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[Phoebe] Heavy Interdictors

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Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#341 - 2014-10-29 10:09:00 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
Whatever happened to "T2 ships are more specialised"? The main issue with Hictors currently is that they're not all that effective in their primary combat role of pinning down hostiles, but instead these changes seem focused on turning them into pseudo-HACs with triple bonuses to the guns they're barely capable of fitting in the first place.

I'm pretty sure its too late to stop these going in now but it would have been much more welcome to see amendments that improved the ability of these ships to interdict and have that as the reason to bring one to a roaming gang, rather than this unimpressive Jack-Of-All-Trades approach which gives us a bad damage platform and bad tackling platform in one neat package of mediocrity.


I think you put this very nicely.
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#342 - 2014-10-29 10:14:54 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lurifax wrote:
The point is not to be able to survive 100 ppl blapping at you. In that case anything but capital tends to get alphad off the field.




That's kind of my point. 100 folks alpha you. 10 guys have zero chance of breaking you (with remote rep support).

Where is the breakover point? Once you turn on the ability to get remote assistance you then have to set the reasonable breakover where you can get broken. Turning this on is giving you immunity to a certain size gang.


10 ppl might not be able to break you, but does 10 ppl can rather easily disengage the Hic. Remember that the HIC get 0 benefit from propulsion mods when the warp.
GordonO
BURN EDEN
#343 - 2014-10-30 19:14:14 UTC
The change should also allow for the focus script to stop cap ships from jumping through wh's Twisted

... What next ??
Sigras
Conglomo
#344 - 2014-10-30 20:53:49 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm noticing a fair bit of consternation at the fact that the Devoter is getting a small dronebay but the Phobos is not. The optimal bonus on the Phobos has also been raising some eyebrows.
The key thing that these players are missing is the distinctive flavour we are working towards giving the entire Roden Shipyards line. The old design for Roden Shipyards was focused on a fairly watered down use of missiles and hybrids. This left them in an underwhelming place compared to the other two Gallente T2 corps.

In the new world order for Gallente T2 ships, each manufacturer has a clear set of strengths and a unifying theme:

Roden Shipyards ships can be used as effective blasterboats, but tend to lean towards railguns with big bonuses to hybrid optimal range and tracking. They are a bit slower than Duvolle ships, and have the weakest drone capability of all the Gallente ships, but they tend to have more low slots and more armor HP, as well as better sensors.

I have no problem with the lore here, but as far as balancing is concerned, the devoter does everything the phobos does, but the devoter is just better at it.

from a game balance standpoint, the phobos is underwhelming compared to the devoter....

it does the same damage (pulse lasers + drones vs rails)
has a better tank (better resist profile, more slot options)
is a little faster
is a little smaller (sig radius)

what advantage does the phobos have?
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#345 - 2014-10-30 23:02:27 UTC
Can we stop carriers playing docking games with this?

That's all.
Lurifax
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#346 - 2014-10-31 08:00:11 UTC
Patch notes are out. I hope they will take a look at the HIC for the December expansion.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#347 - 2014-10-31 09:25:52 UTC
GordonO wrote:
The change should also allow for the focus script to stop cap ships from jumping through wh's Twisted


/me sarcasm. Sure why not its not like caps jumping through WH's are not penalized in so many ways already (jump mass, mass spawn, polarization. etc)

Seriously NO

So Much Space
Tramar
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#348 - 2014-10-31 09:29:50 UTC
Sigras wrote:


from a game balance standpoint, the phobos is underwhelming compared to the devoter....

it does the same damage (pulse lasers + drones vs rails)
has a better tank (better resist profile, more slot options)
is a little faster
is a little smaller (sig radius)

what advantage does the phobos have?


None. As phobos pilot I really dislike this. They are just making devoter the best armor HIC
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#349 - 2014-10-31 09:30:22 UTC
Sigras wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm noticing a fair bit of consternation at the fact that the Devoter is getting a small dronebay but the Phobos is not. The optimal bonus on the Phobos has also been raising some eyebrows.
The key thing that these players are missing is the distinctive flavour we are working towards giving the entire Roden Shipyards line. The old design for Roden Shipyards was focused on a fairly watered down use of missiles and hybrids. This left them in an underwhelming place compared to the other two Gallente T2 corps.

In the new world order for Gallente T2 ships, each manufacturer has a clear set of strengths and a unifying theme:

Roden Shipyards ships can be used as effective blasterboats, but tend to lean towards railguns with big bonuses to hybrid optimal range and tracking. They are a bit slower than Duvolle ships, and have the weakest drone capability of all the Gallente ships, but they tend to have more low slots and more armor HP, as well as better sensors.

I have no problem with the lore here, but as far as balancing is concerned, the devoter does everything the phobos does, but the devoter is just better at it.

from a game balance standpoint, the phobos is underwhelming compared to the devoter....

it does the same damage (pulse lasers + drones vs rails)
has a better tank (better resist profile, more slot options)
is a little faster
is a little smaller (sig radius)

what advantage does the phobos have?


An extra mid?

I do think you will find the devotor will be king as usual due to its stats for doing the primary role. the phobos will likely be better for dps as rails atm are better than beams (pretty much the same ability's with less fitting and cap use)

So Much Space
Tappits
Sniggerdly
Pandemic Legion
#350 - 2014-10-31 11:30:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Tappits
Lurifax wrote:
Serendipity Lost wrote:
Lurifax wrote:
The point is not to be able to survive 100 ppl blapping at you. In that case anything but capital tends to get alphad off the field.




That's kind of my point. 100 folks alpha you. 10 guys have zero chance of breaking you (with remote rep support).

Where is the breakover point? Once you turn on the ability to get remote assistance you then have to set the reasonable breakover where you can get broken. Turning this on is giving you immunity to a certain size gang.


10 ppl might not be able to break you, but does 10 ppl can rather easily disengage the Hic. Remember that the HIC get 0 benefit from propulsion mods when the warp.



You can still MWD when you are using the point... its only when you have a bubble up you slow right down


A HIC cannot be remote repd when its pointing something/bubble up. so if he is been repped every one can run away.
If there's 4 Hics and you have a 10 man fleet your prob fighting a far superior force and should of not engaged in the 1st place.

I like the 20% role bonus Rather than the 4% per level.
After playing about on the test server with guns and stuff its a bit useless for the most part.
Spencer Owl
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#351 - 2014-10-31 18:21:09 UTC
I can fly a Devoter or an Onyx. The only one I have true experience in is the Devoter. I've been pondering this change for some time and I was hoping for some different changes but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. So here is my 2 cents.

1. I agree with the capital gate mechanics.
2. I have an issue with the dual purpose dps/tackle role intended for these ships. Here is why.
a. Any self respecting heavy dictor pilot is going to tank the hell out of their ship. This limits the power grid available for turrets/missile launchers. Over tanking is for good reason. A cruiser that's attempting to keep a capitol on grid will need to handle the dps. Case in point, trying to keep a Thanatos from jumping. When you're taking 1500 dps from fighters you won't last long unless you're dual plated and fully tanked. Obviously, this is less of an issue when you've got logistics supporting you. The base 20% bonus to resists will help this.
b. A big factor in keeping any hostile caps from leaving is capacitor. Bubbles eat some decent capacitor. Similarly, you need to be aware of placement. You may be burning to place another bubble to keep as much as you can on grid. Now your chewing through cap on multiple bubbles (typically 2) and a prop mod. This tends to promote both nos modules and cap boosters.
c. If your tackling a single cap or a fleet of caps you're going to need help. Traditionally that help has come through the lighting of a cyno. I wouldn't expect that to change much. This is just another module consumes a high slot.

Some suggestions to achieve a true dps/tackle boat:
1. Give a base reduction to the power grid/cpu requirements of turrets/missile launchers
2. Convert the dps mechanism to drones for all heavy interdictors (decent drone bays with bonuses to dps/tank)
3. Increase the amount of cpu/pg available (not a real viable option since this opens the door to other undesirable results)
4. Limit the fitting of bubble generators to 1 per ship and reduce the cycle time by half. This allows for a cyno and lets you move effectively to place you bubble. Also helps you to not get alpha of field by a small capital fleet.
Faren Shalni
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#352 - 2014-10-31 20:22:48 UTC
Spencer Owl wrote:
I can fly a Devoter or an Onyx. The only one I have true experience in is the Devoter. I've been pondering this change for some time and I was hoping for some different changes but it doesn't look like it's going to happen. So here is my 2 cents.

1. I agree with the capital gate mechanics.
2. I have an issue with the dual purpose dps/tackle role intended for these ships. Here is why.
a. Any self respecting heavy dictor pilot is going to tank the hell out of their ship. This limits the power grid available for turrets/missile launchers. Over tanking is for good reason. A cruiser that's attempting to keep a capitol on grid will need to handle the dps. Case in point, trying to keep a Thanatos from jumping. When you're taking 1500 dps from fighters you won't last long unless you're dual plated and fully tanked. Obviously, this is less of an issue when you've got logistics supporting you. The base 20% bonus to resists will help this.
b. A big factor in keeping any hostile caps from leaving is capacitor. Bubbles eat some decent capacitor. Similarly, you need to be aware of placement. You may be burning to place another bubble to keep as much as you can on grid. Now your chewing through cap on multiple bubbles (typically 2) and a prop mod. This tends to promote both nos modules and cap boosters.
c. If your tackling a single cap or a fleet of caps you're going to need help. Traditionally that help has come through the lighting of a cyno. I wouldn't expect that to change much. This is just another module consumes a high slot.

Some suggestions to achieve a true dps/tackle boat:
1. Give a base reduction to the power grid/cpu requirements of turrets/missile launchers
2. Convert the dps mechanism to drones for all heavy interdictors (decent drone bays with bonuses to dps/tank)
3. Increase the amount of cpu/pg available (not a real viable option since this opens the door to other undesirable results)
4. Limit the fitting of bubble generators to 1 per ship and reduce the cycle time by half. This allows for a cyno and lets you move effectively to place you bubble. Also helps you to not get alpha of field by a small capital fleet.


You forgot my cloak on it


Seriously though the Double/triple bubble is incredibly needed in wspace. 1/5 times rolling a hole will leave it crit and not collapsed. If you jump a cruiser through it dies....on the wrong side. so typically you will see a triple bubble HiC use the bubbles to reduce its mass to less than a frigs and jump through then jump back t close the hole

So Much Space
Sigras
Conglomo
#353 - 2014-11-01 09:46:27 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
Sigras wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm noticing a fair bit of consternation at the fact that the Devoter is getting a small dronebay but the Phobos is not. The optimal bonus on the Phobos has also been raising some eyebrows.
The key thing that these players are missing is the distinctive flavour we are working towards giving the entire Roden Shipyards line. The old design for Roden Shipyards was focused on a fairly watered down use of missiles and hybrids. This left them in an underwhelming place compared to the other two Gallente T2 corps.

In the new world order for Gallente T2 ships, each manufacturer has a clear set of strengths and a unifying theme:

Roden Shipyards ships can be used as effective blasterboats, but tend to lean towards railguns with big bonuses to hybrid optimal range and tracking. They are a bit slower than Duvolle ships, and have the weakest drone capability of all the Gallente ships, but they tend to have more low slots and more armor HP, as well as better sensors.

I have no problem with the lore here, but as far as balancing is concerned, the devoter does everything the phobos does, but the devoter is just better at it.

from a game balance standpoint, the phobos is underwhelming compared to the devoter....

it does the same damage (pulse lasers + drones vs rails)
has a better tank (better resist profile, more slot options)
is a little faster
is a little smaller (sig radius)

what advantage does the phobos have?


An extra mid?

I do think you will find the devotor will be king as usual due to its stats for doing the primary role. the phobos will likely be better for dps as rails atm are better than beams (pretty much the same ability's with less fitting and cap use)

The devoter gets a range bonus to lasers, so to engage at maximum infini-point range you only need scorch pulse lasers which do almost as much damage as rails, more with drones.
Enya Sparhawk
Black Tea and Talons
#354 - 2014-11-02 05:30:01 UTC
You should create a script to resist micro jumping...

Fíorghrá: Grá na fírinne

Maireann croí éadrom i bhfad.

Bíonn súil le muir ach ní bhíonn súil le tír.

Is maith an scéalaí an aimsir.

When the lost ships of Greece finally return home...
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#355 - 2014-11-02 14:41:22 UTC
Faren Shalni wrote:
An extra mid?

I do think you will find the devotor will be king as usual due to its stats for doing the primary role. the phobos will likely be better for dps as rails atm are better than beams (pretty much the same ability's with less fitting and cap use)


EM is a vastly superior damage type to kinetic. A beam Devoter is much better than a rail Phobos.

The reason railguns get used is because rail ships with +100% optimal range exist, which lets them outrange sentry drones.
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#356 - 2014-11-02 22:25:38 UTC
Enya Sparhawk wrote:
You should create a script to resist micro jumping...
They're called scrams.
nospet
#357 - 2014-11-03 04:39:38 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Here's the Heavy Interdictor changes! The main thrust of the rebalance is to give all of the hictors a more robust secondary combat role. We'd like taking an occasional hictor along with a roaming fleet to feel fine even if you don't expect to run into a supercap.

Firstly, we are enabling overheat for Warp Disruption Field Generators with an overheat bonus that reduced cycle time by 1/3. This allows a hictor pilot to strategically reduce the cycle time of his bubble so that he can quickly disable it and receive reps if he gets primaried.

We're also making one significant addition to the focused point script:

When a Rorqual, Dreadnaught, Carrier, Supercarrier or Titan is pointed by a focused point they will not be able to jump through gates.

This is to counter the power of brawling with your caps on lowsec gates, and if things go bad jumping through and cynoing out since nobody can bubble the other side.

And here are the stat changes themselves:

Devoter

Amarr Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret capacitor use
5% bonus to Medium Energy Turret damage

Heavy Interdictor Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Energy Turret optimal range
5% bonus to range of Warp Disruption Fields

Role Bonus:
20% bonus to all Armor Resists
Can fit Warp Disruption Field Generators

Slot layout: 6H, 3M, 7L; 5(+1) turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1265 PWG, 368 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1100(-293) / 2400(+312) / 1800(+112)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1625 / 335s / 4.85
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 215(+12) / 0.51(-0.084) / 16,200,000(+1,000,000) / 11.45s(-1.07)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 25(+25) / 50(+50)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 65km(+10) / 250(-10) / 6(-1)
Sensor strength: 15
Signature radius: 140
Cargo Capacity: 375(+95)


Onyx

Caldari Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Kinetic Missile damage
5% bonus to Missile Launcher rate of fire

Heavy Interdictor Bonuses:
10% bonus to Missile velocity
5% bonus to range of Warp Disruption Fields

Role Bonus:
20% bonus to all Shield Resists
Can fit Warp Disruption Field Generators

Slot layout: 6H, 6M, 4L; 0 turrets, 5 launchers
Fittings: 900(+65) PWG, 560 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2700(+696) / 1200(+4) / 1400(-6)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1250(+187.5) / 335s / 3.73(+0.56)
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 200(+2) / 0.55(+0.001) / 15,400,000(-20,000) / 11.74s()
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 80km / 240(+5) / 7(+1)
Sensor strength: 19(+3)
Signature radius: 150(+15)
Cargo Capacity: 450


Phobos

Gallente Cruiser Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret tracking
5% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret rate of fire

Heavy Interdictor Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Hybrid Turret optimal range
5% bonus to range of Warp Disruption Fields

Role Bonus:
20% bonus to all Armor Resists
Can fit Warp Disruption Field Generators

Slot layout: 6H, 4M, 6L; 5 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 1165 PWG, 375 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 1300(+140) / 2200(+160) / 2500(-31)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1375 / 335s / 4.1
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 205(-4) / 0.58(+0.0285) / 14,000,000(-1,080,000) / 11.26s(-0.88)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 70km(+5) / 250(+25) / 6
Sensor strength: 17(+2)
Signature radius: 160
Cargo Capacity: 400(+85)


Broadsword

Minmatar Cruiser Bonuses:
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire
5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Heavy Interdictor Bonuses:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff
5% bonus to range of Warp Disruption Fields

Role Bonus:
20% bonus to all Shield Resists
Can fit Warp Disruption Field Generators

Slot layout: 6H, 6M, 4L; 5 turrets, 3 launchers
Fittings: 1010 PWG, 392 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2000(+418) / 1600(-404) / 1400(-6)
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1250 / 335s / 3.73
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 220(+6) / 0.55(-0.0215) / 15,000,000(+180,000) / 11.44s(-0.3)
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 0 / 0
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 55km / 255(+10) / 6(+1)
Sensor strength: 14(+1)
Signature radius: 130
Cargo Capacity: 452

Let us know what you think!


I never knew the forums turned into we'll take one suggestion and stop reading after this feels pretty useless giving our opinions after you stop reading after one suggestion you like.
nospet
#358 - 2014-11-03 04:40:37 UTC
All we get now are here are the changes we'll take one suggestion into consideration but we are doing this idea whether you like it or not Shocked
King Fu Hostile
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#359 - 2014-11-03 11:40:16 UTC
I don't think the Phobos is as bad as people think, it is better than Devoter at holding targets in place (scram+web-cbooster / dual web+scram). The damage of these won't be a deal-breaker, it basically just means that a HIC adds a bit more meaningful contribution to small gang dps than before.





Hagika
Standard Corp 123
#360 - 2014-11-03 23:34:23 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
The onyx changes are... odd. Still keeping the long outdated kinetic missile bonus? Still has a significant HP bonus over the other HICs?


Still? A Broadsword has more HP's and a better resist profile than the onyx. the onyx has a huge EM gap that requires you to drop in an EM hardener while i can run 2 invulns on a sword and do better.

I can fly all 4 HICs and i usually just stick with the sword unless i need to slap on sen boosters for faster locks and then i just go for devoter.