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whats the appeal of ganking miners?
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Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#121 - 2014-10-21 15:08:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Krysti wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


I am confused, would you propose increased penalties on the ganking of soft targets in highsec or do you want more severe consequences for all ganking?

But really there are already significant consequences for the ganker. Eve is a PvP game. Why do you expect CCP to provide you with complete protection when there are already many tools available to you to avoid destruction at the hands of your opponents? These include but are not limited to: tanking your ship, having friends to guard you, not being AFK so you can flee, or mining in space that you and your friends have made secure like null.

If you do not want to take responsibility for the safety of your digital space assets, why are you playing a competitive PvP game like this one? And to bring it back to the title of this thread, what is the appeal of pressing F1 to activate your mining lasers in total, absolute safety? If there is anything at all satisfying about mining, I would think it would be that you managed to gather those rocks in the face of at least the theoretical risk of someone trying to stop you.


What consequences are there for a month old alt doing this ganking?

Yes i can mine safely in null - great game design right there.

I'm now taking more risk in hi-sec, and yes i know what to do to protect myself but seriously? why should i have to for much less rewards?

Garbage game design, all the effort from me to mine safely for peanuts but no effort to kill me.

If this is going on, then how about insurance for pods? and equal rewards for hi-sec miners?

where will the madness end!


That highlighted phrase translates to an ancient Latin phrase. I think it's "Clickimus Uninstallium" or something.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#122 - 2014-10-21 15:22:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Krysti wrote:
What consequences are there for a month old alt doing this ganking?
Anybody can shoot at them, they get chased around by NPCs, they lose a ship every time they gank, they get 15 minute GCC timers, there's restrictions on the ships that they can realistically undock while not ganking etc.

Quote:
Yes i can mine safely in null - great game design right there.

I'm now taking more risk in hi-sec, and yes i know what to do to protect myself but seriously? why should i have to for much less rewards?
Because if you don't you die. It's only safer in nullsec because players put in the effort to make it safer, in highsec players put in the effort to make it more dangerous.

You too can follow the example of nullsec residents and try to make the space you live in safer, but it involves effort so you won't

Quote:
Garbage game design, all the effort from me to mine safely for peanuts but no effort to kill me.
You were mining while afk, that involves exactly zero effort, hence you get crap rewards.

Quote:
If this is going on, then how about insurance for pods? and equal rewards for hi-sec miners?

where will the madness end!
You insure your pod by paying attention, and not being afk Roll. The rewards for highsec mining are in line with the amount of effort you put in to it. The madness might end when people stop calling for highsec to be safer than it already is*, and whining about other players using them as content.

*Highsec is currently so safe that people like you think that it's safe to go afk while in space.

Edit ~ Still waiting for an answer to this

Krysti "I do not afk in this game, but that's not really the issue. I would have saved my pod 
yes, but the game is a total joke now."
Krysti "Well I got ganked yesterday and lost 2B in implants etc... I was afk for ten minutes."


So which one of the above statements is true? Or are you just telling porkies all round?

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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Black Pedro
Mine.
#123 - 2014-10-21 15:57:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
Krysti wrote:


What consequences are there for a month old alt doing this ganking?

Yes i can mine safely in null - great game design right there.

I'm now taking more risk in hi-sec, and yes i know what to do to protect myself but seriously? why should i have to for much less rewards?

Garbage game design, all the effort from me to mine safely for peanuts but no effort to kill me.

If this is going on, then how about insurance for pods? and equal rewards for hi-sec miners?

where will the madness end!


There are (slightly) less rewards in highsec because of the significant consequence for highsec gankers which include in part automatic ship loss, kill rights and a negative security status hit which will quickly make the ganker unable to operate normally in highsec, and being unable to dock for 15 minutes. But really, these consequence make ganking difficult enough that only dedicated individuals pursue it, and as a result make highsec much safer than regions of space where CONCORD does not operate and people are free to engage with no penalty.

I think your, and many other people's problem is thinking highsec equals safesec. It is not. You are subject to attack anywhere in Eve. Highsec just imposes enough consequences after a gank to raise the bar and provide some safety to targets, but even if you do everything right, you can still be exploded in highsec. This is by design.

Perhaps the tutorials could make this more clear, but your assets are always at risk when in space. Protecting them is ultimately your responsibility.

And one last thing: the reason you "mine for peanuts" is because of the lack of risk in highsec. There are hordes of AFK miners mining with little risk, thier protection being provided for free by CONCORD. You were unlucky as there are not nearly enough suicide gankers to put a dent in this behavior. This is indeed a failure in game design in my opinion. More risk, or more competition (less asteroids for example) is needed to make mining a worthwhile profession.

The 8 Golden Rules of Eve

Why Do They Gank?
Solecist Project
#124 - 2014-10-21 16:02:04 UTC
Jonah ... tbh ... the ship restrictions aren't worth much.
The facpo is a minor nuissance, nothing more

I bounced around on grid of the SoE station in Osmon in a Rokh.

Just wanted to add this.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Nevil Oscillator
#125 - 2014-10-21 16:04:58 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:


There are (slightly) less rewards in highsec because of the significant consequence for highsec gankers which include in part automatic ship loss, kill rights and a negative security status hit which will quickly make the ganker unable to operate normally in highsec, and being unable to dock for 15 minutes. But really, these consequence make ganking difficult enough that only dedicated individuals pursue it, and as a result make highsec much safer than regions of space where CONCORD does not operate and people are free to engage with no penalty.




Maybe the consequences should be less drastic but longer lasting, I don't envy the job of balancing that, there is an awkward feel to that game mechanism. How many ganks does it take to reach -5 sec level and how easy is it to recover sec level ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#126 - 2014-10-21 16:11:54 UTC
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
How many ganks does it take to reach -5 sec level and how easy is it to recover sec level ?


If you don't take pods, you can gank a fair amount before you hit neg five. If you take pods, much, much less.

As for recovering sec status, that is not particularly easy. The only way to make it semi tolerable is to use the tags, which are hilariously overpriced. 500 mil at least to get from neg five to neg 1.

Otherwise you have to rat your way back up, which can take a while even if you're just popping battleships in a stealth bomber.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#127 - 2014-10-21 16:12:22 UTC
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


There are (slightly) less rewards in highsec because of the significant consequence for highsec gankers which include in part automatic ship loss, kill rights and a negative security status hit which will quickly make the ganker unable to operate normally in highsec, and being unable to dock for 15 minutes. But really, these consequence make ganking difficult enough that only dedicated individuals pursue it, and as a result make highsec much safer than regions of space where CONCORD does not operate and people are free to engage with no penalty.




Maybe the consequences should be less drastic but longer lasting, I don't envy the job of balancing that, there is an awkward feel to that game mechanism. How many ganks does it take to reach -5 sec level and how easy is it to recover sec level ?


Depends on the ganks. I went from 5.0 to -2.2 in exactly 3 pod kills when I tried my hand at it a while ago.
Solecist Project
#128 - 2014-10-21 16:15:18 UTC
That depends, Nevil.
Every aggression with every turret counts seperately ...
... it's also depending of the system sec you are in ...
... and pods are faar worse than ships.

The average 0.1 per shipkill usually works for me though.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Nevil Oscillator
#129 - 2014-10-21 16:17:40 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


If you don't take pods, you can gank a fair amount before you hit neg five. If you take pods, much, much less.

As for recovering sec status, that is not particularly easy. The only way to make it semi tolerable is to use the tags, which are hilariously overpriced. 500 mil at least to get from neg five to neg 1.



Though you only need to keep it above -5 to still have Concord protection
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#130 - 2014-10-21 16:19:19 UTC
Nevil Oscillator wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


If you don't take pods, you can gank a fair amount before you hit neg five. If you take pods, much, much less.

As for recovering sec status, that is not particularly easy. The only way to make it semi tolerable is to use the tags, which are hilariously overpriced. 500 mil at least to get from neg five to neg 1.



Though you only need to keep it above -5 to still have Concord protection


CONCORD? Yes. Facpo?

Depends on the sec level of the system you are in.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#131 - 2014-10-21 18:58:26 UTC
Veers Belvar wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Veers Belvar wrote:


Huh? The rules? I mean you are allowed to sit in station spinning your ship for hours on end....does that make that a smart thing to do? Ditto for running L1 missions all day. That you have a right to do something does not make it the right thing to do.
Well I guess you should tell people that spending hours spinning ships is pointless, if you feel strongly about it.

But I see your point. I should avoid buying certain plots when playing Monopoly, because someone may land on them later and get upset.
I should avoid taking pieces in Chess, because of much the same.
Maybe I should slow the rate of my Hungry Hippo eating, because I may take more balls than you.
Yes, playing a game by it's rules is over rated and even though I could, I shouldn't.

It's a very interesting thought process and I am sure games night with you, would be a rather thrilling experience.

Thanks for the heads up. Big smile



Another brilliant riposte....All of your examples involve doing things to achieve the objective in the game....to win. The conduct here is like moving a knight back and forth aimlessly, while your opponent is checkmating you. Is it legal? Sure. Is it effective? No way. You aren't making isk, you aren't capturing territory, you aren't achieving anything. All you are doing is blowing up helpless miner scrubs....I mean come on, it's pathetic.
Oh my, you are a man of inconsistencies. One minute you say don't play by the rules, the next you say do. Hmmm.

Yet another interesting point. But I do see your error and you did lead yourself into it. (sorry about that)

You see Eve isn't like all those games and it doesn't have the same 'win'. The only 'win' is when one accomplishes ones own set goals.

For example, I truly dislike mining. I think it's the most boring pastime in the game. But I do have a Scottish friend who loves it and if you ever met him, you honesty wouldn't credit it.
Do I think he is pathetic? Well no, why would I? Just because I find mining pointless, irritating and to be quite honest, the pits, it's still a part of the game and many enjoy it. He's playing by the rules and enjoying the game. Odd isn't it?

But you seem to have joined the game, under some strange illusion that it's like all the games you play. You know, on those most delightful games nights you must hold. Well, it isn't.

Just thought I'd return the favour and give you a heads up. Big smile

Thank you muchly. Cool

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nevil Oscillator
#132 - 2014-10-21 19:12:46 UTC
Krysti wrote:


Yes i can mine safely in null - great game design right there.

I'm now taking more risk in hi-sec, and yes i know what to do to protect myself but seriously? why should i have to for much less rewards?

Garbage game design, all the effort from me to mine safely for peanuts but no effort to kill me.




Is this because other players assure your safety in null ?
Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#133 - 2014-10-22 17:51:00 UTC
Desert Ice78 wrote:
Because in life, as in Eve, some people are just dicks. Reasons quickly become meaningless.


I don't do it to be a **** though, like I said, I like the hunt. I throw in a little New Order role playing for the heck of it and if the victim isn't acting like a douchebag I'll even give him advice on how to avoid ganks.

Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#134 - 2014-10-22 18:31:31 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Whenever I read "enjoy mining" I have to wonder what exactly is enjoyable about it.

The only thought I can come up with, is "doing something else while mining",
which means that mining isn't enjoyable at all.

WOOOHOOOO I'M SOOO STARING AT THAT ROCK BABY! LOOK AT MA DRONES!
MA DRONES BABY! THEY MOVE BACK AND FORTH! BACK AND FORTH!!


Can we compare this to

Quote:
Whenever I read "enjoy pvp" I have to wonder what exactly is enjoyable about it.

The only thought I can come up with is "blob and F1",
which means that pvp isn't enjoyable at all.

WOOOHOOO CYNO'S LIT TIME TO DROP 50 SUPERS ON THAT FRIGATE
HOT SWEET DAMN F1 SO HARD


Just curious.

Also given the option of running missions or mining, they're both equally boring.
Or, ooh wait, scan down WH's for barely enough isk to warrant the time!
Brochan McLeod
Frigateer
#135 - 2014-10-22 20:51:26 UTC
I'll probably be ignored because of not contributing to the childish goings on, but... imma say it anyway.

People do as people enjoy!

It is ofcourse as obvious as the nose on ones face that things that i like are not nessecarily the things that you like.

You could keep this 'discussion' going under ever changing topic titles... but its about the same differences always, namely, what i like versus what you like.

I dont like PvP myself but i understand it fuels the parts of the game i do like. The whole game is designed around the fact that you cant really hide from it...

So i have to respect there's stuff going on around me i dont like, in order to be able to do the things i do like...

I had a stroke a year and a half ago and that changed how i can play games like this. Im useless in groups cos im a liability to groupmembers... im just too slow :)

I still manage to fly ships and inch my way forward cos im very careful... tho i still got shot in 0.4 the other day while scanning down sites... cloaking seems less of a failsafe now :)

Got quite the adrenaline shot from that and nearly shat my pants... but it was great fun and i learned yet another lesson :)

All im saying is, roll with the punches and try to think ahead...

Also folks... its not really very civilised to keep on poking people where they are irritated the most, now is it?

With all the crap going on around us we should focus on what allready binds us...playing a great videogame :)

Even the nicest person's patience has a limit!
Kucial Ghavera
Minmatar Republic
#136 - 2014-10-22 21:08:37 UTC
They explode.
Josef Djugashvilis
#137 - 2014-10-22 21:16:28 UTC
Krysti wrote:
Well I got ganked yesterday and lost 2B in implants etc... I was afk for ten minutes.

It's very easy to say carebear cry baby, the game is hard, and it’s the economy...

How about saying let’s make a meaningful game?

The point for me is that these low life morons lose nothing, they use cheap ships with disposable alts, they have no challenge and yet, can cost someone billions and more important to me cost me time to set up again in the game.

All I can do in return is make the killright public.

I can tell you 100 percent it is far safer to play the game generally now in null, something that I ironically found very boring.

So try hi-sec again, FW is great, log into an old alt do some mining and bang.

So you now have a game full of idiots killing soft targets in hi-sec and cosy null bears making money in null.

Somewhere there is a design flaw, yeah and lock that other thread the guy was "ranting" about this.



Honey, you were afk...

You deserved to be ganked.

Hell, I'm not even one of the null-sec tough guys and I have no sympathy for you.

This is not a signature.
Jax Kazen
Doomheim
#138 - 2014-10-22 21:46:23 UTC
It actually used to serve a purpose, kind of. Mining Barges / Exhumers don't explode from "natural" causes at the same rate that say combat ships do so producers of said mining ships would provide a bounty for destroyed mining ships as it would drive market activity and price. Now, however, I think that it's mostly just malice vs any economic benefit.

People have a natural inclination to fear/dislike things that are different than they are. People who do it simply for laughs gravitate towards the sociopath area of that spectrum.
Khun SP
Paramite Factories
#139 - 2014-10-22 22:13:41 UTC
"For the lulz" basically.
Jonah Gravenstein
Machiavellian Space Bastards
#140 - 2014-10-22 22:17:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jonah Gravenstein
Jax Kazen wrote:
It actually used to serve a purpose, kind of. Mining Barges / Exhumers don't explode from "natural" causes at the same rate that say combat ships do so producers of said mining ships would provide a bounty for destroyed mining ships as it would drive market activity and price.
It still serves exactly the same purpose that it always has, ganking still provides localised market opportunities, and, to some extent, discourages the locust fleets of multiboxers from stripping belts.

Quote:
Now, however, I think that it's mostly just malice vs any economic benefit.
Tell that to the people who sell mining ships and modules, they definitely receive an economic benefit. Eve is a world where cut throat business practices are exactly that.

Quote:
People have a natural inclination to fear/dislike things that are different than they are. People who do it simply for laughs gravitate towards the sociopath area of that spectrum.
The people who're displaying sociopathic tendencies are the ones who make real life threats over the loss of their internet spaceship pixels. Threatening to hunt someone down in real life, kill, disfigure, sexually assault or otherwise wishing real life misfortune upon their mothers, spouses, children or pets because your internet spaceship got blown up is not normal behaviour, it's downright abhorrent and is totally unacceptable.

In the beginning there was nothing, which exploded.

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