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Warfare & Tactics

 
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FW lp change suggestions: The Dirge of Farmers

Author
Cattegirn
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#21 - 2014-10-23 21:58:30 UTC
If you want more PVP shouldn't the LP be increased? It seems to me that's the way to draw in targets, and if you want to fight anything bigger than cloaky stabbed frigates in mission hubs you need to make the reward for doing them enough to pay for a battleship and make the targets tanky enough to require it. Then you WILL get battleships and other interesting combinations coming in. Some missions now already require a lot of DPS and that's good, but the reward doesn't make it worth bringing in a real ship. "But I want to fight other pvpers" - still could, in fact you'd have more of them, as a bunch of the types that only like juicy targets with lots of loot will be around.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#22 - 2014-10-23 22:55:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
[quote=May Arethusa]

1. Why? Has zero impact upon occupancy (the only reason why farmers were/are an issue), and cuts down on traffic into low-sec because literally nobody will bother running them.


(That's exactly the reason why I proposed such a change, as many pilots join FW for the sole purpose of running FW missions and nothing else. Leaving things as they are would affect the warzone just the same, where this change would make missions such a pain in the rear as to get pvp pilots that are stuck doing missions for riches to actually get back into the plexing war. My problem is with non-combat FW pilots, which a majority are found in stabbed hulls and Stealth Bombers. Thanatos is right that it was much worse before and the changes made to NPC's was a great thing, but it shifted all the plexers, from the idle button spinning, into SB's.)



2. No. There are already methods in place for dissuading farmers from running plexes in a system, and it involves the current timer mechanics. Rollbacks only encourage the use of neutral parties (alts or otherwise) to keep people from running down a plex by repeatedly chasing them out. The timer isn't the issue.

(That is another reason why I wish to implement it exactly. So what? So what if you get chased out? Fight for your plex/LP! And if you can't do it by yourself start a fleet and get 'er done. Perhaps the fleet window will not be so empty for you guys.)


3. Dropping the LP bonuses per tier is a much more efficient way of reducing the attractiveness of FW for making isk. It isn't until a faction reaches T3+ that farmers swarm to cash in. Reducing the payout per plex across all tiers only makes defensive plexing less worthwhile at lower tiers, which is when it is usually needed most.

(I'm trying to pass the most minute nerf to dplexing that I could. The ISK we make is really needed and the LP payout for high tiers only incentivizes pvp with pvp'ers that don't have to worry about ISK. The payout is fine as it is, but dplexing needs a slight nerf and curb stomp. Dual timers gives PVP'ers the satisfaction of LP Denial tactics. Yes, some of us are stubborn enough even NOW to stay through a bloated timer.)

(-Oreb)
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#23 - 2014-10-23 22:59:52 UTC
Estella Osoka wrote:
Just make FW missions be Anomic Agent/Team missions (aka Burner missions). That should eliminate the ability of solo SBs doing FW missions.



No. There are people even now that bring in an alt logi ship to rep them through a burner mission.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#24 - 2014-10-23 23:05:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
Plato Forko wrote:
Master Sergeant MacRobert wrote:
I would just reduce the bonus to LP from FW Tiers and then see how much of an effect that has.

You do not need 150% bonus at Tier 4 for your LP (250% payout it too much).

However, the penalty to LP at Tier 1 is foolish and should be removed.

The payout should be around 100% at 1, 120% at 2, 140% at 3, 165% at 4 and 185% at 5.

You then get a discount on something instead (perhaps a discount on tags required in the LP Store).

Then see how many actually want to jump in and run missions for the "winning" side.


the problem with this idea is it would nuke the incentive to dplex, which becomes a necessary activity at T3-T4 when there are more systems to defend than to attack. it's already virtually impossible to keep up momentum at T4 even with the current payout structure, it's likely that your idea would lead to a permanent stalemate because the incentive to lead a push just wouldn't be strong enough. the current boom-and-bust cycle is not really so bad when you think about how it enables PvP dynamics, levelling the field would just make for a boring status quo.



You have not witnessed the iron will of some of our Gallente pilots. If an auto-donate system were applied to Dplexing, it would help tremendously in sustaining tiers and system control on an offensive push. The difficulty of total warzone control is intrinsic to *the means of that end. Only a concentrated and united push by many bodies makes it possible.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#25 - 2014-10-23 23:33:19 UTC
exiik Shardani wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
I would like others to propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming alts and shift rewards towards pvp pilots.

2) Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when engagement are within the 30km radius. Seeing a half hour Novice can only be equaled in its lameness by an empty militia alt hull defended by a nullsec Garmur main.


bad idea, if it be applied -> results to "some systems never get finished any FW complex" why? because heavy traffic, many neutrals etc. (like Huola, Siseide, Kourm etc heavily defended and traffic system in A/M FW zone).

When rewards from FW get down, many ppl leave FW, because they have not enoughs ISKs for fights... It is much hard hold your sec status up when FW members get so many attacks from neutrals and sometimes do not meet any WT...


I prefer something like "contribution reward/discount" for FW members who actively shoot iHubs, do PvP or contribute to theirs side militias



first paragraph: The comparative systems on our side are probably OMS, Heyd, and Prism. Those ihub fights are the best. What is the problem?


I agree with your last point. Maybe we could cash in WT kills for tags. You have to give up some ideas. I've asked repeatedly that non-FW pilots should be criminally flagged, but WHEN is the debate. When they enter system? When they activate a plex/mission acceleration gate?
Discounts based on rank? That would probably require a reset after a balance pass, as FW missions are far too easy for some factions, generals usually being PVE pilots without a single solo kill.
Larger payout from the bunker bust? Perhaps some calculation based on the number of plex's ran in that system? That would be awesome. You have to throw some more detail into it.
Daerrol
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-10-30 03:46:07 UTC
seriously what's wrong with LP? So farmers farm your system. If you can't handle farmers being in your system you won't handle a proper militia rag tag team anyways. IT's a moot point they are not capping your systems or keeping it capped. As it stands, the high Tier is giving tons of LP Yes but soon (very soon) that's going to kill the market for LP. Amarr LP is falling rapidly in price. Just look at the price on an Omen Navy Issue. Soon enough Minmatar will rally and Amarr will get complacent and we'll see the exact opposite happen.
Luwc
LOGOS Community
Lux Collective
#27 - 2014-10-30 07:48:39 UTC
no

http://hugelolcdn.com/i/267520.gif

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#28 - 2014-10-30 12:00:51 UTC
Daerrol wrote:
seriously what's wrong with LP? So farmers farm your system. If you can't handle farmers being in your system you won't handle a proper militia rag tag team anyways. IT's a moot point they are not capping your systems or keeping it capped. As it stands, the high Tier is giving tons of LP Yes but soon (very soon) that's going to kill the market for LP. Amarr LP is falling rapidly in price. Just look at the price on an Omen Navy Issue. Soon enough Minmatar will rally and Amarr will get complacent and we'll see the exact opposite happen.


::sigh:: The fact that you think tier is a revolving door proves my point. Don't let it hit you on the way out.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#29 - 2014-10-30 16:29:37 UTC
I wish to add, to my short pompous quip, that Enaluri is less than 5% contested. Also, I want to ask you if you seriously believe mission farming has not been the cause of your navy cruisers bottoming out at <50m, or that the cause of the PURPOSEFULLY neglected warzone control swing is not due to pilots that have fattened themselves on so much - TOO much - lp that theyabandon systems so their investments have more value?

Ask a squid when was the last time they saw us in T1.
Princess Bride
SharkNado
#30 - 2014-10-31 02:20:36 UTC
You want to take away my AFs.

No.

Good DAY to you sir.

http://eveprincessbride.wordpress.com/

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#31 - 2014-10-31 04:26:55 UTC
Princess Bride wrote:
You want to take away my AFs.

No.

Good DAY to you sir.


It might indeed spell that for some. It will hurt is all, who are smart enough to crash through some missions in between plexing sessions. If you are honest about it, I think you will see how much it will improve the health and longevity of factional warfare for us, especially and specifically Amarr/Minmatar warzone.
Anja Suorsa
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#32 - 2014-10-31 11:04:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Anja Suorsa
Gaven Lok'ri wrote:
Resetting to neutral timers is a good idea. The rest I don't really see a point for.

If you want to really make it more about PvP the easy answer is to restrict the capturable warzone to the border systems to funnel people into conflict with each-other. If you also set up a supply line concept for the behind lines systems (basically, make it so that you need a chain of systems to friendly high sec or your capturable systems become much easier to take) then you would add a large amount of strategy to the system control game.

I would also really love to see FW missions removed entirely.


It's a nice idea but I don't think it'd work. Assume that in the Gal/Cal warzone the Feds smush the Caldari again back into highsec. They then have an extrememly limited front on which they can engage. Gate camps to harrass them as they try to leave high-sec and assets could be positioned to keep them there. It'd just end up killing the pendulum motion that exists now in favour of stagnating the whole thing.
Andre Vauban
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-10-31 15:54:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Andre Vauban
Oreb Wing wrote:
I would like others to propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming alts and shift rewards towards pvp pilots.

1) Forbid access of all t2/3 hulls from entering FW mission complexes.

2) Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when enagements are within the 30km radius. Seeing a half hour Novice can only be equaled in its lameness by an empty militia alt hull defended by a nullsec Garmur main.

3) Someone smarter than I said this was the formula for the payout of a D-plex: Defensive plex > LP BASE * (%Contested /100 ) * 0.75 Reduce the final computation to .50, add the accumulated enemy timer to a payout completion (when applicable on O and D plexes) and have the system donate the phantom LP that is lost in the balance calculation to the Ihub. This will end the need - the supposed need - of farmers that are seen as the helping hand of the plexing machine when a faction is tier 3 or above and help us maintain higher tiers both in remote systems and at home systems by simply Dplexing. It will also give us a reason to get rid of the spare plexes in home systems, instead of running them to get them off of the overview with little benefit to the most dedicated pilots that try their best to keep a system stable and from bleeding. Not to mention it will save us tons of LP in donations.

4) ::edit::Have the current NPC receive spawns in respect to system level. At lvl 1 no respawn after clearing npc, and five spawns for the fully upgraded V.::edit::


1) Hell no. The system is pretty darn good. The only change that makes reasonable sense is to limit faction/pirate frigs from the novice plexes.

2)I prefer the "auto rollback to neutral mechanism" instead. It is very similar, but it prevents a major problem that your solution doesn't. That being that a farmer can leave the plex and come back later without loosing progress. In this method, whenever nobody is in the plex, the timer starts counting back to the neutral position. This prevents farmers from not loosing progress if they run and also prevents defenders from running the plex to 10 seconds.

3)No. The "winning" side needs to burn out when they win. They cannot be allowed to easily keep a high tier and keep their boot on the other sides head. If this was implemented, it would be far to easy to maintain a high tier.

4) Let's see how the new version pans out first. This will swing things back to the farmers. I think it is to early to make a call on this one.

.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#34 - 2014-10-31 16:29:52 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
The only problem with FW is that Caldari don't think they can win (rightly or wrongly). Because of that, they aren't putting in the effort to try to win - and that leads to warzone stagnation. For our part, we have more than enough territory to accomplish what we want, and expending energy to defend more of it just doesn't make sense.

I think this current state of affairs is called "peacetime" in the real world. Big smile
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#35 - 2014-10-31 17:02:36 UTC
Andre Vauban wrote:
Oreb Wing wrote:
I would like others to propose feedback as well on how to best curb the LP farming alts and shift rewards towards pvp pilots.

1) Forbid access of all t2/3 hulls from entering FW mission complexes.

2) Dual timers that tick back when idle. One for the offensive side and another for the defensive side, both frozen as the single one does now when enagements are within the 30km radius. Seeing a half hour Novice can only be equaled in its lameness by an empty militia alt hull defended by a nullsec Garmur main.

3) Someone smarter than I said this was the formula for the payout of a D-plex: Defensive plex > LP BASE * (%Contested /100 ) * 0.75 Reduce the final computation to .50, add the accumulated enemy timer to a payout completion (when applicable on O and D plexes) and have the system donate the phantom LP that is lost in the balance calculation to the Ihub. This will end the need - the supposed need - of farmers that are seen as the helping hand of the plexing machine when a faction is tier 3 or above and help us maintain higher tiers both in remote systems and at home systems by simply Dplexing. It will also give us a reason to get rid of the spare plexes in home systems, instead of running them to get them off of the overview with little benefit to the most dedicated pilots that try their best to keep a system stable and from bleeding. Not to mention it will save us tons of LP in donations.

4) ::edit::Have the current NPC receive spawns in respect to system level. At lvl 1 no respawn after clearing npc, and five spawns for the fully upgraded V.::edit::


1) Hell no. The system is pretty darn good. The only change that makes reasonable sense is to limit faction/pirate frigs from the novice plexes.

2)I prefer the "auto rollback to neutral mechanism" instead. It is very similar, but it prevents a major problem that your solution doesn't. That being that a farmer can leave the plex and come back later without loosing progress. In this method, whenever nobody is in the plex, the timer starts counting back to the neutral position. This prevents farmers from not loosing progress if they run and also prevents defenders from running the plex to 10 seconds.

3)No. The "winning" side needs to burn out when they win. They cannot be allowed to easily keep a high tier and keep their boot on the other sides head. If this was implemented, it would be far to easy to maintain a high tier.

4) Let's see how the new version pans out first. This will swing things back to the farmers. I think it is to early to make a call on this one.



1)Are you joking? The Slicer, Comet, Hookbill and Firetail would be so worthless to us. Besides, let the pirate frigs have their day. Nerf incoming for sure on some.

2)That was suggested there where I said "tick back".

3)I doubt it. O-plexing will ALWAYS net attackers more lp and that means more systems available to do it in. This change would reduce dplex lp marginally and give people a reason to further deplex for the war effort and not just for LP.

4) 6 spawns on a small is ********.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#36 - 2014-10-31 18:09:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
I like the current system.

Ship restrictions are ok and after all, its the same for everyone.

Timer rollbacks are kind of academic since evasion farming, while still there in novices is far less of a problem. Im not against rollbacks, just the problem they fix is a fraction of what it was.

A better solution to d-plexing is a friendly and hostile rat in ALL plexes. These rats ignore the player while the player shoots the hostile to start the timer. Rat tanks may need a tweak to stop gank or even stabbed cats running larges as they do now. D- plexing LP rewards might have to be looked at in order to prevent rapid swings of the warzone.

Current NPC spawn rate is unarguably one of the two things standing between us and a willing horde of farming alts. NPC tank being the other. Changing that would be a major step backwards.

The current environment enables people to influence occupancy relative to the effectiveness of their ship and fit choice and their numbers (with a few edge cases that are hard to address). Peoples PvP is largely unaffected by the presence of rats. Farming is at low levels. I really dont see the problem outside the ease of d-plexing. Something i will happily take advantage of until they fix it :)
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#37 - 2014-10-31 19:11:26 UTC
[quote=Crosi Wesdo]

What is your opinion on the missions? If the restriction change came in,drastic swings in tier control would fall massively without high LP donation made possible with mission farming LP.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#38 - 2014-10-31 19:22:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Oreb Wing wrote:
[quote=Crosi Wesdo]

What is your opinion on the missions? If the restriction change came in,drastic swings in tier control would fall massively without high LP donation made possible with mission farming LP.



Without trying to sound like an ass, but i haven seen any drastic control shifts in a while. And even if there was one i wouldnt mind as long as it was driven by players putting effort in. Maybe someone from amarr can comment if their rise is player effort driven or if its just unopposed farming, or even that minmatar are not looking for fights in high contested systems, or even if minmatar are actively defending but are being beaten back?

We will see what impact amarr farmers have on our warzone too, thats really the one thing im looking at with curiosity, since im not against diagonal plexing.
X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#39 - 2014-10-31 19:24:15 UTC
For one, there is no ship in existence that can stand up to a L4 Caldari rats in missions. Maybe a Drake or some other cowardly Caldari hull with T1 resist bonuses....

This means you need dedicated logi, which means you need TWO dedicated logi which makes a mininum of 3 players per L4 mission. I know back in the day guys could do them in pairs of Sentry Domis, but they only used them when you could turn down infinite numbers of missions and only accept the ones where your domi was already parked. Have fun warping around the warzone in your new mission fit Dominix...


Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#40 - 2014-10-31 20:45:16 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
For one, there is no ship in existence that can stand up to a L4 Caldari rats in missions. Maybe a Drake or some other cowardly Caldari hull with T1 resist bonuses....

This means you need dedicated logi, which means you need TWO dedicated logi which makes a mininum of 3 players per L4 mission. I know back in the day guys could do them in pairs of Sentry Domis, but they only used them when you could turn down infinite numbers of missions and only accept the ones where your domi was already parked. Have fun warping around the warzone in your new mission fit Dominix...




Aye, the ECM from the mission rats is pretty exaggerated, but a few very expensive ships can do them for Gallente. The dual rep Proteus with super high sensor str (which still gets jammed but can sit through a miss); an Ishtar with sentries, as your drones will still do dmg while jammed, and a navy Vexor, same sentry method with two DLA's, tank and AAR, two Kinetic Membrane II's (due to tight CPU) a sebo for targeting where you land and before jamms get applied. The latter two with a mwd and cloaks can make it around semi safely, the Proteus is the safest. A pain in the ass for sure, but possible.