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Cloak Fuel - A cure to afk cloaking
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#121 - 2011-12-12 13:58:32 UTC
Wormerling wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Activating a cloak disconnects you from the local channel.
It should be added that the person who uses cloak should remain visible for others in local
No, it should not be added, because then we'd still have the same problem (and he wouldn't be disconnected from local). If he still showed up, AFK cloaking would remain, the whole exercise would be pointless.

So no, per IA's suggestion: activating a cloak disconnects you from local — you cannot use it to detect others and others cannot use it to detect you. Turning the cloak off means you connects back to local, and thus instantly are seen by everyone and can see everyone.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#122 - 2011-12-12 14:04:38 UTC
Ah, here we go... time to necro this one:
The Ultimate Guide to Life, the Universe and Cloaking.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
#123 - 2011-12-12 15:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Jint Hikaru
Ok, I have pretty much read this thread again (yes, after saying I didnt read the OP on maye 3 or something).

What it looks like to me is this,

The OP (and other posters) need to decide what they actually want....

1. are you looking to stop people being AFK, but are happy having someone in 'your' system who is cloaked but at the computer?

2. are you wanting to remove cloaks so that you can be safe in 'your' 0.0 system, without having anyone cloaking around you.

It seems to me that Tippia has proposed an elegant solutiuon, but people who are pretending to want point 1, but really want point 2 are saying anything they can to oppose her idea.


I have seen too many, "its our system, why should someone be able to come in and stop me carebearing in it"

Jint Hikaru - Miner / Salvager / Explorer / SpaceBum In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move.
Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2011-12-12 17:30:35 UTC
I am in favor of a specialty POS module that can only be put online at sov level 4 or something like that.

It has the ability to pinpoint the location, name and shiptype of any ship in the system that is in space, if that ship has been in space in that system for over 12 hours, regardless of whether the ship is cloaked or not. It can also track movement of ships tht are in space in the system that have been there in space for over 12 hours.

What this does is it gives the sov holder a defensive advantage. You can cloak in system for up to 12 hours but then you must leave. You can enter and leave the system as many times as you like, each time the timer resets, but now the afk cloaker has to risk something. He has to pass through a gate periodically or he will be tracked and caught. 0.0 as an afk cloaker is not safe for him, as it is currently.

Also it would not be safe for someone in a fast dram at 6k per second either, as the module would allow sov holders to warp in right on him regardless of speed.

The basic idea? Sitting AFK cloaked isn't playing the game. Attacking people, invading, hotdropping, roaming, all that requires that you actually be playing the game. Bring it on. It also involves risk. Sitting AFK cloaked in a system is without risk and should not be allowed.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#125 - 2011-12-12 17:43:34 UTC
Inmei T'ko wrote:
I am in favor of a specialty POS module that can only be put online at sov level 4 or something like that.

It has the ability to pinpoint the location, name and shiptype of any ship in the system that is in space, if that ship has been in space in that system for over 12 hours, regardless of whether the ship is cloaked or not. It can also track movement of ships tht are in space in the system that have been there in space for over 12 hours.

What this does is it gives the sov holder a defensive advantage. You can cloak in system for up to 12 hours but then you must leave. You can enter and leave the system as many times as you like, each time the timer resets, but now the afk cloaker has to risk something. He has to pass through a gate periodically or he will be tracked and caught. 0.0 as an afk cloaker is not safe for him, as it is currently.

Also it would not be safe for someone in a fast dram at 6k per second either, as the module would allow sov holders to warp in right on him regardless of speed.
The basic idea? Sitting AFK cloaked isn't playing the game. Attacking people, invading, hotdropping, roaming, all that requires that you actually be playing the game. Bring it on. It also involves risk. Sitting AFK cloaked in a system is without risk and should not be allowed.


Why do you actually think these are good ideas? What are you so afraid of in null sec that you want to turn it into your own little Hello Kitty flower garden?

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#126 - 2011-12-12 18:16:18 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Why do you actually think these are good ideas? What are you so afraid of in null sec that you want to turn it into your own little Hello Kitty flower garden?


You want to come and fight? Come and fight. Invade. Use your supposedly superior skills, get a fleet together, attack. Don't not play the game by sitting AFK cloaked for weeks on end. That is your version of hello kitty and it sucks. Think of something better. Play the game.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#127 - 2011-12-12 18:21:39 UTC
Inmei T'ko wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Why do you actually think these are good ideas? What are you so afraid of in null sec that you want to turn it into your own little Hello Kitty flower garden?


You want to come and fight? Come and fight. Invade. Use your supposedly superior skills, get a fleet together, attack. Don't not play the game by sitting AFK cloaked for weeks on end. That is your version of hello kitty and it sucks. Think of something better. Play the game.


So you're admitting the problem is that you can see the cloaked person in local then... that you know he's there and that's the scary part?

Heh... you are so not ready for wormholes. That's the difference I guess between wormhole dwellers and your type... you all are always screaming to have the things that scare you nerfed, but we lose free intel (wormhole jump stats) and most wormhole folks are like "Meh, whatever, we'll adapt."

There's no reason to break cloak and the many perfectly viable and efficient tactics that come with it simply because you're weak.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2011-12-12 18:28:56 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:

So you're admitting the problem is that you can see the cloaked person in local then... that you know he's there and that's the scary part?

Heh... you are so not ready for wormholes. That's the difference I guess between wormhole dwellers and your type... you all are always screaming to have the things that scare you nerfed, but we lose free intel (wormhole jump stats) and most wormhole folks are like "Meh, whatever, we'll adapt."

There's no reason to break cloak and the many perfectly viable and efficient tactics that come with it simply because you're weak.


I lived in a WH for a year when WHs were first launched. You are completely missing the point.

PvPers love saying that "EVE is not safe - you are never safe - you should never be safe blah blah blah" an AFK cloaker is Completely, and Utterly, safe. He can sit there forever and there is nothing anyone can do about him. He isn't playing the game he is out doing something else yet his presence impacts others' enjoyment of the game. This should not be allowed. Plain, simple, End of story.

Come up with another tactic. Don't be lazy. You want somone out of an area of space, kick them out. Play the game! if you can...
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#129 - 2011-12-12 21:06:05 UTC
Inmei T'ko wrote:
Ingvar Angst wrote:

So you're admitting the problem is that you can see the cloaked person in local then... that you know he's there and that's the scary part?

Heh... you are so not ready for wormholes. That's the difference I guess between wormhole dwellers and your type... you all are always screaming to have the things that scare you nerfed, but we lose free intel (wormhole jump stats) and most wormhole folks are like "Meh, whatever, we'll adapt."

There's no reason to break cloak and the many perfectly viable and efficient tactics that come with it simply because you're weak.


I lived in a WH for a year when WHs were first launched. You are completely missing the point.

PvPers love saying that "EVE is not safe - you are never safe - you should never be safe blah blah blah" an AFK cloaker is Completely, and Utterly, safe. He can sit there forever and there is nothing anyone can do about him. He isn't playing the game he is out doing something else yet his presence impacts others' enjoyment of the game. This should not be allowed. Plain, simple, End of story.

Come up with another tactic. Don't be lazy. You want somone out of an area of space, kick them out. Play the game! if you can...


There are no afk cloakers in wormholes first of all. They only exist where local exists.

The afk cloaker is also harmless and actually gives you the advantage. You know he's there, you have the ability to prepare for his presence and any possible attack. Bring a friend or three and there's pretty much little to nothing you'll need to fear for when he's no longer afk.

While he's afk... he's not there.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#130 - 2011-12-12 21:54:17 UTC
Hypnagogia Ichinumi wrote:
I'm gonna start off by saying I didn't read any of this thread past the first sentence of the OP.

The problem is not that a single cloaker "can shut down an entire alliances PVE for as long as they wish." The problem is people being afraid to play a game based on risk when there is even a slight hint of danger.

Seriously, man up. There is an AFK cloaker in system. You know what that AFK means? It means more likely than not, that person is not at their computer. And if they are, they're pretending not to be so you think they are AFK.

If you're in null, where this is apparently a problem, you should be used to the idea of constant danger. Go about your business and be aware that you could be jumped at any time. Check Dscan for decloaks. Watch overview for an enemy on grid. Stay aligned. Its not hard.

Sure, once in a while you'll get ganked and lose that ship - but if you're doing your ratting or whatever while that person actually is AFK, you should be making more than you lose. Eve is a game of loss. If you don't want to lose anything, don't play.

Exactly. This is one of the few times where I've been in agreement with TEST guys.

You can ask any WHer, the biggest thing is weighing your risk vs. reward; we deal with this all the time. Ratting in null sec, do you really need to be using your 3 bil isk mach to rat? I dunno.
Nikollai Tesla
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#131 - 2011-12-12 22:24:55 UTC
GuRasta wrote:
AFK cloaking has become one of the key issues with EVE, 1 person can shut down an entire alliances PVE for as long as they wish.


1 person can shut down an Allaince, as long as an Allaince is willing be to shutdown by 1 person


GuRasta wrote:
Faction battleships people have worked hard on sit in hanger and don't get used, and how many do you think log on to play, notice and afk cloaker and no pvp ops atm and just change skills and log off instead of actually playing the game?


There are many different ships types in Eve, from faction, to tech 2, tech1. You need to find the right balance, sounds like the risk, reward for using a faction BS is not there.

GuRasta wrote:
I know many including me that do it all the time. Sure, you can try to trap, until you get hotdropped by 20-40, it is normal protocol for almost EVERY nullsec alliance to just not rat with a cloak in system afk or not.


Sounds like the playstyle you are looking for is located in highsec, or you need to stop flying things worth getting hotdropped.


Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#132 - 2011-12-13 01:32:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Inmei T'ko
Ingvar Angst wrote:
There are no afk cloakers in wormholes first of all. They only exist where local exists.

The afk cloaker is also harmless and actually gives you the advantage. You know he's there, you have the ability to prepare for his presence and any possible attack. Bring a friend or three and there's pretty much little to nothing you'll need to fear for when he's no longer afk.

While he's afk... he's not there.


Utter bullsh1te.

AFk cloakers shut down entire systems productivity. There is this thing, it's called a hotdrop. Specifically, in cynojammed nullsec, the black ops hotdrop. Alternatively, once you have been scanned down, there's the giant red blob rolling in from the nearby lowsec to gank you. Pretty much every alliance out there bans ratting or any activity in a system that has an AFk cloaker. You will be kicked for losing a ship to said AFk cloaker, when he scans you down while cloaked with dscan and brings in his friends.

You have the advantage? Clearly you need to go back to your WH, you have never lived in 0.0. Nothing to fear when he is no longer afk if you have a few friends? The game mechanics have been set up such that the best systems are few and far between, so to make the best amount of isk, everyone has to gather in one system. Upgrades are prohibitively expensive. people can't afford to upgrade any system at random. So you have spent a huge amount of isk for fuel and POSes and upgrades, you risk expensive ships in order to live in 0.0 and have an end game, and 1 person who is not even there can screw all that up not only for you but your entire alliance.

You can sit here and spew your bullsh1te till the cows come home, the fact is the status quo sucks and EVE is dying. 0.0 has become largely an exercise in frustration. When a game is no longer fun people stop playing it. You can be an "expert" in an extinct game! Very nice for you.
LeHarfang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#133 - 2011-12-13 01:36:41 UTC
Since Eve online is supposed to be a sandbox game, it,s all about choices and their concequences. Null sec owners and w-space dwellers should be able to have an anti-covert op ship. I mean, it is true that when there is a cloak nearby, you can't do anything against him and it is annoying. When you own a system, you should be able to defend it accordingly against everything.

Of course, it must not break the use of spying ships so it would have to be balanced, like i already said.

Simply having them disconnect from local does'nt stop them from spying on you at a distance (warp at 100km near ennemy or neut structure). They're still able to do their spying and scouting work and you cant do anything about it.
SGT FUNYOUN
Elysian Space Navy - 1st Fleet
#134 - 2011-12-13 01:57:30 UTC
Ok I have said this before, and I will say it again.

Cloaking devices are DESIGNED to make your ship COMPLETELY INVISIBLE. To ALL forms of detection. If they didn't then they would not be cloaking devices; they would be camoflauging devices.

The cloaking device has been an integral part of Sci-Fi since the days of Issac Asimov. They were DESIGNED to make a ship SEEM invincible. They are specifically in the game to MAKE IT so that you have to think twice about what tactics you are using. So instead of griping the same gripe THOUSANDS of other misinformed players who; just like you; REFUSE to read the "COMMONLY PROPOSED IDEAS" thread; how about you learn how to play better and try using some new tactics.

Or you can just keep letting me and the rest of us cloakers blow you to kingdom come... your choice.

This is Sci-Fi, not WOW where you can have it your way like Burger king. You can't just change an entire extremely succesful game mechanic by whining to the GM's about some thing you are too weak minded to do something about.

The Cloak has been a part of Sci-Fi and mythology since the days of Issac Asimov and King Arthur... This is Sci-Fi...

Now STOP F***ING WITH MY SCI-FI D*** IT!!!
SGT FUNYOUN
Elysian Space Navy - 1st Fleet
#135 - 2011-12-13 02:03:11 UTC
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#136 - 2011-12-13 02:08:02 UTC
Inmei T'ko wrote:
AFk cloakers shut down entire systems productivity. There is this thing, it's called a hotdrop. Specifically, in cynojammed nullsec, the black ops hotdrop.
…which has nothing to do with AFK cloaking. If you're having problems with hotdrops, then maybe the thing that needs fixing is… you know… hotdrops.

AFK cloakers do absolutely nothing. They do not shut down anything. The whole problem lies with the system inhabitants picking up stuff in local that they shouldn't be aware of.
Quote:
Pretty much every alliance out there bans ratting or any activity in a system that has an AFk cloaker. You will be kicked for losing a ship to said AFk cloaker, when he scans you down while cloaked with dscan and brings in his friends.
In other words, it's not the AFK cloaker who shuts down the system. And if you manage to die to someone who's AFK, then they're probably right in kicking you from the corp…
Quote:
the fact is the status quo sucks and EVE is dying.
No, that is not a fact.
SGT FUNYOUN
Elysian Space Navy - 1st Fleet
#137 - 2011-12-13 02:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: SGT FUNYOUN
Inmei T'ko wrote:
[Pretty much every alliance out there bans ratting or any activity in a system that has an AFk cloaker. You will be kicked for losing a ship to said AFk cloaker, when he scans you down while cloaked with dscan and brings in his friends.

...the fact is the status quo sucks and EVE is dying. 0.0 has become largely an exercise in frustration. When a game is no longer fun people stop playing it. You can be an "expert" in an extinct game! Very nice for you.



Ok first off... "pretty much every alliance"...

I was not aware this thread was started by a GM... you must work for CCP since you know soooo well how "every" alliance in EVE operates.

Oh you DON'T work for CCP? Then perhaps you need to stop playing with those WOW rejects in your weak a** "alliance" and find some mature players who don't go around busting your ba*** just because you lost a ship YOU payed for. That is know as...

... a BAD ALLIANCE.

Only BAD alliances and Corps kick players out for losing a ship. unless that ship is absolutely integral to the success of the entire mission, or it is owned by the corp; and even then they are still a bad corp because they were stupid enough to put all there hopes on one ship in LOW/NULL/WORM HOLE Security Space. That is the very definition of stupid.

Secondly, AFK means... AWAY FROM KEYBOARD!!! It means that there are NO input commands from the player flying said cloak ship. He/she is AFK means he/she CANNOT TOUCH YOU and therefore if you lose your ship to an AFK CLOAKER...

...perhaps you SHOULD rage quit because obviously you do not understand how TO FLY YOUR SHIP. AT ALL. If an AFK cloaker kills you; then you weren't paying attention.

Yes when a game stops being fun then people stop playing. If you don't like it, then you can always rage quit, pack up your anti-bacterial tighty whities, and go back to being an immature whiny cry baby and go play WOW once more.

So yes it can be frustrating to lose a ship. Guess what...

Space... OUTER SPACE...

Is cold; dark; and lonely. This game is as close to that as possible. If you lose your ship. It is YOUR fault. YOU screwed up. YOU were NOT paying attention. YOU are the ONLY one to blame.

Now I am going to say it again.

STOP F***ING WITH MY SCI-FI D*** IT!!!
Inmei T'ko
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#138 - 2011-12-13 03:17:01 UTC
Yes, pretty much every alliance. It's not a secret. You disobey their nullsec rules about avoiding losses, and you get kicked out. Simple. Not rocket science, even a loud, obnxious, idiot cap-typer like yourself should be able to figure that out.

AFK cloakers do just that - they sit AFk for hours. They may be playing the game on another client and occasionally hitting dscan on the other screen. They may be actually afk. They may be active. in any event, they are:

1. Totally safe as awesome Sci-Fi invincible cloaked people. Wow I am so sorry for messing with your scifi dreams by the way! You suck ass.

2. You should not ever be totally safe in EVE. The cloak makes you safe and allows you to disrupt operations in a system whether or not you are actively playing the game and this is the whole problem. It's not good for people to be safe in empire, but hypocritically, it's totally cool for a cloaker to sit there perfectly safe in nullsec? Bullsh1te.

3. The entire idea of this tactic is to cause disruptions in productivity by simply being there. We all get that. Combine it with a black ops or standard cyno however and you have a tactic that is basically impossible to counter. pvE fits cannot fight PvP fits we all know that. by the same token PvP fits can't survive PvE engagements. So the sov holder is always at a disadvantage. Always. This sucks. And it is not fun. It makes all the hard work and effort of bothering with 0.0 sov a waste of time and ultimately futile. knowing how to fly my ship or not has absolutely nothing to do with it, you miserable vomitous mass. It is game mechanics. Broken game mechanics.

4. Because the person carrying out this tactic has no risk, or very limited risk, versus the standard ratter's extremely high risk (1 billion isk PvE fit for instance) the tactic is not balanced. you know, balance? that thing that makes a game challenging interesting and fun to play? Awwww, you wanted to keep on ganking people with no recourse with your lazy ass tactic? Cry to your mommy when they either change it or when EVE folds because people get tired of this futile foolishness and go to another game.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#139 - 2011-12-13 04:39:22 UTC
Inmei T'ko wrote:
Yes, pretty much every alliance. It's not a secret. You disobey their nullsec rules about avoiding losses, and you get kicked out. Simple. Not rocket science, even a loud, obnxious, idiot cap-typer like yourself should be able to figure that out.

AFK cloakers do just that - they sit AFk for hours. They may be playing the game on another client and occasionally hitting dscan on the other screen.


FYI... You called this person AFK. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.
Ekrund
BREACH INC.
#140 - 2011-12-13 05:28:22 UTC
Sir Lokit wrote:
So let me get this straight. For people who dont agree. They say that 0.0 space isnt suppose to be safe. I dont think anyone ever argued that. No one is requesting for no pvp. Unless of course you guys are thinking something else? But out of the people that said that they disagreed, other than the post of "Its not suppose to be safe" No opinions were posted.

First and foremost. I feel if you dont agree with someone you should say WHY. Not just say, "Nope."

In my opinion, if someone is AFK cloaked. There is no problem. They're AFK. Local defence fleets and proper intel are a great way to keep yourself protected. Anyway, as I've said in other threads on this topic, don't let your paranoia ruin your Eve experience. Use a bit of intel to work out their active times. Not 100% full proof, but neither is undocking and expecting to stay alive.