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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW lp change suggestions: The Dirge of Farmers

Author
Phaade
Surreptitious Technologies
Shadow Ultimatum
#41 - 2014-11-01 19:21:09 UTC
Dual timer is a wonderful idea.
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#42 - 2014-11-02 01:37:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Olmeca Gold
Greetings from a solo SB FW mission farmer.

I don't know why people don't like solo SB mission runners this much (well there is a general hate toward bombers anyways). The faulty assumption of the defenders of changes proposed here is that once you remove solo SB FW mission running you think these pilots will join the actual PvP.

I joined FW for it and I do it for money. Currently, I don't have any contribution to my militia at all. Not in LP donating, not in system contesting. When you are in it for selfish ISK farming, you don't donate much of your LP anyways. I do not have much effect on the outcome of FW I am in. So yes, I would prefer joining the winning side (though when I joined Amarr it was on t1), but I have no effect on keeping it on the currently winning side.

I believe most of SB solo fw mission farmers are in it for the same reasons with me.

Now assume CCP removed SB's from missions.

Will this make FW more PvP oriented? Will I drop mission carebearing and join the actual PvP? Not really. If risk/reward of doing FW missions becomes incompetent with other methods of isk-making I will just drop FW itself since I am in it for the money. I currently prioritize ISK-making over PvP. When I leave FW, the sole impact will be the actual PvP'ers will have one paper torpedo boat to pew at. If you like things to pew at and having killmails, this is not a good change.

FW missions are one of the actually functioning ways to make proper isk/hr for those of us that don't want to join a corp in a particular period of their gaming. Through our carebearing, we provide isk for us and for the game in a way that creates more stuff for you to pew at, since in the end all the isk is made to be destroyed.

Summary: My being a SB mission farmer is a harmless thing for both sides of the FW, remove it and you'll just have one less ship to shoot at (which I think doesn't matter much also).

PS: I would however agree making actual PvP more rewarding so PvP'ers get a bigger cut from total LP value of their faction. This wouldn't involve removing SB's from l4 missions but increasing PvP LP rewards + introducing new ones. This way ISK value of LP of all sides would drop, bombers would make less isk/hr, and this money would directly go to PvP'ers.

I also would agree making FW tier system more balanced such that there is still incentive to join the currently losing side and the winning side won't be able to hold the upper hand forever.


Plus: FW missions are great for PvE players to get to know their way around overview, dscan, gatecamps and other PvP stuff. This makes them slowly orient into PvP, and perhaps motivate them to spend the isk they make to ships they can FW PvP in. In fact this has been the case for me. As an EvE newcomer, thanks to FW missions that can be done with low skill investment for great value by just taking a some PvP risks, I am motivated to train to fit some PvP frigates so I will join the real action soon.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#43 - 2014-11-02 13:34:33 UTC
Olimeca. Thank you for your honesty, but soon I think you will find that your statement has only served to help my own. You have just listed almost every negative I could about Isk Bombers Online:

•they do not contribute to the war-effort. Those that do, do so only with the pretense that dumping 100-300k LP on system upgrades will serve them in later (or pending) turn-in's to make them millions of LP instead of thousands.

•they have no interest in pvp

•they have no interest in social interactions

And lastly, our greatest concern,

•farmers devalue the commodity of Loyalty Store items, there creating a very real and devastating affect on our income from these same items to the effect of about a 20% negative impact on the lowest tiers. LOWEST!

I'm sure you do not speak for all mission bombers in FW, but you do for the intended majority that this change it aimed to alleviate from duty.

I hope you do try pvp some day. For the price of one bomber, you can fit 20 nice frigs. If that bomber have even one faction mod, you could t2 fit them all.
Irya Boone
The Scope
#44 - 2014-11-02 13:50:31 UTC
I would say no because you can't SB a gallente FW mission so

farmers devalue the commodity of Loyalty Store items, there creating a very real and devastating affect on our income from these same items to the effect of about a 20% negative impact on the lowest tiers. LOWEST!

doesn't apply for Gallente , i'm fine with that ^^

No rollertimebackBS.. , just put the Two ennemies Npc ( we have already talked about it) and

Reduce the number of Novice and Small plexes or make them irrelevant for occupancy ( only for LP)
and make only Medium( +40% pop) and Large matter for occupancy and all your problems will be solve !!

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB

Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
#45 - 2014-11-02 14:16:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Zen Guerrilla
You can not stop people from avoiding pvp. Even in FW, in lowsec, in plexes designed for pvp.

No matter what you change, as long as it is profitable, people will find a way to avoid the risk to get the isk.

So deal with it. It's like highsec carebears. You can't just force them into pvp, you'll rather just force them out of the game.

The only thing i'd like to see is plex size tied to contestation. Novice .4%, small .5%, medium .6% and large .7%. That would make a lot more sense and slow down farmer influence.

pew pew

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#46 - 2014-11-02 15:14:20 UTC
I posting with the intent to affect Minmatar and Amarr theatre too. Seeing how healthy the Gallente side is in content, why would you disagree, even if it changed little in our own side?

The war was one by novice and small plexing! I would not change that they affect the warzone, though a decrease in their value would be good.

As for Crosi's eternal NPC combat, I think that would take too much balancing time to apply in a working model. A change to their spawn number seems more appropriateand less silly when looked at objectively. Two militants firing at each other forever, what madness!
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#47 - 2014-11-02 17:07:18 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Olimeca. Thank you for your honesty, but soon I think you will find that your statement has only served to help my own. You have just listed almost every negative I could about Isk Bombers Online:

•they do not contribute to the war-effort. Those that do, do so only with the pretense that dumping 100-300k LP on system upgrades will serve them in later (or pending) turn-in's to make them millions of LP instead of thousands.

•they have no interest in pvp

•they have no interest in social interactions

And lastly, our greatest concern,

•farmers devalue the commodity of Loyalty Store items, there creating a very real and devastating affect on our income from these same items to the effect of about a 20% negative impact on the lowest tiers. LOWEST!

I'm sure you do not speak for all mission bombers in FW, but you do for the intended majority that this change it aimed to alleviate from duty.

I hope you do try pvp some day. For the price of one bomber, you can fit 20 nice frigs. If that bomber have even one faction mod, you could t2 fit them all.



So you no longer argue removing farmer SB's will motivate people for FW PvP. Because even if LP value increases, people who want to earn isk without learning how to properly PvP will not join FW.

Instead, you say you prefer earning more isk through FW PvP at the cost of not having carebears around to shoot at.

What I proposed already included increasing the LP/isk share of actual PvP'ers. Its upside is that if it is done in a balanced manner, FW will still attract PvE people to take PvP risks, thus they will learn basics, and get involved with the actual FW more in time. And meanwhile they farm, you always have a chance to blow them up in their petty bombers if you do things right.

Now what you want is all the isk and give none to PvE'ers, and this removes the upsides altogether. I believe this wouldn't be at the general interest of neither bomber farmers nor the actual PvP'ers, because in the end what pilots in this game strive for most is finding stuff to shoot at. Even carebears like me admit that mission running or isk-making are just a means for the end of blowing actual PvP stuff up. We eventually leave our bombers and get inside a garmur or a tengu, providing you some expensive **** to kill and brag about.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#48 - 2014-11-02 17:53:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Olimeca, what your saying about LP increases for kills has already been done and it was hijacked in the most ingenious way by Goons, then it was nerfed. You still get some currently, but usually impressive amounts only when a Slave set head gets freed from its gooye confines.

As for encouraging you to fly as a noob to pad someone else's killboard is not what I meant, even though it might end up this way, with horrible fires and fits for a few months. Then your sea legs will adjust and even if you don't catch on, you will get better at survival.

I would rather shoot 20 ships that attempt to give a good fight than a hopeless single bomber the loot fairy did not smile upon. The final outcome I want to see is people interested in winning in a hard environment, forging long-lasting bonds and memories, than bs about which side is losing due to an invisible Isk war.

We will still make LP plexing. A few farmers is not a big deal in plexing; recent changes were good, let's keep it that way. And please give me better reasons than, You can't make us fight!1!!
Ashwind Houssa
Therapists Inc
#49 - 2014-11-03 15:21:09 UTC
How about we adjust the system so that if you are in your allies warzone you get their tier payout?

Not that I don't enjoy watching Minmatar corps drop FW for a day to switch sides to keep their LP coming in, but seeing nothing but Gallente corps farming Amarr plexes in worms and warping out as soon as you land on gate is getting old.

Doctor Knuckles
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2014-11-03 16:32:52 UTC
Meh. I'm really not seeing that many farmers around lately to be honest. I can count them on one hand, that's how many i met in the last couple weeks
Olmeca Gold
The Free Folk
#51 - 2014-11-05 01:06:31 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
Olimeca, what your saying about LP increases for kills has already been done and it was hijacked in the most ingenious way by Goons, then it was nerfed. You still get some currently, but usually impressive amounts only when a Slave set head gets freed from its gooye confines.

As for encouraging you to fly as a noob to pad someone else's killboard is not what I meant, even though it might end up this way, with horrible fires and fits for a few months. Then your sea legs will adjust and even if you don't catch on, you will get better at survival.

I would rather shoot 20 ships that attempt to give a good fight than a hopeless single bomber the loot fairy did not smile upon. The final outcome I want to see is people interested in winning in a hard environment, forging long-lasting bonds and memories, than bs about which side is losing due to an invisible Isk war.

We will still make LP plexing. A few farmers is not a big deal in plexing; recent changes were good, let's keep it that way. And please give me better reasons than, You can't make us fight!1!!


Well, while what you say about "targets giving a good fight" sounds theoretically nice, in the small amount of time I have spent in this game I observed that most of the fights have a predetermined winning side due to one side being correctly shipped, careful and prepared, while the other side being in a bad ship, careless and unprepared but got himself in a bad situation. Most combats in Eve are bait/fish situations.

Maybe some 1v1 frig fights (which maybe can be found FW more often than anywhere else) can be excluded from this rule. But I really wish more PvP fights in this game would depend on in-combat factors (some sort of gaming skill) rather than before-combat factors (choosing the better ship, fit, combat situation, team , having more knowledge, experience and what have you). This being said, shooting a careless bomber who's been around for you to point is not that different than most of the combats in Eve.

I don't know about what kind of changes have been tried. I guess if a ship yields more isk in lp form than its worth than the system can surely be abused. But I'm sure there can be ways to increase actual-pvp'er lp payout / mission runner payout. This was my core suggestion.

Covert Cloaky FC. Sustainable Whaler.

Youtube channel.

Yuri Antollare
Moira.
Villore Accords
#52 - 2014-11-05 02:46:31 UTC
One specific poorly framed algorithm was exploited, as such CCP will never revisit the objective the algorythm was supposed to be supporting.

It is incredibly easy to think of any number of expressions that would prevent what Goons did, 1/3 of the hull cost of the kill in LP is an easy starting point, but CCP is just lazy.

The fact that killing (solo) 7 WT faction frigates is the equivelant in LP to spinning a novice button for ten minutes (you'd probably get slightly more spinning the button) is patently absurd, yet here we are.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#53 - 2014-11-05 03:49:09 UTC
I used to think the same thing, but rock, paper, scissors formulas are only a smaller factor in trying to outwit another human player that uses something absurd and preys on your assumptions. You soon start to learn to appreciate many crafty enemies and that familiarity is unique. Join those few highlights and add the Six Degrees of Separation, and you meet some pretty interesting folks. Then maybe wild ridiculous fits will occur to you to try and you'll get yelled at by killboard junkies for being a bad. It's priceless.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#54 - 2014-11-13 15:18:35 UTC
::bump::

Because you should witness the unfolding of these events in their fullest horror in tier V Amarr/Minmatar theatre. Watch the pvp plummet and the isk farming bombers soar.
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#55 - 2014-11-13 18:32:44 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
::bump::

Because you should witness the unfolding of these events in their fullest horror in tier V Amarr/Minmatar theatre. Watch the pvp plummet and the isk farming bombers soar.

Our pvp cup overflows every time we hit Tier 1.




Materia Stone
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#56 - 2014-11-16 10:36:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Materia Stone
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Resetting to neutral timers is a good idea. The rest I don't really see a point for.

If you want to really make it more about PvP the easy answer is to restrict the capturable warzone to the border systems to funnel people into conflict with each-other. If you also set up a supply line concept for the behind lines systems (basically, make it so that you need a chain of systems to friendly high sec or your capturable systems become much easier to take) then you would add a large amount of strategy to the system control game.

I would also really love to see FW missions removed entirely.


+1 to this

* system upgrades improving the rats
* Make system upgrades worth more LP but also reduce the drain on it when offensive plexing occurs... IE 1 million LP for level 5
* Make timers increase depending on how far you are from a friendly system. +1 system is standard, +2 systems is +10%, +3 systems is 20%... etc...

A New player Exploring New Eden

Hitchhiker's Guide to New Eden - See my blog for details of my 'adventures' (changed from the word 'exploits' as I have found out that is a dirty word lol).

Materia Stone
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#57 - 2014-11-16 10:52:35 UTC
Actually on further reflection... Point 3 could be extra rats inside the complex... Meaning you would need a gang/fleet of pilots to take a system in the middle of the warzone.

A New player Exploring New Eden

Hitchhiker's Guide to New Eden - See my blog for details of my 'adventures' (changed from the word 'exploits' as I have found out that is a dirty word lol).

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#58 - 2014-11-16 15:09:24 UTC
I like your suggestions, Materia (ff7 throwback?), but buffer drain on the upgrades is currently half the value of the corresponding offensive plex. This isn't all that bad and a day and a half push to pull a system down isn't either. A nerf to novices and smalls would push offensives, even a 24 hour one, past three days. As it is, how realistic is it to assume your pilots have enough time (your average pilot) to plex Large and medium plexes, one being half an hour and the other 20min. Two of each equals the majority of people's session time on a normal login day, imo.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#59 - 2014-11-16 17:58:58 UTC
Materia Stone wrote:

* Make system upgrades worth more LP but also reduce the drain on it when offensive plexing occurs... IE 1 million LP for level 5
* Make timers increase depending on how far you are from a friendly system. +1 system is standard, +2 systems is +10%, +3 systems is 20%... etc...


Curiously, I wonder these points here though. I'm slightly suspicious that such things can only be uttered by a pilot in tier V while shoveling LP with a mission SB for that fabled 500k LP an hour, as only such a one can afford a ridiculous 1 million donation for level 5 upgrade of a single system. Let's increase the LP for turn in's in high level systems too, and top off and seal the deal on that awesome perma-win condition.

Nice try, Slaver!
Materia Stone
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#60 - 2014-11-17 00:41:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Materia Stone
BTW this my main. ;).

In my blogs I'm happy to be in character but here I am discussing what I see as the gaps in the system. Personally I only have 2mil isk in the wallet as I only farm LP when I need to restock ships. I also don't think 1 million is a lot of LP for a large group to muster. System upgrades should be about defense of the system not about carebearing. I'm happy to make a full proposal on it but I think it should extremely be difficult for the Amarr to take systems like Aset etc... It just seems too easy for the solo farmers to sway the battle... Get it back to being about small gangs and fleet battles!!!!

In short take it back to 3 tiers and 3 system levels.

War zone Tiers based on war zone system control NOT levels.

Tier 1 - 75% LP, 25% buff to rats stats
Tier 2 - 100% LP, 0% buff to rats stats
Tier 3 - 125% LP, -25% buff to rat stats (Yes this means that if your winning your defence is spread thinner so your rats are weaker)

System Levels

Level 0 - standard number of rats, no bonuses
Level 1 - 150,000 LP, 1 extra rat per plex spawn, 5% bonus to POS defences and dos for the owner
Level 2 - 500,000 LP, 2 extra rats per plex spawn, 10 % bonus to POS stats
Level 3 - 1,000,000 LP, 3 extra rats per plex spawn, 15% bonus to POS stats

A New player Exploring New Eden

Hitchhiker's Guide to New Eden - See my blog for details of my 'adventures' (changed from the word 'exploits' as I have found out that is a dirty word lol).