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Possible Balance of Armor and shields

Author
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#21 - 2011-11-27 01:17:32 UTC
Why do you hate armor?
Evenus Battuta
#22 - 2011-11-27 01:50:09 UTC
The better way to 'balance' something is first make them actually different. I had this idea of introducing 2 differnet resistance systems:1 is the current system of dispensing X% damage from every hit, and 2 is a new type of resistance works like in most other games: you just immune Y points from every hit.

So the actuall damage you take will be: [Orignial damage]*[1-X%]-Y

Make shiled good at resistance type 1, so they will perform better when facing bigger ships or ships generally with high DPH weapon.
and make armor good at resistance type 2, so they will be better when dealing smaller ships or ships generally with low DPH but high DPS.

Anyone against making EVE more complex and difficult?
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#23 - 2011-11-27 01:50:38 UTC
So your brilliant and top secret idea is to triple damage on ships you personally don't like.

Interesting.

Not.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Muestereate
Minions LLC
#24 - 2011-11-27 02:25:37 UTC
Evenus, idea 2 sounds like it could be achieved by a bit of re balancing of native resist bonuses. I think Idea 1 is what they have done with hybrid reworking. You have an enviable perception of a complex matriced system :) But perhaps your idea really does require something new as you say.

Say we had an armor ship that had an immunity to damage., would it be an omni damage immunity? Shield ships command all 4 damage types pretty well. The armor ships in general only dispense 2 damage types. This further penalizes them.
Desert Ice78
Gryphons of the Western Wind
#25 - 2011-11-27 02:47:59 UTC
Muestereate wrote:
......with something like the greatest idea of our time?


You should sit down for a conversation with the Titanni; he too shares your.......over developed sence of selfworth.

I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg

CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.

Evenus Battuta
#26 - 2011-11-27 02:55:06 UTC
Of course its not omni immunity but respective immunity for different damage types.

So you can make shield generally with high resistance so they are good at dealing with high dph, and armor with high immunity so they are good at countering weapons with high fire rate and low dph.

Or you can even make this more delicate: make shield with high resistance but low immunity with EM and Thermal damage, low resistance but high immunity with Explosive and Kinetic damage; and armor attribute generally the opposite. This will be kind of beautiful but maybe just too complicated for a video game.
Stan Smith
State War Academy
Caldari State
#27 - 2011-11-27 07:11:20 UTC
Needs morecow bell

☻/ /▌ / \ This is Bob, post him into your forum sig and help him conquer the forums.

LacLongQuan
Doomheim
#28 - 2011-11-27 07:22:23 UTC  |  Edited by: LacLongQuan
give armor ships mid-slot damage modifier mod or stfu.

give armor ships mid-slot nano or stfu.

give armor recharge or stfu

dont like shield? fly armor. both have pros and cons. l2adapt
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2011-11-27 07:41:35 UTC
Amro One wrote:
I hope he gets hit by a car.

and then that car be hit by a train
that then goes off the rails on a bridge
and falls onto an oil tanker
that catches fire and sinks into a crevasse
that is between 2 continental plates crushing together
while an aseroid the size of Jupiter heads for the EXACT longitude and latitude of the original car
and then the universe kapoofs


now maybe the bad idea will go away, as not one miniscule of its existence could be left.
Larianne
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2011-11-27 07:43:56 UTC
Muestereate wrote:
I believe I have come up with a way to overcome the weaknesses of armor versus shield as it relates to applied dps. The solution I have come up with would actually apply more dps to shield boats than armor boats. It could create some new tactics but this would also really upset the game as it now stands. Originally, like everyone else, I was looking at hybrids with this idea of mine that blaster should shoot like shotguns and a battleship should be able to knock out tackling frigates in one or two shots like a smartbomb but turret based. This same solution makes it harder to get under rails. I need to run hundreds of combinations through my very simple spreadsheet.

My first tries are overpowered but amusing. I essentially triple applied dps on a shield BC versus an Armor BC at the same ranges and transversals. Since I still have about 50 million in Hurricane blueprints, should I keep this secret till after the expansion?


Ive seen a 500k+ effective hp Damnation (one of the amarr commands i think it was the D) buffer fit. You show me a shield tanker that gets close on a non capital ship and then we can talk. They dont have to be exactly the same. One has different benefits then the other.

On top of that how are you gunna fix the difference in sig radius? how about the speed difference cuz of plates? o and how about that shields naturally have less effecitve hitpoints already?
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2011-11-27 07:54:52 UTC
simple allow some shield and armor items to be used in both slots
armor repper in medium slow
shield rep or buffer in lows.


or heres another idea, make each item work on each slot, but its weaker in the med slot, and much weaker in the low.
what does this mean?

weapon in low slot will do **** poor damage, or have uber high cycle time, but this means you can have an uber tank, or more effective EW.

heat sinks in med slots? glass cannon FTW
nano's in every slot of a ship with a MWD in one of the highs.... dat speed. ShockedShockedShocked
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#32 - 2011-11-27 08:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Nariya Kentaya
Herping yourDerp wrote:
simple allow some shield and armor items to be used in both slots
armor repper in medium slow
shield rep or buffer in lows.


or heres another idea, make each item work on each slot, but its weaker in the med slot, and much weaker in the low.
what does this mean?

weapon in low slot will do **** poor damage, or have uber high cycle time, but this means you can have an uber tank, or more effective EW.

heat sinks in med slots? glass cannon FTW
nano's in every slot of a ship with a MWD in one of the highs.... dat speed. ShockedShockedShocked

i would prefer just throwing a gun in EVERY SLOT OF A SHIP and ahving some logis keep me alive....
dat dps


yes i realize there are "hardpoints", but wouldnt it be nice if we could exempt weapons from using ahrdpoints by putting them somewhere else?
i would ahev to say though, sicne high/med/low ahs to do with POWER, how about all weapons just cycle slightly slower and have less tracking speed (since turret's turning requries power) (more idf theya re in a low power slot, only a slight reduction if theya re in medium slot) i say affect both, that way you can say it makes sense logic wise while they do about the same effectiveness than if you just chose 1, sicne youw ouldnt reduce either by a LARGE amount...

pardon my grammar and atrocious spelling, i was falling asleep as i wrote this, and i couldn't be arsed to go abck through and correct it.
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2011-11-27 08:32:24 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Herping yourDerp wrote:
simple allow some shield and armor items to be used in both slots
armor repper in medium slow
shield rep or buffer in lows.


or heres another idea, make each item work on each slot, but its weaker in the med slot, and much weaker in the low.
what does this mean?

weapon in low slot will do **** poor damage, or have uber high cycle time, but this means you can have an uber tank, or more effective EW.

heat sinks in med slots? glass cannon FTW
nano's in every slot of a ship with a MWD in one of the highs.... dat speed. ShockedShockedShocked

i would prefer just throwing a gun in EVERY SLOT OF A SHIP and ahving some logis keep me alive....
dat dps


yes i realize there are "hardpoints", but wouldnt it be nice if we could exempt weapons from using ahrdpoints by putting them somewhere else?
i would ahev to say though, sicne high/med/low ahs to do with POWER, how about all weapons just cycle slightly slower and have less tracking speed (since turret's turning requries power) (more idf theya re in a low power slot, only a slight reduction if theya re in medium slot) i say affect both, that way you can say it makes sense logic wise while they do about the same effectiveness than if you just chose 1, sicne youw ouldnt reduce either by a LARGE amount...

pardon my grammar and atrocious spelling, i was falling asleep as i wrote this, and i couldn't be arsed to go abck through and correct it.


even if you had unlimited hard points you would have to settle for lower tier guns of the ship, so like battleship with medium guns, but much more. no to mention less of everything else.
but i see your point, its a rough idea and of course would need much refining. i mean, it be broken i miners could fit more strips. i think it would open up a lot of new gameplay though the simple move would mean litterally billions of new viable ship setups would be created.
Nikola Aivoras
Mercantilist Corporation of New Eden
#34 - 2011-11-27 08:38:55 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
simple allow some shield and armor items to be used in both slots
armor repper in medium slow
shield rep or buffer in lows.


or heres another idea, make each item work on each slot, but its weaker in the med slot, and much weaker in the low.
what does this mean?

weapon in low slot will do **** poor damage, or have uber high cycle time, but this means you can have an uber tank, or more effective EW.

heat sinks in med slots? glass cannon FTW
nano's in every slot of a ship with a MWD in one of the highs.... dat speed. ShockedShockedShocked


Can I put socks on my hands and still have them warm my feet, but just not as well?
Muestereate
Minions LLC
#35 - 2011-11-27 16:00:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Muestereate
I can't say its fun to get past the death wishes, I didn't really expect them but they were fun. I really like the idea of module cross-dressing to herp different derps.

But my idea is offensive rather than defensive. We all like gank more than tank. There's a formula many of us have glanced at. It determines the probability to hit. Who would ever care? We have eft and can spout damage and tank figures but applying that damage is always elusive. We always seem to work inside the eft box rather than the CCP box. The problem becomes undeniable as larger scaled engagements such as incursions show the gap. Armor is consistently slower than shields in applying dps on consistent similar targets.

Webs and tracking links attempt to make up when room for tracking enhancers run out. But the shield group then employs the same tools and the imbalance remains. Target painters point the way to the few that can see the the applied dps bonus they give applies to turrets, the damage mod to missiles, and that applied dps outweighs pure damage mods.

Studying the way target painters work on turrets reveals that signature radius is a key to applying damage as is speed but these are all attributes of the target.

There is another variable, its well enough known, and it applies to the attacking ship rather than the target. This mystery variable works with signature radius so any alteration of this number affects applied dps as it relates to speed and signature radius.

Signature radii of shield ships with extenders are larger and the ships generally faster. Altering this one variable changes the balance between shield and armor ships.
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