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In simplest terms, what is wrong with EVE

First post
Author
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#461 - 2014-10-28 16:06:55 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

Feel free to launch the New Eden Pew Institute for Polling to gauge the opinions of highsec miners on ganking and bumping. Roll


You made the claim you provide the evidence.
Another case of somebody else should do something, pretty much the norm for Veers. Which is kind of sad.


He is literally a DS2 NPC.

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Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#462 - 2014-10-28 16:09:34 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

The overwhelming majority of the random miners/haulers I have spoken with have expressed these sentiments.


The overwhelming majority of random highsec pubbies I have spoken to have expressed sentiments that you are wrong and forever will be wrong and never will ever be right in any situation ever.

Do you now see why anecdotes are not evidence and that you must provide evidence to back up your claims for anyone to consider them seriously?


The difference is that mine actually happened and reinforces the logical and most likely conclusion. Yours is a) insulting ("pubbies") and b) made up.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#463 - 2014-10-28 16:11:49 UTC
w the
Veers Belvar wrote:

Well Jenn, I delight in your despising me. Heck, if someone like you had ANY positive feeling for me, I would be unconcerned. That the people who play Eve solely to inflict misery on others despise me is something that I take great pride in, and would hope that it continues unabated indefinitely.


I only cause misery for selfish and insane people on forums. I spend my in game time killing even npc pirates.

But what you posted is important, because it shows how you see yourself as some kind of white knight. And yet you do nothing concrete for the people you claim to want to see protected. Folks like me teach people how to avoid the bad guys, how to WIN at EVE by being the kind of aware and responsible PVE player that jumps into the mosh pit with the ganekrs and scream "GAME ON" rather than doing what you do (run to the forums and beg CCP, run to the miner bumping site and talk crap their etc etc).

Again no different from real life, where the 'social justice warriors' spend all their time talking about and protesting 'injustice' while people like me actually risk things and DO something about such injustices.

Quote:

And I completely disagree with your characterization of Eve. Once again you simply ignore any inconvenient facts to reach conclusions that just coincidentally match your pre-conceived notions.

For example - you ignore the existence of rookie systems and the strict griefing restrictions therein, you ignore the broad availability of PvE in highsec, you ignore the infallible CONCORD presence. Literally you ignore the existence of every game mechanic meant to bring a measure of security and safety to highsec, or meant to protect new players.


I don't ignore those things, i recognize their limits. Rookies system protection ends outside the rookie system Those other game mechanics DETER, not prevent unwanted pvp. it's up to the individual player to prevent bad things from happening, because EVE features universal non-consensual pvp.
Quote:

CCP has already taken multiple steps to protect new players and create a measure of safety in highsec, all measures that I fully support. So perhaps it is you who is playing the wrong game and should look for something else?


You didn't answer the question. i know you won't because even you must understand what answering truthfully will mean for you basic beliefs .

But I'll ask it again anyways. If you hate so much of what EVE is and allows (and has always allowed), if you hate the gankers and the scammers who you think are chasing away good 'decent' folks, WHY are you here instead of being in one of the multitude of MMOs that doesn't allow the same things EVE does in the 1st place.

Rhetorical question I know, because everyone already knows the answer. I'd just like to see if you can be honest enough (with yourself) for a few seconds to admit it publicly.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#464 - 2014-10-28 16:13:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Veers Belvar wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

The overwhelming majority of the random miners/haulers I have spoken with have expressed these sentiments.


The overwhelming majority of random highsec pubbies I have spoken to have expressed sentiments that you are wrong and forever will be wrong and never will ever be right in any situation ever.

Do you now see why anecdotes are not evidence and that you must provide evidence to back up your claims for anyone to consider them seriously?


The difference is that mine actually happened and reinforces the logical and most likely conclusion. Yours is a) insulting ("pubbies") and b) made up.
La Nariz openly admits that his is just anecdote and therefore subject to doubt.

Without any evidence being presented your claim is as valid as that of La Nariz, maybe you should try holding yourself to the same standards you demand of others.

Or is that inconvenient because your claim is a fabrication and you're talking out of your arse as per normal?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#465 - 2014-10-28 16:17:03 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:


If you hate so much of what EVE is and allows (and has always allowed), if you hate the gankers and the scammers who you think are chasing away good 'decent' folks, WHY are you here instead of being in one of the multitude of MMOs that doesn't allow the same things EVE does in the 1st place.

Rhetorical question I know, because everyone already knows the answer. I'd just like to see if you can be honest enough (with yourself) for a few seconds to admit it publicly.


Because I like a lot of the PvE content, I like the market system, the fitting system, and I like a lot of the highsec PvE players, and even some of the nullsec PvP folks who don't take pleasure in inflicting misery on helpless PvE players in highsec. Eve has a lot of positives to offer, and the depth and richness here is truly not found anywhere else.

I also think that the people that I detest compromise a small fraction of those playing the game, and the good people far outnumber the bad people.

No other game offers me as good a package as this one, and I'm happy to be an advocate for positive change here, rather than give in to the bad people and run away to somewhere else.

Capice?
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#466 - 2014-10-28 16:18:21 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:

The overwhelming majority of the random miners/haulers I have spoken with have expressed these sentiments.


The overwhelming majority of random highsec pubbies I have spoken to have expressed sentiments that you are wrong and forever will be wrong and never will ever be right in any situation ever.

Do you now see why anecdotes are not evidence and that you must provide evidence to back up your claims for anyone to consider them seriously?


The difference is that mine actually happened and reinforces the logical and most likely conclusion. Yours is a) insulting ("pubbies") and b) made up.
La Nariz openly admits that his is just anecdote and therefore subject to doubt.

Without any evidence being presented your claim is as valid as that of La Nariz, maybe you should try holding yourself to the same standards you demand of others.

Or is that inconvenient because your claim is a fabrication and you're talking out of your arse as per normal?


Confirming that my claim is fabricated, as I have in fact never gone to highsec belts and asked miners/haulers what they think of the ganking and bumping mechanics. Also confirming that my overwhelmingly logical and indisputably true conclusion is fabricated.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#467 - 2014-10-28 16:20:11 UTC
Lupe Meza wrote:

It is a bizarre universe where missioners, miners and industrialists are at greater risk in high security space than "Highsec PvP'ers". I personally wouldn't mind CCP putting more weight into a persistent system where your actions have more consequence, especially those that result in sec loss, in space that is labeled as High Security. Pirates and criminals should be about as safe in High Sec as a carebear missioner is in low sec in my opinion. I'm talking gate and station lockout in high sec for any action that causes you to go supsect for the duration of the suspect timer to give the victim or third parties a chance to hunt the offender down, doubling the amount of tags required to improve sec status, and lowering the negative status required to be permanently engage-able in High Sec.

Outlaws already not only engage-able without penalty by anyone in highsec, but also have a omniscient NPC police force appear and destroy them if they stay in one place for any length of time severely limiting what activities they can participate in and what ships they can fly.

It would seem to me that outlaws are already much less safe in highsec than a positive security status player is in lowsec.

Your basic premise is wrong however - highsec missioners, miners and industrialists basically face no risk at all. Ganking is at an all time low according to CCP and the current mechanics are such that if you put any effort in at all, you are effectively safe from attack. There is no need for "more consequences" to discourage suicide ganking - if anything highsec ganking and other mechanics are due for some buffs to put some risk back into highsec.

But I will agree I would like to see some new mechanics to allow and even encourage PvE players to fight back or get revenge against gankers as this conflict is the essence of the game. The problem is of course figuring out a way to do that within the current game mechanics.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#468 - 2014-10-28 16:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Veers Belvar wrote:
Confirming that my claim is fabricated, as I have in fact never gone to highsec belts and asked miners/haulers what they think of the ganking and bumping mechanics. Also confirming that my overwhelmingly logical and indisputably true conclusion is fabricated.
Finally, the truth.

Without evidence your claim is rightfully treated as a fabrication, I could claim to be the long lost cousin of Tsar Nicolas II of pre-revolutionary Russia, without evidence to back it up that claim will be derided, much like all of your claims.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#469 - 2014-10-28 16:24:13 UTC
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Confirming that my claim is fabricated, as I have in fact never gone to highsec belts and asked miners/haulers what they think of the ganking and bumping mechanics. Also confirming that my overwhelmingly logical and indisputably true conclusion is fabricated.
Finally, the truth.

Without evidence your claim is rightfully treated as a fabrication, I could claim to be the long lost cousin of Tsar Nicolas of pre revolution Russia, without evidence to back it up that claim will be derided, much like all of your claims.


Confirming that I also lack evidence that the world is round, that man has landed on the moon, that most people are pleased electricity was invented, and a host of other claims, so they should all be considered fabrications for now.
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#470 - 2014-10-28 16:27:43 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Confirming that I also lack evidence that the world is round, that man has landed on the moon, that most people are pleased electricity was invented, and a host of other claims, so they should all be considered fabrications for now.


So we're back to hyperbole, back up your claims if you want them to be taken seriously. Otherwise you will be mocked and no one is going to believe a word you say kind of like how we treat dinsdale. However he is at least funny.

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Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#471 - 2014-10-28 16:28:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Veers Belvar wrote:
Confirming that I also lack evidence that the world is round, that man has landed on the moon, that most people are pleased electricity was invented, and a host of other claims, so they should all be considered fabrications for now.
The specified things are considered to be common knowledge, and there are vast quantities of readily and publicly available evidence that proves them to be factual and true, unlike any of your claims.

You should have paid attention in school, assuming that you've even left it; where you should have been presented with the evidence that proves them to be true.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#472 - 2014-10-28 16:28:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Petre en Thielles
Veers Belvar wrote:
The overwhelming majority of the random miners/haulers I have spoken with have expressed these sentiments.


Then they are playing the wrong game. EVE has never claimed to be a game for people who want anything easy and risk-free. Quoting CCP Falcon

CCP Falcon wrote:
Okay, so what follows is entirely my personal opinion.

It's not a case of not "catering to the tearfilled entitled", it's a case of us staying true to the core of what EVE was built on.

Some of the people complaining in this thread have valid points about the fact that they don't feel safe. Simple fact of the matter is, that you're not suppose to feel safe in New Eden.

Eve is not a game for the faint hearted. It's a game that will chew you up and spit you out in the blink of an eye if you even think about letting your guard down or becoming complacent.

While every other MMO starts off with an intro that tells you you're going to be the savior of the realm, holds your hand, protects you, nurtures your development and ultimately guides you to your destiny as a hero along with several other million players who've had the exact same experience, EVE assaults you from the second you begin to play after you create a character, spitting you out into a universe that under the surface, is so complex that it's enough to make your head explode.

The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold. It's about action and reaction, and the story that unfolds as you experience these two things.

True, we're working hard to lower the bar of entry so that more players can enjoy EVE and can get into the game. Our NPE (New Player Experience) is challenging, and we're trying to improve it to better prepare rookies for what lies out there, but when you start to play eve, you'll always start out as the little fish in the big pond.

The only way to grow is to voraciously consume what's around you, and its your choice whether that happens to be New Eden's abundant natural resources, or the other people who're also fighting their way to the top.

EVE is a playing experience like no other, where every action or reaction resonates through a single universe and is felt by players from all corners of the word. There are no shards here, no mirror universes, no instances and very few rules. If you stumble across something valuable, then chances are someone else already knows where you are, or is working their way toward you and you better be prepared to fight for what you've discovered.

EVE will test you from the outset, from the very second you undock and glimpse the stars, and will take pleasure from sorting those who can survive from those who'd rather curl up and perish.

EVE will let you fight until you collapse, then let you struggle to your feet, exhausted from the effort. Then when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel it'll kick you flat on your ass in the mud again and ask you why you deserve to be standing. It'll test you against every other individual playing at some point or another, and it'll ask for answers.

Give it an answer and maybe it'll let you up again, long enough to gather your thoughts. After a few more steps you're on the ground again and it's asking more questions.

EVE is designed to be harsh, it's designed to be challenging, and it's designed to be so deep and complex that it should fascinate and terrify you at the same time.

Corporation, Alliances and coalitions of tens of thousands have risen and fallen on these basic principles, and every one of those thousands of people has their own unique story to tell about how it affected them and what they experienced.

That's the beauty of EVE. Action and reaction. Emergence.

Welcome to the most frightening virtual playground you'll ever experience.


Veers - you are trying to turn EVE into a completely different game. People who think the way you do never were the target audience of EVE.

It is not, has never been, and never will be 'just a kinda cool space sim'
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#473 - 2014-10-28 16:30:41 UTC
petre if i could give another like i would. thank u for clarifying things
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#474 - 2014-10-28 17:03:39 UTC
Petre en Thielles wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
The overwhelming majority of the random miners/haulers I have spoken with have expressed these sentiments.


Then they are playing the wrong game. EVE has never claimed to be a game for people who want anything easy and risk-free. Quoting CCP Falcon

CCP Falcon wrote:
Okay, so what follows is entirely my personal opinion.

It's not a case of not "catering to the tearfilled entitled", it's a case of us staying true to the core of what EVE was built on.

Some of the people complaining in this thread have valid points about the fact that they don't feel safe. Simple fact of the matter is, that you're not suppose to feel safe in New Eden.

Eve is not a game for the faint hearted. It's a game that will chew you up and spit you out in the blink of an eye if you even think about letting your guard down or becoming complacent.

While every other MMO starts off with an intro that tells you you're going to be the savior of the realm, holds your hand, protects you, nurtures your development and ultimately guides you to your destiny as a hero along with several other million players who've had the exact same experience, EVE assaults you from the second you begin to play after you create a character, spitting you out into a universe that under the surface, is so complex that it's enough to make your head explode.

The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold. It's about action and reaction, and the story that unfolds as you experience these two things.

True, we're working hard to lower the bar of entry so that more players can enjoy EVE and can get into the game. Our NPE (New Player Experience) is challenging, and we're trying to improve it to better prepare rookies for what lies out there, but when you start to play eve, you'll always start out as the little fish in the big pond.

The only way to grow is to voraciously consume what's around you, and its your choice whether that happens to be New Eden's abundant natural resources, or the other people who're also fighting their way to the top.

EVE is a playing experience like no other, where every action or reaction resonates through a single universe and is felt by players from all corners of the word. There are no shards here, no mirror universes, no instances and very few rules. If you stumble across something valuable, then chances are someone else already knows where you are, or is working their way toward you and you better be prepared to fight for what you've discovered.

EVE will test you from the outset, from the very second you undock and glimpse the stars, and will take pleasure from sorting those who can survive from those who'd rather curl up and perish.

EVE will let you fight until you collapse, then let you struggle to your feet, exhausted from the effort. Then when you can see the light at the end of the tunnel it'll kick you flat on your ass in the mud again and ask you why you deserve to be standing. It'll test you against every other individual playing at some point or another, and it'll ask for answers.

Give it an answer and maybe it'll let you up again, long enough to gather your thoughts. After a few more steps you're on the ground again and it's asking more questions.

EVE is designed to be harsh, it's designed to be challenging, and it's designed to be so deep and complex that it should fascinate and terrify you at the same time.

Corporation, Alliances and coalitions of tens of thousands have risen and fallen on these basic principles, and every one of those thousands of people has their own unique story to tell about how it affected them and what they experienced.

That's the beauty of EVE. Action and reaction. Emergence.

Welcome to the most frightening virtual playground you'll ever experience.


Veers - you are trying to turn EVE into a completely different game. People who think the way you do never were the target audience of EVE.

It is not, has never been, and never will be 'just a kinda cool space sim'


I see nothing in the above inconsistent with harsher penalties on career criminals, or to support the idea of folks who pop pods every 15 minutes or gank freighters every 15 minutes.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#475 - 2014-10-28 17:04:33 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Confirming that I also lack evidence that the world is round, that man has landed on the moon, that most people are pleased electricity was invented, and a host of other claims, so they should all be considered fabrications for now.


So we're back to hyperbole, back up your claims if you want them to be taken seriously. Otherwise you will be mocked and no one is going to believe a word you say kind of like how we treat dinsdale. However he is at least funny.


When the Goon propaganda machine stops mocking me and starts "taking me seriously" it's probably time to quit Eve and move on....because at that point I will have stopped saying the truth.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#476 - 2014-10-28 17:12:28 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
When the Goon propaganda machine stops mocking me and starts "taking me seriously" it's probably time to quit Eve and move on....because at that point I will have stopped saying the truth.
To stop telling the truth you must first start telling the truth Shocked

TL;DR You wouldn't know the truth if it slapped you in the face with a wrecking ball.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

New Player FAQ

Feyd's Survival Pack

Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#477 - 2014-10-28 17:14:32 UTC
La Nariz wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Confirming that I also lack evidence that the world is round, that man has landed on the moon, that most people are pleased electricity was invented, and a host of other claims, so they should all be considered fabrications for now.


So we're back to hyperbole, back up your claims if you want them to be taken seriously. Otherwise you will be mocked and no one is going to believe a word you say kind of like how we treat dinsdale. However he is at least funny.


It's pretty laughable that you think the idea that highsec miners are unhappy with the ganking/bumping mechanics is a proposition that needs to be proven. Do you ever try actually talking to folks in highsec (the "pubbies" as you derisively call them)?
Petre en Thielles
Doomheim
#478 - 2014-10-28 17:17:46 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
I see nothing in the above inconsistent with harsher penalties on career criminals, or to support the idea of folks who pop pods every 15 minutes or gank freighters every 15 minutes.


Did you even read it?

What part of

Quote:
The entire design is based around being harsh, vicious, relentless, hostile and cold.


is hard for you to comprehend?
Bastion Arzi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#479 - 2014-10-28 17:18:36 UTC
people only see what they want to see
La Nariz
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#480 - 2014-10-28 17:21:54 UTC  |  Edited by: La Nariz
Veers Belvar wrote:
La Nariz wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:
Confirming that I also lack evidence that the world is round, that man has landed on the moon, that most people are pleased electricity was invented, and a host of other claims, so they should all be considered fabrications for now.


So we're back to hyperbole, back up your claims if you want them to be taken seriously. Otherwise you will be mocked and no one is going to believe a word you say kind of like how we treat dinsdale. However he is at least funny.


It's pretty laughable that you think the idea that highsec miners are unhappy with the ganking/bumping mechanics is a proposition that needs to be proven. Do you ever try actually talking to folks in highsec (the "pubbies" as you derisively call them)?


Of course as a recruiter it's my job to talk to pubbies so other goons don't have to, the sacrifices I make. Most of the highsec pubbies are blithely unaware of what is going on.

None of this removes your obligation of supporting your own claims; of which you have two:

-there is a silent majority in highesc that is unhappy with the status quo,

-you hold the same views they hold.

This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. Improve the forums, support this idea: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=345133