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Humble request to revisit warp speeds for BS / BC's

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Maraner
The Executioners
#61 - 2014-10-23 06:24:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Can't say I've seen anyone using a fit that has that sort of performance in low sec anywhere.

Yes I realize this must be my fault some how.

The fact is these ships are becoming rare, it's a combination of nerfs and buffs to other ships over a long time. I am simply asking that the AU speed be buffed to enable mixed fleets without the need to AU enhancing modules, rigs or implants.

If people want to fly around at 6 AU with that sort of fit that requires thats fine.

But at least have it at 3.0 so these ships can at least keep up without the significant loss of either tank or gank that it currently entails.

Thanks


Using one rig slot is not a massive sacrifice. You are not going to get cruiser warp speeds out of a battleship with no sacrifices at all.



Sorry disagree. The hyperspatial rigs just to up the hurt are a cpu drawback. the armor mega is a tight cow for CPU already without that. Plus it should have a damn trimark in there, although what good it is against a blap dred is uncertain.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#62 - 2014-10-23 06:34:25 UTC
Craggio wrote:
3.0 might be a bit much, but 2.5 Au warp would be sufficient. And it would get more mixed fleets out there.


It wont.

As said, battleships have always been rare in small gang roams and will continue to be rare no matter what changes are made.
Maraner
The Executioners
#63 - 2014-10-23 06:35:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Can't say I've seen anyone using a fit that has that sort of performance in low sec anywhere.

Yes I realize this must be my fault some how.

The fact is these ships are becoming rare, it's a combination of nerfs and buffs to other ships over a long time. I am simply asking that the AU speed be buffed to enable mixed fleets without the need to AU enhancing modules, rigs or implants.

If people want to fly around at 6 AU with that sort of fit that requires thats fine.

But at least have it at 3.0 so these ships can at least keep up without the significant loss of either tank or gank that it currently entails.

Thanks


Using one rig slot is not a massive sacrifice. You are not going to get cruiser warp speeds out of a battleship with no sacrifices at all.



Dude they used to go at 3.0

It can be done
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#64 - 2014-10-23 06:37:44 UTC
Maraner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Can't say I've seen anyone using a fit that has that sort of performance in low sec anywhere.

Yes I realize this must be my fault some how.

The fact is these ships are becoming rare, it's a combination of nerfs and buffs to other ships over a long time. I am simply asking that the AU speed be buffed to enable mixed fleets without the need to AU enhancing modules, rigs or implants.

If people want to fly around at 6 AU with that sort of fit that requires thats fine.

But at least have it at 3.0 so these ships can at least keep up without the significant loss of either tank or gank that it currently entails.

Thanks


Using one rig slot is not a massive sacrifice. You are not going to get cruiser warp speeds out of a battleship with no sacrifices at all.



Sorry disagree. The hyperspatial rigs just to up the hurt are a cpu drawback. the armor mega is a tight cow for CPU already without that. Plus it should have a damn trimark in there, although what good it is against a blap dred is uncertain.



You do not need trimarks to make a battleship work and I have no issues with CPU when using three t2 hyperspacials.
Maraner
The Executioners
#65 - 2014-10-23 06:45:01 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Maraner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Maraner wrote:
Can't say I've seen anyone using a fit that has that sort of performance in low sec anywhere.

Yes I realize this must be my fault some how.

The fact is these ships are becoming rare, it's a combination of nerfs and buffs to other ships over a long time. I am simply asking that the AU speed be buffed to enable mixed fleets without the need to AU enhancing modules, rigs or implants.

If people want to fly around at 6 AU with that sort of fit that requires thats fine.

But at least have it at 3.0 so these ships can at least keep up without the significant loss of either tank or gank that it currently entails.

Thanks


Using one rig slot is not a massive sacrifice. You are not going to get cruiser warp speeds out of a battleship with no sacrifices at all.



Sorry disagree. The hyperspatial rigs just to up the hurt are a cpu drawback. the armor mega is a tight cow for CPU already without that. Plus it should have a damn trimark in there, although what good it is against a blap dred is uncertain.



You do not need trimarks to make a battleship work and I have no issues with CPU when using three t2 hyperspacials.



I understand that you disagree, you have made you point reasonably. Please let others comment. I don't really understand why you are against a buff of a ship that you seem to like to fly but as you wish.

For myself I like to fly megas with trimarks, please allow me to fit my ship the way I would like to and stay with my corpies.

Thanks
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#66 - 2014-10-23 07:06:18 UTC
Maraner wrote:
[quote=baltec1]


Dude they used to go at 3.0

It can be done


They also used to be able to track frigates at any range and speed, have no diminishing returns on damage mods and could fit a dreadnoughts weapon. Battleships are not going to be matching cruiser warp speeds. Use the fitting options.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2014-10-23 07:24:04 UTC
Maraner wrote:



I understand that you disagree, you have made you point reasonably. Please 't really understand why you are against a buff of a ship that you seem to like to fly but as you wish.

For myself I like to fly megas with trimarks, please allow me to fit my ship the way I would like to and stay with my corpies.

Thanks


Im against it because it would imbalance the ship lineup. It doesnt matter if I would gain from it or not, balance comes before personal gain.
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#68 - 2014-10-23 07:33:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

They also used to be able to track frigates at any range and speed, have no diminishing returns on damage mods and could fit a dreadnoughts weapon. Battleships are not going to be matching cruiser warp speeds. Use the fitting options.


I agree with you about not increasing the warp speed, forcing compromises in fitting is how EVE should work. Now we have the option to make BSes warp fast enough for most purposes, which would be awesome, if it was actually worth the effort.

You still end up in a situation where a cruiser is the superior choice. I hope you understand the difference between "being able to use a BS" and "BS is the optimal choice". So far you haven't presented any arguments why anyone should choose a Mega over say, an Ishtar for a small-medium mixed gang. You don't do more applied damage. You don't have more real tank. You lock stuff slower. You align slower. You move slower. You get jammed easier.

Unlike you claim, people have adapted, adapted by not flying BCs and BSes at all. And unlike you claim, these shipclasses were indeed used in everything from PVE to solo, small gangs and blobs. (Combat) BCs used to be the bread and butter of New Eden, now they are all but extinct. And the reason for that are cruisers, from T1 to T3, which offer better choices for every situation.

And it's not "wrong", cruisers are awesome and accessible, but CBCs need to be fixed to make them the best choice for even some situations.
elite god
Black Water Oasis
#69 - 2014-10-23 07:52:19 UTC
umm fix bcs plan and simple they need to go faster and break 1500 m/s with a micro warp
nutlesscats
Black Water Oasis
#70 - 2014-10-23 07:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: nutlesscats
i agree, even if not the warp speed the speed in wich it can jump to warp needs the buff
Maraner
The Executioners
#71 - 2014-10-23 07:56:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Maraner
This thread was not about tracking to hit frigs.

It is about warp speed. It is not easy to argue that BS are in a good spot at the moment so I salute your dogged defense of a poor place for them.


You very very rarely see HACs or other ships with reasonable tank fit warp speed mods. Thats because they go at a reasonable lick, if a pilot wants to buff it to stupid speed they are well within their rights to do so but it's not nerfed into the ground from the stand point.

I am not asking for some OP **** here, I am asking for balance in an abused ship type that is rare as hell. If you want to fly around at 6.0 AU feel free, but don't expect the rest of us to fly around at 2.0 and be happy or feel that this is somehow balanced.

cheers
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#72 - 2014-10-23 08:01:31 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

They also used to be able to track frigates at any range and speed, have no diminishing returns on damage mods and could fit a dreadnoughts weapon. Battleships are not going to be matching cruiser warp speeds. Use the fitting options.


I agree with you about not increasing the warp speed, forcing compromises in fitting is how EVE should work. Now we have the option to make BSes warp fast enough for most purposes, which would be awesome, if it was actually worth the effort.

You still end up in a situation where a cruiser is the superior choice. I hope you understand the difference between "being able to use a BS" and "BS is the optimal choice". So far you haven't presented any arguments why anyone should choose a Mega over say, an Ishtar for a small-medium mixed gang. You don't do more applied damage. You don't have more real tank. You lock stuff slower. You align slower. You move slower. You get jammed easier.

Unlike you claim, people have adapted, adapted by not flying BCs and BSes at all. And unlike you claim, these shipclasses were indeed used in everything from PVE to solo, small gangs and blobs. (Combat) BCs used to be the bread and butter of New Eden, now they are all but extinct. And the reason for that are cruisers, from T1 to T3, which offer better choices for every situation.

And it's not "wrong", cruisers are awesome and accessible, but CBCs need to be fixed to make them the best choice for even some situations.


The drake and cane were both nerfed for very good reasons. Your comparison between the ishtar and the mega is a very odd one given that both are made for very different tasks. That said if the ishtar is out damaging a blaster mega you are doing something very wrong.
Madam Haig
Doomheim
#73 - 2014-10-23 08:02:05 UTC
The 3.0 AU all round warp speed was a total shamble to the game, with that I agree totally with the people who are saying there should be differences.

Although I encourage you, post Phoebe to go out in your nano fleets in bridge range of a fleet that does not have to use the gimped fits that you are having to use to make them viable... Although I do hope to see your roaming carrier fleets around, should be an interesting amount of hot drops to be had.

I'd be happy with even an increase to the acceleration up to top warp speed.



Maraner
The Executioners
#74 - 2014-10-23 08:05:07 UTC
Madam Haig wrote:
The 3.0 AU all round warp speed was a total shamble to the game, with that I agree totally with the people who are saying there should be differences.

Although I encourage you, post Phoebe to go out in your nano fleets in bridge range of a fleet that does not have to use the gimped fits that you are having to use to make them viable... Although I do hope to see your roaming carrier fleets around, should be an interesting amount of hot drops to be had.

I'd be happy with even an increase to the acceleration up to top warp speed.






Thanks for commenting, I agree very much that the warp speed changes were mostly great. But too much of a nerf was handed out in the guise of variance. The outcome is BS and BC are just not getting used.
Craggio
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#75 - 2014-10-23 08:05:41 UTC
I'd like to see the BS's up to 2.5 with the BC's. Could see more mixed fleets roaming, Not talking 100 man gangs, I'm talking 10-20 man mixed fleets roaming around looking for fights. You just don't see this any more. Granted, maybe Phoebe will fix some of it, but should be closer.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#76 - 2014-10-23 08:13:18 UTC
Maraner wrote:
This thread was not about tracking to hit frigs.

It is about warp speed. It is not easy to argue that BS are in a good spot at the moment so I salute your dogged defense of a poor place for them.


You very very rarely see HACs or other ships with reasonable tank fit warp speed mods. Thats because they go at a reasonable lick, if a pilot wants to buff it to stupid speed they are well within their rights to do so but it's not nerfed into the ground from the stand point.

I am not asking for some OP **** here, I am asking for balance in an abused ship type that is rare as hell. If you want to fly around at 6.0 AU feel free, but don't expect the rest of us to fly around at 2.0 and be happy or feel that this is somehow balanced.

cheers


Actually there would be one BS that would be hitting 12au.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#77 - 2014-10-23 08:30:25 UTC
Craggio wrote:
I'd like to see the BS's up to 2.5 with the BC's. Could see more mixed fleets roaming, Not talking 100 man gangs, I'm talking 10-20 man mixed fleets roaming around looking for fights. You just don't see this any more. Granted, maybe Phoebe will fix some of it, but should be closer.


Then what happens to BC?

Simple fact here is that we already have a battleship that warps as fast as a cruiser and none of you are using it.
Maraner
The Executioners
#78 - 2014-10-23 08:41:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Maraner
baltec1 wrote:
Craggio wrote:
I'd like to see the BS's up to 2.5 with the BC's. Could see more mixed fleets roaming, Not talking 100 man gangs, I'm talking 10-20 man mixed fleets roaming around looking for fights. You just don't see this any more. Granted, maybe Phoebe will fix some of it, but should be closer.


Then what happens to BC?

Simple fact here is that we already have a battleship that warps as fast as a cruiser and none of you are using it.



Dude your BS move via titan bridge, please let the rest of us that roam have the option without gimping the fit

No one has said that you can't make a BS warp fast.... we get that. It's the compromise on the trimarks and inability to use slaves. Do you understand that? you seem to keep saying the same stuff.

There is no point showing that you can get a BS to warp 12 AU, so what (oh and btw please send some to where we live they should be stupid easy to kill)

When was the last time that you came across a bunch of hac's that had to compromise their fit hyperspatial rigs? never, they just don't need to.

We are talking about the base values of the ships au speed without rigs and modules etc to change that.

2.0 is not enough.
James Baboli
Warp to Pharmacy
#79 - 2014-10-23 08:59:05 UTC
So, lets look at this from the numbers.

3.0 remained effectively the same speed, but faster into and out of warp, reducing time spent overall.
3+ ended up faster, both in accel in warp, decel out of warp and general cruising speed.
3- lost speed.

Battleships and battlecruisers were almost entirely overshadowing cruisers, and other than tackle, frigates were rare. We now have a meta that rewards using cruisers and frigates, while allowing BCs and BS to keep up at significant cost to their combat power when they arrive, until/unless they refit.

Currently t1 BCs (both combat and attack) move at 2.5 Au/s
Command ships move at 2.8 au/s
t1 BS move at 2.0
t2 BS move at 2.2

A large section of the community is angry about these ships being moved to be slower without any other changes.

So I proposed that someone crunch some numbers.
t1 CBCs move at 2.8
t1 ABCs move at 2.5
Command ships move at 3.0
any t2 hulls built off the ABCs move at 2.8
t1 BS move at 2.2
Blops move at 2.5
Marauders at 2.4
Mach keeps 3.0, and nestor keeps it's current speed, consider adding bhargest to the fast pirate hulls.

This, in general, is about a 10% buff to the warp speed of these heavier combatants, while retaining a tiered heirarchy of speed, buffs the BCs in the worst places the most, gives command ships something to do besides sit off grid and generally makes these ships less bad at projection while retaining the slower and more strategic nature of these heavier assets, as well as the ability for a cruiser gang to get away from battlecruisers and battleships in warp.

Talking more,

Flying crazier,

And drinking more

Making battleships worth the warp
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#80 - 2014-10-23 09:02:07 UTC
Maraner wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Craggio wrote:
I'd like to see the BS's up to 2.5 with the BC's. Could see more mixed fleets roaming, Not talking 100 man gangs, I'm talking 10-20 man mixed fleets roaming around looking for fights. You just don't see this any more. Granted, maybe Phoebe will fix some of it, but should be closer.


Then what happens to BC?

Simple fact here is that we already have a battleship that warps as fast as a cruiser and none of you are using it.



Dude you BS move via titan bridge, please let the rest of us that roam have the option without gimping the fit

You clearly don't agree with what I'm saying, thats fine.

There is no point showing that you can get a BS to warp 12 AU, so what. We can do that with all of the ships in the game. We are talking about the base values of the ships au speed without rigs and modules etc to change that.

2.0 is not enough.



I am quite happy to go roaming in my BS, I fully intend to be roaming around in enemy space come the changes to jumping mechanics. If you want cruiser warp speeds in a BS out of the box then why are you not using the one currently in game?