It is immoral of us to tempt Mademoiselle Kim in such a way.


So we're all in agreement with Captain Kim? Noted.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.
Axton Tomas
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2014-11-10 03:27:32 UTC
I guess I'm late to this discussion. I suppose I should keep it short, then.

To the original speaker, you are absolutely right that freedom is not free. You are also right when you say that ideals must be kept in mind, but be careful about wandering too close to decrying the state of things. If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#92 - 2014-11-10 04:24:06 UTC
Axton Tomas wrote:
I guess I'm late to this discussion. I suppose I should keep it short, then.

To the original speaker, you are absolutely right that freedom is not free. You are also right when you say that ideals must be kept in mind, but be careful about wandering too close to decrying the state of things. If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying.


Nothing like objective and reasoned discourse. And this was nothing like objective and reasoned discourse.

Hey, Federation man! Wake up! In many respects your best is worse than our worst. You do other things worse than the Amarr and, yes, many things worse than the Republic. You, and I mean you in particular, not just you as a people, have MUCH that you could be doing to make things better EVEN NOW, if you would just take your eye off acquiring other people's space and things and look to improving your own.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Gwen Ikiryo
Alexylva Paradox
#93 - 2014-11-10 04:43:14 UTC
Axton Tomas wrote:
I guess I'm late to this discussion. I suppose I should keep it short, then.

To the original speaker, you are absolutely right that freedom is not free. You are also right when you say that ideals must be kept in mind, but be careful about wandering too close to decrying the state of things. If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying.


Mister Tomas,

You would likely avoid the criticism of men like Pieter if you would be more specific about what qualities you consider the Federation to possess that set it above all other nations - There are certainly some objective ones, and likely many more depending on the values of the individual passing judgement. but if you simply speak in general terms, you'll only get people riled up.

Also, it is healthy for a society to be internally critical, even perhaps to not wholly justified extremes. Remember that reason and justice withers in the face of blind patriotism.
Diana Kim
Kenshin Katana.
United Caldari Space Command.
#94 - 2014-11-10 08:09:12 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:

Also, it is healthy for a society to be internally critical, even perhaps to not wholly justified extremes. Remember that reason and justice withers in the face of blind patriotism.

Ms. Ikiryo, yet I prefer Caldari patriotism, which is, actually, based on reason and justice: my claims are backed with reason, and my demands are demands for justice.

The justice would be to give them what they give to us. Two hundred years ago they bombed and occupied our home planet, but we haven't done yet the same with their home planet. And I like it a lot to remind this to gallenteans and suggest to them, that their homeworld should be bombed for them to understand us. They usually reply with lots of insults, calling me names, accuse in murder, genocide, even "child killing". And for what? For just my WORDS about bombing their gallente prime. This is a typical example of gallentean hypocrisy, showing their faces to the whole cluster. Because my words remain just words, and their bombing of Caldari Prime was accomplished fact, for which the justice wasn't given yet.

Of course, we can't give justice to those, who died already, but we can fix their mistakes. We can return what is ours, and secure our property by nullify the charter that stole and constantly threatens our world and way of life. And what we should do, is return justice for our current situation, not for what happened 200 years ago.
For example, if gallenteans insist on occupying half of our Caldari Prime, we should occupy half of their Gallente Prime.
And justice for this Operation Highlander must be delivered. All those, who were guilty in this war crime, must be detained and punished accordingly, by laws of war time.

Honored are the dead, for their legacy guides us.

In memory of Tibus Heth, Caldari State Executor YC110-115, Hero and Patriot.
Liam Antolliere
Doomheim
#95 - 2014-11-10 12:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Antolliere
Axton Tomas wrote:
I guess I'm late to this discussion. I suppose I should keep it short, then.

To the original speaker, you are absolutely right that freedom is not free. You are also right when you say that ideals must be kept in mind, but be careful about wandering too close to decrying the state of things. If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying.


You mistake "decrying" for "awareness" and "caution," monsieur.

Since when do we settle for less than our best? Why justify a crumbling state of affairs with statements like "our worst is better than the best others have to offer?" (Whether or not that's true is a discussion for a different venue at a different time).

I'm not interested in comparing the Federation to other empires around the cluster. I'm interested in contrasting where the Federation is from where it could (and I would argue "should") be. We should not be settling for anything less than the best we have to offer. Democracy is worth it but more importantly, the people under the protection and provision of our democracy are worth it.

"Though the people may hate me, that does not relieve me of my charge."
Andreus Ixiris
Duty.
Stay Feral
#96 - 2014-11-10 14:29:19 UTC
Mssr. Antolliere has the right of it, I think - cultural and social progress is not produced by complacency. It is not by any means acceptable to merely be "not as bad as the others." That you are the best simply because others are a step behind is not sufficient.

We cannot make a perfect Federation, but we owe it to ourselves to make the best Federation possible.

Andreus Ixiris > A Civire without a chin is barely a Civire at all.

Pieter Tuulinen > He'd be Civirely disadvantaged, Andreus.

Andreus Ixiris > ...

Andreus Ixiris > This is why we're at war.
Tyrel Toov
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#97 - 2014-11-10 17:17:16 UTC
so, we can all agree to vote Liam for prez now?

I want to paint my ship Periwinkle.
Pieter Tuulinen
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#98 - 2014-11-10 18:56:43 UTC
Tyrel Toov wrote:
so, we can all agree to vote Liam for prez now?


10/10 - Would negotiate peace treaty with administration of.

For the first time since I started the conversation, he looks me dead in the eye. In his gaze are steel jackhammers, quiet vengeance, a hundred thousand orbital bombs frozen in still life.
Axton Tomas
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2014-11-10 22:55:51 UTC
Liam Antolliere wrote:
Axton Tomas wrote:
I guess I'm late to this discussion. I suppose I should keep it short, then.

To the original speaker, you are absolutely right that freedom is not free. You are also right when you say that ideals must be kept in mind, but be careful about wandering too close to decrying the state of things. If you glance around at others that inhabit the cluster, our absolute worst is better than their best with the notable exception of the Republic. Do we have improvements to make, courses to right? Absolutely. But I think this is far from 'losing our way' or other wholesale decrying.


You mistake "decrying" for "awareness" and "caution," monsieur.

Since when do we settle for less than our best? Why justify a crumbling state of affairs with statements like "our worst is better than the best others have to offer?" (Whether or not that's true is a discussion for a different venue at a different time).

I'm not interested in comparing the Federation to other empires around the cluster. I'm interested in contrasting where the Federation is from where it could (and I would argue "should") be. We should not be settling for anything less than the best we have to offer. Democracy is worth it but more importantly, the people under the protection and provision of our democracy are worth it.


If you are not interested in comparison, perhaps an Intergalactic Summit is not the place? Using a public venue open to the peanut gallery is not the place, in my opinion, for open questions about the areas where we have failed to uphold our ideals.

You'll note that I agreed that we have much to work on, improvements to make, courses to change. But I referred to it as decrying because it was a public statement of our failures - inviting anyone and everyone to comment. The public nature of it is what makes it 'decrying,' from my perspective. Those who are not Federation citizens do not have opinions worth hearing on our internal affairs. We are not diplomats that are bound by the necessities of our job description to value the opinions of those that do not even remotely value the ideals you and I both agree we have not properly upheld. So why discuss it with them?

There is little substance of what you have said that I disagree with. I simply do not see the benefit of discussing our dirty laundry in mixed company in the same way citizens of the other nations are prone to do in this Summit.
Axton Tomas
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2014-11-10 22:58:01 UTC
Gwen Ikiryo wrote:

Also, it is healthy for a society to be internally critical, even perhaps to not wholly justified extremes. Remember that reason and justice withers in the face of blind patriotism.


Yes, internally critical.

As for the criticism of non-citizens, I have little interest in what they have to say. I clearly targeted my reply at the original poster.