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In simplest terms, what is wrong with EVE

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#601 - 2014-10-29 16:11:11 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
High sec will never be completely safe, and anyone who tries to either convince newbies that it is, or tries to make it so is the enemy of EVE.
Not to mention a griefer of the worst kind.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#602 - 2014-10-29 16:34:12 UTC
Omar Alharazaad wrote:
And to answer your previous question. No, I have not taken any economics courses. Why? Because that **** doesn't interest me enough for me to spend MY money on it. Nor shall I take one in order to validate my opinions when it comes to an internet game. Being as you yourself have repeatedly failed to provide proofs or datum when it comes to your own unfounded statements of truth, I see no reason why I should be required to do so in response to your own doubts regarding my own observations when it comes to the EVE universe.


If you had taken one (and I certainly suggest that you do, it's certainly an eye opening experience) you would understand the concept of rational behavior in an economic sense.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#603 - 2014-10-29 16:39:41 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:


Interestingly, I work for an investment management company IRL, and the economy in-game would do horrible, horrible things if Veers had his way.

As far as CCP's revenue goes, it would start to quickly dry up if Veers had his way. "Trying to be everything to everyone leads to any company's downfall". That is a basic tenant in growing a company IRL. You look for companies that find a niche and stay true to it, no matter what. Companies who dilute their brand by trying to go for mass-appeal to all markets end up in price wars to the bottom of the barrel, if they survive at all.

For a company to cater to two audiences, you create a second brand name under the same shell company (ie, CCP releases a second game not tied to EVE in any way).

I have to wonder if HE has ever studied economics.


Eh....I'm something of a finance whiz, and well....you are wrong.

Imagine for a moment a pretty radical change (and for the record I don't support this change) - the removal of all non-consensual PvP from highsec. Would that really deep six the game? I mean the folks who live in low/null/wh would carry on as usual, PvPing away. Highsec PvE would be totally safe, but so what? It's pretty darn safe already for those who know what they are doing?

Would the game radically change? I'm pretty skeptical. Sure, CODE would disband and few tens or hundreds of other gankers would need to find a new job. But so what? I see no reason to believe that the game would come crashing down.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#604 - 2014-10-29 16:47:18 UTC
im not an economist but i assume there would be more minerals and stuff on the market because no one was stopping afk miners from collecting it.

This would bring down the market value of items derived from minerals becuase there would be more available.

would this in turn decrease the value of plex? becuase stuff would be cheaper. would that hurt ccp?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#605 - 2014-10-29 16:53:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
Bastion Arzi wrote:
im not an economist but i assume there would be more minerals and stuff on the market because no one was stopping afk miners from collecting it.

This would bring down the market value of items derived from minerals becuase there would be more available.

would this in turn decrease the value of plex? becuase stuff would be cheaper. would that hurt ccp?


Excessive mining would flood Eve with cheap minerals which would deflate all Eve commodities, while inflating Plex prices....which is......exactly what is happening right now.

It turns out that suicide ganking is not an effective way to stop massed ISBox/bot mining.

Edit - Plex must inflate because it can be purchased with $$$, which means that since stuff is less rare it must be worth less in $$$ terms, and hence the ISK price of Plex must rise.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#606 - 2014-10-29 16:55:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Bastion Arzi
so more minerals on the market is hurting people who try to buy plex to using isk increase their game time?

why does it inflate plex prices?
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#607 - 2014-10-29 16:55:12 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Eh....I'm something of a finance whiz, and well....you are wrong.

Imagine for a moment a pretty radical change (and for the record I don't support this change) - the removal of all non-consensual PvP from highsec. Would that really deep six the game? I mean the folks who live in low/null/wh would carry on as usual, PvPing away. Highsec PvE would be totally safe, but so what? It's pretty darn safe already for those who know what they are doing?

Would the game radically change? I'm pretty skeptical. Sure, CODE would disband and few tens or hundreds of other gankers would need to find a new job. But so what? I see no reason to believe that the game would come crashing down.


I would be more than happy to compare real life qualifications if you would like.

Regarding the in-game economy, do you think the US economy could have recovered from the great depression so quickly if not for WWII's positive domestic effect?

Regarding CCP's income, let me ask it in a different way.

Why are Bentley, Audi and Volkswagen three different brands, even though they are owned and operated by the same company? What would current Bentley drivers do if a Volkswagen tag suddenly showed up on their cars and they had to buy them at a Volkswagen dealership?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#608 - 2014-10-29 16:58:18 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:


I would be more than happy to compare real life qualifications if you would like.


Would love to - how would you like to do it?

Quote:


Regarding the in-game economy, do you think the US economy could have recovered from the great depression so quickly if not for WWII's positive domestic effect?

Regarding CCP's income, let me ask it in a different way.

Why are Bentley, Audi and Volkswagen three different brands, even though they are owned and operated by the same company? What would current Bentley drivers do if a Volkswagen tag suddenly showed up on their cars and they had to buy them at a Volkswagen dealership?



I don't think you are getting it. My point is that the highsec ganking economy has a minimal impact on global gameplay. Therefore tweaks to it, or removing it entirely, would not materially affect the game or its "brand."
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#609 - 2014-10-29 17:03:06 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I don't think you are getting it. My point is that the highsec ganking economy has a minimal impact on global gameplay. Therefore tweaks to it, or removing it entirely, would not materially affect the game or its "brand."


Yes it would becuase as u said the influx of cheap commodities would drive the isk price of plex up. so people who plex thier accounts will no longer be able to play becuase they will not make enough isk per month any more for that to be viable.

Those poeple who do that are probably at thier computers playing the game trying hard to earn that isk.

but your in support of people who are AFK not really playing the game and whose activities are making playing the game unviable for people who use isk to plex thier accounts.

is that corrrect?
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#610 - 2014-10-29 17:06:03 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Petre en Thielles wrote:


I would be more than happy to compare real life qualifications if you would like.


Would love to - how would you like to do it?

Quote:


Regarding the in-game economy, do you think the US economy could have recovered from the great depression so quickly if not for WWII's positive domestic effect?

Regarding CCP's income, let me ask it in a different way.

Why are Bentley, Audi and Volkswagen three different brands, even though they are owned and operated by the same company? What would current Bentley drivers do if a Volkswagen tag suddenly showed up on their cars and they had to buy them at a Volkswagen dealership?



I don't think you are getting it. My point is that the highsec ganking economy has a minimal impact on global gameplay. Therefore tweaks to it, or removing it entirely, would not materially affect the game or its "brand."


Can you answer my two questions? Interesting how you seem to struggle with answering direct questions. I will ask again.

1. Regarding the in-game economy, do you think the US economy could have recovered from the great depression so quickly if not for WWII's positive domestic effect?

2. Why are Bentley, Audi and Volkswagen three different brands, even though they are owned and operated by the same company? What would current Bentley drivers do if a Volkswagen tag suddenly showed up on their cars and they had to buy them at a Volkswagen dealership?

We can compare real life credentials by seeing if you can intelligently answer those two simple questions.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#611 - 2014-10-29 17:07:05 UTC
Bastion Arzi wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
I don't think you are getting it. My point is that the highsec ganking economy has a minimal impact on global gameplay. Therefore tweaks to it, or removing it entirely, would not materially affect the game or its "brand."


Yes it would becuase as u said the influx of cheap commodities would drive the isk price of plex up. so people who plex thier accounts will no longer be able to play becuase they will not make enough isk per month any more for that to be viable.

Those poeple who do that are probably at thier computers playing the game trying hard to earn that isk.

but your in support of people who are AFK not really playing the game and whose activities are making playing the game unviable for people who use isk to plex thier accounts.

is that corrrect?




Miscommunication. THIS IS HAPPENING ALREADY.

Plex prices are already shooting up, and everything else is deflating. All suicide ganking is doing is hurting and driving off the new/casual players. As far as the isboxers/isbotters are concerned it's just a minor cost of doing business. In fact, CODE has essentially given up on ganking miners because they realize that they have no hope of actually curtailing mining....now they are focused on haulers and incursion runners, though in both cases they will once again hit the casual players while not impeding the boxers/botters.
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#612 - 2014-10-29 17:09:31 UTC
but u are in support of this market crash?
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#613 - 2014-10-29 17:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
@ Petre en Thielles The Volkswagen Audi group also own the Bugatti, Lamborghini, Seat and Skoda brands if you want to expand the question a bit.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#614 - 2014-10-29 17:14:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Veers Belvar
Petre en Thielles wrote:


Can you answer my two questions? Interesting how you seem to struggle with answering direct questions. I will ask again.

1. Regarding the in-game economy, do you think the US economy could have recovered from the great depression so quickly if not for WWII's positive domestic effect?

2. Why are Bentley, Audi and Volkswagen three different brands, even though they are owned and operated by the same company? What would current Bentley drivers do if a Volkswagen tag suddenly showed up on their cars and they had to buy them at a Volkswagen dealership?

We can compare real life credentials by seeing if you can intelligently answer those two simple questions.


1. I'm not a Keynsian. I think World War II had multiple positive economic impacts. The biggest of which was removing millions of unemployable young men from the labor marker by drafting them into military service, where many were then killed, radically reducing the unemployment rate. I don't think that the economy was aided by Paul Krugman style military stimulus spending. If anything, that whole line of thought has been shown to be a fabrication by the current inability of the world to spend itself out of crisis. I happen to believe that the depression was starting to wane anyway by the late 30s, and that a generalized recovery was in the offing regardless. Another helpful point was that the country was not saddled with massive deficits and health and pension obligations like it is today.

2. Brand differentiation. People tend to have (irrational) loyalty to a particular brand (people still buy american cars!), and automakers are able to capture thousands of dollars of economic rent per vehicle by slapping their brand name on it. The Bentley drivers would freak out if their brand name changed, even if the underlying vehicle remained the EXACT SAME. For example, despite being the exact same cars, Chevy Prisms always sold at a significant discount to Toyota Corollas.
Nevil Oscillator
#615 - 2014-10-29 17:15:40 UTC
I'm not convinced that any of this thread is true
IIshira
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#616 - 2014-10-29 17:28:58 UTC
Aeon Plex wrote:
I wanted to share quickly what I see as wrong with EVE, and what is so amazingly right, at the same time.

Over the last month, the price of the Garmur has dropped drastically. This is awesome as I've been waiting to get one!

So last night I got a Garmur. Looked up fits and made one I liked. I took it out for a spin and the second I undocked from jita every single person wanted a duel. I was finally hailed to convo by a 9 year old character asking if I wanted to duel.

"Sure I said, but only to hull, as I just bought this and I haven't had a proper fight in it yet."

They agreed, more than once, and I was very very clear. But were busy, and kept putting off he fight, so I logged for the night.

Tonight I jump on, and a few minutes later I'm hailed again by this 9 yr old character. They ask if I would like to duel to hull, and I say sure!

We fly to planet 1, and they ask if they can test the range on their fit, and I'm happy to oblige. They ask me to stop orbiting them so they can check range, and so I do, and then they fly to 0, and kill my Garmur without hesitation, then blink off the conversation we had been having for about an hour.

Now you may say to yourself, "well, duh! Next time don't trust anyone in EVE!"

but honestly that's what he said, so don't be an idiot.

Let's be clear. Losing an 80 mil ISK ship isn't going to bankrupt me or ruin my experience in EVE.

I can see it ruining someone else's experience though, and that's what I want to express. This person had nothing to gain, not even a killmail from killing my Garmur. Doing this kind of thing, is what makes people leave this game. And maybe that's what someone like him wants.

If it had been a fair fight and he had kept going past hull, I wouldn't have minded all that much, but there was no honor, and no sportsmanship at all. In the end, I really just ended up feeling sorry for this guy as a human being.

I've met some really amazing people in EVE, people that have given me ships, people that have taught me things about the game, and people that have podded me, and then given me the money I would need to get my ship back 10x.

Ask yourself though, when the majority of people that come into this game as newbies get treated like crap, (I have been treated like crap plenty more times than this in EVE) and for no reason, and leave, can you blame them? And can you see any future in a game like that? Any real value?

I know myself, that I rarely see any new characters anymore. Everyone I see is almost 10 years old. And this is why. If a 9 year old character has nothing better to do, that troll new characters, and under the sad guise of 'don't trust anyone in EVE' then I'm really not sure that I can see a long term investment in this game is something I want to consider.

*Snip* Please refrain from posting private in game correspondence. ISD Ezwal.

Whatever, I'll buy another ship, but how much longer can a game like this really last? I've talked with ppl on TS about this, and they are just as worried about the serious lack of new blood in EVE.



You dueled someone at 0 in a ship that uses range and you lost... Go figure.

You talk about everyone you see is almost 10 years old? What system are you hanging out in? I have never ever seen this.

A ten year old character isn't going to have any advantage over a one year old pilot in a frigate just FYI... Now the "player" might have an advantage because of experience playing the game but this has nothing to do with skill points.

You say newbies are treated like crap but right before that you said people gave you 10x times your ship value. BTW this is a good scam in Eve if you ever get short of ISK... Just have someone kill your cheap frigate and shed tears in local. Lots of people will give you ISK.

You mentioned about "honor" and "sportsmanship"... You're playing the wrong game... Eve is a cut throat game and that's not going to change. It's what attracts many to it.

You also said the person had nothing to gain from killing your Garmur and didn't get a killmail... How do you figure? When you kill a ship you get a killmail... I don't know of any exception to this.
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#617 - 2014-10-29 17:31:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Petre en Thielles
Veers Belvar wrote:

1. I'm not a Keynsian. I think World War II had multiple positive economic impacts. The biggest of which was removing millions of unemployable young men from the labor marker by drafting them into military service, where many were then killed, radically reducing the unemployment rate. I don't think that the economy was aided by Paul Krugman style military stimulus spending. If anything, that whole line of thought has been shown to be a fabrication by the current inability of the world to spend itself out of crisis. I happen to believe that the depression was starting to wane anyway by the late 30s, and that a generalized recovery was in the offing regardless. Another helpful point was that the country was not saddled with massive deficits and health and pension obligations like it is today.


What on earth makes you think the depressing was waning by the late 30s?

And the spending jolt that started to improve GDP happened around 1939 in America, when we started production to PREPARE for going to war, making your "removing millions of unemployable young men" argument somewhat worthless.

Preparing to go to war, similar to preparing to lose ships in high-sec.

Quote:

2. Brand differentiation. People tend to have (irrational) loyalty to a particular brand (people still buy american cars!), and automakers are able to capture thousands of dollars of economic rent per vehicle by slapping their brand name on it. The Bentley drivers would freak out if their brand name changed, even if the underlying vehicle remained the EXACT SAME. For example, despite being the exact same cars, Chevy Prisms always sold at a significant discount to Toyota Corollas.


Now take it one step further. What would happen to CCP's CURRENT customer base (ie, the people they have profited off of for over a decade) if they decided to dilute their brand in the way you describe?

You also need to take this another step further. Ignoring "irrational loyalty" as you so incorrectly put it, certain brands signify a level of quality and a level of service. Why would you ask CCP to destroy that level and type of service by changing the fundamental basic principle that EVE was founded on?

Have you honestly given this any thought? Are you a college kid who just picked up his first marketing/economics textbooks and wanted to start copying and pasting them in here?

Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
@ Petre en Thielles The Volkswagen Audi group also own the Bugatti, Lamborghini, Seat and Skoda brands if you want to expand the question a bit.


Veers argument is the same as "Lets call Volkswagens, Audis, Bugattis, Bentlys, etc.. the same thing and assume no customers will leave or be unhappy!"

And my reply is the same it has always been "so young, so naive"
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#618 - 2014-10-29 17:42:37 UTC
And if you want to talk about foods and restaurants, the whole "brand name" thing gets even more murky.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#619 - 2014-10-29 17:49:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And if you want to talk about foods and restaurants, the whole "brand name" thing gets even more murky.
TBH some of the so called "restaurant" owning groups should just change their names to "Laxative", "The Squits", "Burning Ring" or "Enema" in the interests of honesty in advertising P

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#620 - 2014-10-29 17:54:37 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And if you want to talk about foods and restaurants, the whole "brand name" thing gets even more murky.
TBH some of the so called "restaurant" owning groups should just change their names to "Laxative", "The Squits", "Burning Ring" or "Enema" under the auspices of honesty in advertising P


Oh, I was more referring to the fact that, since the 80s up into the late 2000s, Kraft Foods was owned by Philip Morris. You know, Marlboro.

I honestly can't imagine various housewives in line at a grocery store to buy "Marlboro Mac and Cheese" for their kids.

But you are correct in that many fast food restaurants (in America anyway) are owned by the same people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yum!_Brands

Taco Bell, KFC, Pizza Hutt, Wingstreet. Until a few years ago Long John Silvers and A&W as well.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.