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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW lp change suggestions: The Dirge of Farmers

Author
Reynas Arthie
Doomheim
#81 - 2014-12-08 21:59:26 UTC
I have been bouncing in/out of FW and piracy since it was introduced.

I have had way more pvp while actively participating in FW to be honest. And making enough isk to easily support my ship losing habit I have developed.

Now I still LOVE the freedom of being a pirate but I would have to go out an PVE (usually exploration combat sites) to gain meaningful isk to support my loses.

I have said this many time and I'll repeat it for extra clarification.

FW CANNOT BE A PURELY PVP ACTIVITY! There just isn't the player base to allow it. Also there would just be a huge swing in one direction then it would die out or be exploited to the max and CCP would kill it off.

Right now I would say that FW is probably in the best state of balance that it has been since it's inception and that any 'imbalance' in the factions is a cause of the players not the mechanics. Remember the more mechanics you introduce to 'control' player actions the more you remove yourself from the sandbox.
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Awesome Alliance
#82 - 2014-12-08 22:02:52 UTC
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Add some check to defensive plexing as per offensive.

Ships with stabs and regular cloaks fitted can enter plexes but will not trigger the timer.

This may not remove farmers entirely but will make them largely indistinguishable from regular low-sp players and they will have to expose themselves to at least some risk. Even if the main expense for them losing a ship is their reship time more than the ship itself.



^
This is the best way forward.

I have posted the same thing in the past and was disappointed when CCP just went with the 30km cloak radius.

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#83 - 2014-12-08 22:48:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
IbanezLaney wrote:
Crosi Wesdo wrote:
Add some check to defensive plexing as per offensive.

Ships with stabs and regular cloaks fitted can enter plexes but will not trigger the timer.

This may not remove farmers entirely but will make them largely indistinguishable from regular low-sp players and they will have to expose themselves to at least some risk. Even if the main expense for them losing a ship is their reship time more than the ship itself.



^
This is the best way forward.

I have posted the same thing in the past and was disappointed when CCP just went with the 30km cloak radius.




Maybe just adding a massive cap drain on warp on the module itself. That way they get trolled with a flat tire every 5 AU's trying to make warp with, say, the stacked penalties of having three stabs on. That should slow their farming down nicely in a great FML way, while giving the giving the increased warp core stability a nice semi realistic setback and keeping the actual effectiveness of the module (something people PO'ed have not admitted) intact.


Cloaks ain't too much of a problem. We just need some fancy Sansha probes that can scan cloaked ship sigs down and have the probes cause heat damage to the active cloak mod by their proximity. Say an insta burn out of the mod if you can get what would be a 100% warp in sig on regular probes. This way an active pilot that is cloaked can still cov ops around and paste up the cloak when he needs to. I should add that this can make it interesting to drop probes on grid as a defensive net against null bombings, or used to catch a cloaker as a net for hunters. In that case an insta burn out might be OP.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#84 - 2014-12-28 18:00:05 UTC
::Bump or bust::

Because the death of a few things, could bring life to others.
Boozbaz
Brutor Clan
#85 - 2014-12-28 21:06:46 UTC
One of the reasons Minmatar hasn't taken many systems back in the war is because plexing is boring as sh!t.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#86 - 2014-12-29 01:50:20 UTC
Boozbaz wrote:
One of the reasons Minmatar hasn't taken many systems back in the war is because plexing is boring as sh!t.


Kill off bombers and maybe everyone will be out plexing instead of avoiding conflict in a squishy SB.

Add a pack of beer and militia buds, problem solved!

I just don't think you guys will ever understand. I'm glad Amarr had it in them to keep hitting and go for gold. Now if you force people to plex, you create the environment that will bring hunters and content, but you fail to see that plexing is a reward for roaming and finding no fight. The point is to fight and have fun, spinning a plex is only a means to that end but all you fellas see is LP at half the rate of gain than missions, with double the time invested.

Therefore, SB missionijg must surely die! Gate restriction on mission gates to save the heart of the southern war!
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#87 - 2014-12-30 08:15:15 UTC
a) ?? Farmers use t1 frigates for dplexing and I'm not sure what they use for oplexing, but I use a t1 cruiser (vexor).
b) Didn't really understand this but it pretty much means it will automatically tick back to default if noone's in there.. How does this affect farmers? If there's no one in there, they can go in. If there are people in there, they would be ticking the timer anyway.
c) This doesn't kill farmers either. It just adds to the usefulness of them.
d) And this would mean they're even worse for strategic oplexing. They'd target the lower contested systems, which means that if you try and get a system up they'd avoid it because it's easier to farm out of the way systems no one has bothered plexing.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#88 - 2014-12-30 14:02:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
a) ...


1) I added some more detail to OP. I am NOT talking about plexes/outposts here. I am talking about accepted missions from the militia agents. There are acceleration gates on warp-in to every single one of these sites, be it lvl 1, 2, 3, or 4 missions. They come up on the overview for everyone to see and anyone can warp to them and come in. I think this change is needed, as it puts a similar bracket on what can complete them, same as the new burner missions and likewise see in our own Novice, Small, and Medium Outpost restrictions on hull type.

2) Timer roll-back affects farmers because farmers always run. Always. If they run, their work will go to waste while I chase them between celestials. If they cloak, I can sit on the button and wait out my side of the tick (if there were two separate timers, defensive and offensive). Instead, we chase for a minute or two, get mad and leave system, or come back with something with three points, instalock Thrashers. We can't do much about a cloaker that burns slightly off except hope they are dumb, make a mistake, are AFK, or fall asleep. Beyond that, you sit on someone elses work to your detriment with no added gain for winning site control. In fact, it is almost like a penalty by having to waste a substancial amount of added time on a bloated timer.

3) Any farmer interested in LP will go to find the highest payout. This is a Nerf to D-plexing payout and a buff to in-house defense, which is more important but has less of a reward in time investment than what it is now, which borders on the verge of the masochistic. Any system below 70% is usually not being dplexed by a farmer when tier is 2 or below. It adds to the usefulness of defensive plexing, at a cost to self-interested LP gain with a change that will also balance out the loss of SB mission LP donations, if such a change were to be made.

4) Updated with a change suggestion for WCS module penalties. Forget the damn NPC spawn change. For the sake of sanity, this was the old #4 4)Have the current NPC receive spawns in respect to system level. At lvl 0-1 no respawn after clearing npc, and five subsequent spawns (not all at the same time) for the fully upgraded V. Have them spawn a minute and a half or something after each is cleared.
ValentinaDLM
SoE Roughriders
Electus Matari
#89 - 2014-12-30 20:27:46 UTC
I really don't care if farmers are stabbed, stabs already have counters. If you don't know who fits stabs and who doesn't and fit accordingly then that is kinda your fault mobile depots and more points aren't that expensive and if you want to whine about crippling your shield tank then you are far too worried about a stabbed farmer.

Also since you can catch and kill farmers with stabs especially if you can fly a Keres rollbacks on timers are kinda silly. I get the logic but I see that as creating a war zone where systems very rarely change hands.

Moreover eve is a social game, when we have stabbed farmers in a system it is very simple we just split up and hold all the plexes in a system. Just fly with friends and make minmatar slightly better so that more people will join their side (VNI is awesome SFI is alright, the prices reflect this)
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#90 - 2014-12-30 23:50:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Even if you had a mobile depot, what if you were in a Slicer or Punisher? WCS don't add much to fighting, and cornering one is like clubbing a baby seal. Sure, an ugly one, but still. Hardly the best content to log in to do specifically.

Plus, comparing a Keres, one with high native scan rez, does not come across as normal as you would make refitting seem. A Merlin, for example, would have to drop its tank to refit. You are essentially adding 4mil for your troubles, half of what most frigs are worth.

To say I should fly in a group, but ignore the same argument can be made for the WCS plexers, who NEVER fly as a group (when it's not an army of alts), is slightly contradictory.
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#91 - 2014-12-31 00:14:27 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:
a) ...


1) I added some more detail to OP. I am NOT talking about plexes/outposts here. I am talking about accepted missions from the militia agents. There are acceleration gates on warp-in to every single one of these sites, be it lvl 1, 2, 3, or 4 missions. They come up on the overview for everyone to see and anyone can warp to them and come in. I think this change is needed, as it puts a similar bracket on what can complete them, same as the new burner missions and likewise see in our own Novice, Small, and Medium Outpost restrictions on hull type.

2) Timer roll-back affects farmers because farmers always run. Always. If they run, their work will go to waste while I chase them between celestials. If they cloak, I can sit on the button and wait out my side of the tick (if there were two separate timers, defensive and offensive). Instead, we chase for a minute or two, get mad and leave system, or come back with something with three points, instalock Thrashers. We can't do much about a cloaker that burns slightly off except hope they are dumb, make a mistake, are AFK, or fall asleep. Beyond that, you sit on someone elses work to your detriment with no added gain for winning site control. In fact, it is almost like a penalty by having to waste a substancial amount of added time on a bloated timer.

3) Any farmer interested in LP will go to find the highest payout. This is a Nerf to D-plexing payout and a buff to in-house defense, which is more important but has less of a reward in time investment than what it is now, which borders on the verge of the masochistic. Any system below 70% is usually not being dplexed by a farmer when tier is 2 or below. It adds to the usefulness of defensive plexing, at a cost to self-interested LP gain with a change that will also balance out the loss of SB mission LP donations, if such a change were to be made.

4) Updated with a change suggestion for WCS module penalties. Forget the damn NPC spawn change. For the sake of sanity, this was the old #4 4)Have the current NPC receive spawns in respect to system level. At lvl 0-1 no respawn after clearing npc, and five subsequent spawns (not all at the same time) for the fully upgraded V. Have them spawn a minute and a half or something after each is cleared.
a) Makes sense. Kind of ruins FW missions, but I suppose that's what you want.
b) Don't understand but if it hurts plex farmers, awesome.
c) Ah, I thought you meant keep the LP payout the same as it currently is and make what currently vanishes go into the ihub.
d) While I do like this idea, I don't think it could be balanced, since it would ruin travel through lowsec as a whole (if you fly stabbed because goddamn gatecamps) and other situations where you would fit stabs (see: carriers/dreads, industrials)
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#92 - 2014-12-31 02:03:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
a) Precisely. A lot of people run them in Navy Issue long range ships. Usually a sentry VNI. But this is the point, to get people in ships that are engageable and that will encourage a group effort. PVP ships can do them too. I've mentioned already that a pair of navy AB frigs can take out lvl 4's for every faction except Gallente FW. As for SFI's, they are great anti-frig boats with high survivability. The Scythe Fleet Issue is amazing with rapid lights. I think navy cruisers are pretty balanced as far as what each faction has available to use and to sell.

Conclusion:
*They will still be viable and good ISK.
*It will remove people that solo them in an anti-social way, in anti-confrontational fits. These same people who others foster a false illusion that they have no impact on the rest or on the market items pvp plexers rely on.
*It will remove the massive advantage of being able to sustain high tier and the force multiplier of the farmer horde.
*It will put people into space as a group and encourage the environment that creates the Plex Fighter instead of the Mission Scrooge, who eventually quits of boredom, turns into a market mover, or the slaving provider for others, with the exception of the few that have the discipline to find a balance.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#93 - 2014-12-31 03:10:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Jurico Elemenohpe wrote:

d) While I do like this idea, I don't think it could be balanced, since it would ruin travel through lowsec as a whole (if you fly stabbed because goddamn gatecamps) and other situations where you would fit stabs (see: carriers/dreads, industrials)


You're right on that one. The Indies could always be given an exception role bonus, as some of the t2 Transport Ships have native warp core strength without any added targetting penalty. The cap required to jump takes mass into consideration, unless this has been changed.

warpCapacitorNeed x (1 - WarpDriveOp x 0.1) x Mass x Distance = Cap

Adding a value that significantly increases the cap need would do it, or one that adds 2mil mass or something fixed. Something that would be big for a small rig sized ship, but insignificant to a capital. There are options.
Jason Udan Ender
Azathoth The Darkness
#94 - 2014-12-31 08:10:42 UTC
only thing i would think of is to increase the pay out of def plexing to make people want to do it other then meh lost this system lets get it back and make more lp

other than that i see no problems

people are saying to much isk well if you look at incursion WH and null rating fw is on the low end if isk makeing and it is not as constant and can get ended real fast by a few interceptors or an error piloting if you in a glass bomber
Jurico Elemenohpe
Flipsid3 Tactics
#95 - 2014-12-31 10:51:37 UTC
Jason Udan Ender wrote:
only thing i would think of is to increase the pay out of def plexing to make people want to do it other then meh lost this system lets get it back and make more lp

other than that i see no problems

people are saying to much isk well if you look at incursion WH and null rating fw is on the low end if isk makeing and it is not as constant and can get ended real fast by a few interceptors or an error piloting if you in a glass bomber
Null ratting..? Maybe if you run anoms in a non-shiny ship.