Wormholes

It's funny that you think you know me. I moved into a c5/c4 with a corp that a 5 person fleet was a really active day. And with a 2 bil static you can bet I took part in rolling almost every time we rolled.

No, orcas aren't cheap. But seeing how you can close your static in about 15 seconds, its probably worth the cost

Removed some trolling, disrespectful comments, and personal attacks. Please adhere to the forum rules, otherwise you risk your forum posting privileges. Thanks.

It comes down to Isk Vs. Risk. If you're not running capital escalations, the general hassle of wormhole living and the lack of local makes the isk fairly bad compared to Incursions or whatever.

Perhaps in how people operate in wormhole space currently but I don't think this is true universally. There are mountains of ISK sitting in w-space. I see it every day as I move around chains. Combat sites, datas, relics, all sitting fallow with no one running them. Groups only considering their home anoms or those in their immediate static perhaps are left without enough content depending on the group size. But if a group is truly that large, they should be more than equipped to raid holes all up and down the chain for PvE. A dirty thought, yes I know but...

It's interesting to me that as PvP'ers, groups spend significant time looking for PvE pilots to attack. Yet it almost seems that if PvP groups took to mass PvE in PvP capable ships (see TXGsycn's recent blog posts on how relatively easy this is especially in C3 space) that they'd probably attract other PvP groups and get the fights they're looking for. And if not, they've padded their wallet all along the way.

I guess maybe that's a pipe dream that PvE and PvP in w-space wouldn't be mutually exclusive and at odds with each other but how attractive would that be to both types of players if a corp went ranging across w-space, crushing sleepers, collecting ISK, and taking on anyone who dared confront them?

The efficiency experts will decry it isn't the most ISK/hr activity but aren't so many of us extolling the fun quotient to our play?

u shouldnt say "we eat bears for lunch", not so long time ago, BU n QEX were eating bears for the breakfast, lunch, dinner and lots of times, we being very hungry smashed few frigos even at night. Bears didnt like this. bears whined to CCP and they "fixed" wspace> removed around 30-40% of residents (no i dont have numbers, just my friendlist says this)... so plz, be carefull when u talk about bears, unless u want to have only high sec exits

I used to live there and hardly got to do anything, the alliance/corp i was in was killboard nazi and didnt want anyone doing anything in the worm hole unless eyes were on every wh in and out. Other then mining which i couldnt do with out having multiple alts was sleeper hunting which they did in dreadnoughts and a couple of carriers and still did not happen until all wh eyes were covered. lastly they were arrogent, spouting off their mouthes and quickly panicked when a merc corp strated bringing in caps to kill them, and they could wage a proper war logging in to do nothing when they wanted to kick a corp out of another wormhole, bashed 2 unarmed towers while the merc corp and the corp they were attacking showed force and then my corp ceo and all tucked tail.

I think you have got it all wrong here because you don't think past proximal evidence and look at systematics.

Yes, there's "mountains" of ISK in wormholes. I assume you are considering a bunch of towers in an occupied system as constituting these alleged "mountains"or the fact people have hangars stocked with T3's. However, if you look at the regularity with which people lose ships and the length of time some people have played the game, you can disabuse yourself of this notion pretty damn quickly.

My corp's POS, which I paid for personally, costs about 900M ISK all up, and that's including faction webs (looted), the stick itself (again, looted) and the damps. This represents, to me, nothing more than random accumulation of crud via time spent in game. it is less than the shiny modules on my highsec pimp chariot Nightmare.

There are 30 toons in corp. If the corp wished to club together to buy the POS, we could all rat for <1 hour and it would be done. And that's cut to 20 minutes of incursions.

If you consider than EVE players devote tens or hundreds or even thousands of hours to gaming, and to some extent this is ratting, then yes you accumulate wealth. There's just as much wealth in nulllsec as w-space, per toon, you just can't see it because most of it is docked inside a station and all the POSs are owned by the alliances annd exist solely to provide refuge for cowards, JB's, cyno gens, or moon goo humping.

If you are a rational, intelligent, mid-30's geek who isn't a complete dinkus brain, you act on analytical drivers and can swiftly work out that, if ISK supply drives you, C4's are not the best place to be. The ISK rate in wormholes is capped very, very low and your only response is to roll statics and farm, move to where ISK supply is rate-based and defined by your personal time invested, not an artificial cap derived from CCP's random number generator and how they constructed wormholes.

The problem here, and the point of mine which you missed, is not about ISK/hr. it's about ISK/day per wormhole. To repeat myself, ad nauseum, if for example a C4 site is worth 80M ISK and you get 2 per day your hole generates 160M ISK per day. Full stop. Every month, therefore, a C4 is worth 4.8 billion ISK, plus PI. That is nigh on 5 toons worth of PLEX, or 2.5 meatbods of residents assuming your income goes towards PLEX.

Therefore, for group sizes above 5, any C4 wormhole is unsustainable (plus or minus PI, but assume 300M a month you push it out to 10 residents). Minus expenses (fuel, ships).

True, people can farm their statics, but this becomes an equation of the total pool of C4 wormholes. Given 550 C4's and 2.5 stable residents per wormhole, C4's can (plus or minus PI, mining, gassing, data and relic income) support a total of 1375 accounts via PLEX. That's your hard upper limit, without the residents being on subscription. So assume another 1375 subbed accounts and you have a population of 5 toons per wormhole.


To further elaborate - if you clean your home hole, you get nothing more no matter how much effort you put in, so you log or leave (or, if a PVPer, hunt). in k-space, you can bang out missions day in and day out at a ISK/hr rate, etc. Every hour you devote to gaming rewards you. Not so in w-space. Very swftly, every hour you play begins making you nothing. So people leave.

Second point, you are clearly pained in the buttocks about losing PVE ships in wormhole space. Yes, i checked you on zkilllboard. Your accusation that PVP pilots spend time looking for PVE pilots to attack is erroneous, a falsity based on your own experiences. Personally, as Marlona Sky's fat goateed w-space cousin, I spend an inordinate amount of time trying to get PVP pilots to attack my Nereus, and every so often it works.

I also spend inordinate amounts of time trying to find PVE characters with buds, to tackle and troll out the buds. Often this is done via tackling T3's in my Nereus, hotdrop style. Or tackling hulks in my Nereus. Or anything, really. I attack PVE ships in my hauler to get them to fight back.

Then, of course, my mates jump in and shoot the foes. It's called a Nereus And Switch. And it works.

In an ideal Obil Que world of space honour and fairies, we would roll around throwing down gauntlets upon entering system, declaiming "Sudden Buggery is in you. Or at least your wormhole. We are a gang f six, consisting of 2 x cloaky proteus (fit in Local), 1 x web Loki (fit in local), 1 x Execquror (fit in local), 2 x Astero (fit in Local). As you can see we have a warp disruptor on every ship! Hie thee to a PVP ship or pay a lameness tax and we shall leave, for we are NRDS and do not attack yon PVE boats, for we are honourable w-space knights and not at all lame. What say, ye, cowering bears?"

And the cowering bears would be all like "Sorry, TF, we will just sit here in our POS and play World of Tanks instead. But thanks for the offer. here is 50M per toon for the time you have wasted rage rolling into us.. Tootles!"

Pffft.

Part of the point is "why are subscriptions and log ins down?"

As a leader in one of the larger corps out there I will tell you that the success of your corp in w-space does not fall down to the activity levels of other corps in w-space. It does impact the provision of content to a degree but will not define you as a success of a failure in w-space.

The content is out there, you just have to find it! Yes Lazerhawks is a PVP focused entity living in w-space but above all we are out there to provide content to our members and keep it fun for everyone, whether that means we roam out null, go push someone else’s castle over for whatever reason, we do it because overall it is a game and we want good content for our members.

W-space has defeated many corps & alliances but normally all pertain to internal issues. KILL alliance for instance suffered from command issues (can't wait for g0hme to find this post and post up some BS) that I tried addressing but all fell on deaf ears, resulting in the active member base moving corps, something fresh, something active, with an understanding that if you don't provide content for your members w-space will be dead, but only for your members.

What I mean by that is that w-space has lots of content out there. For me most nights it means logging in to our AU TZ and running some sites, scanning chains, doing production, but doing it actively with the other 10-15 members we have online at the time. Is there PVP all the time? No there isn't. Has it always been that way? Yes it has, ever since wormholes were introduced.

Big doughnut? I laugh at that when I see those kinds of comments.

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=25571398

or

http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_related&kll_id=24484287

We're simply good mates that shoot each other in a spaceship game, providing each other with content in w-space, pretty simple really.

Wormholes are not dead, however there may be a bit of stagnation at the moment but that's only because some of the larger corps that have leadership that are either not promoting or not even providing content generation in some way for their members. We saw this revealed recently when ADHC being mostly away from game, unable to field fleets etc, get their castle smashed over by SSC. It was content for both corps, and I think I can say very fun for both sides.

There is also a second reason in that some smaller corps either don’t have the right motivation towards w-space, or are continually trying to hit above their weight without success.

To the smaller corps out there that want to get in to wormhole space or are already in but struggling, I suggest you first review what players you have and how many. Realistically look at getting a wormhole for the size of your corp, or even a lower class wormhole making less ISK but being more manageable is going to be better for your members if they’re having more fun. When I started out in OMFG we settled in a C2 with a HS/C3 static. You can operate in something like this quite easily, make a little bit of ISK. Get used to wormhole life, recruit, grow, or merge with a bigger corp when you want to move up. Even a C2 w HS/C4 works, easy access to kspace, you can farm your static and explore up the chain via the C4 static.

So in the end, what does it come down to? People! If you know people in w-space, you will do well. People and PVP is deeply integrated in w-space, and deeply integrated in what makes this game popular. Generally we've found smaller entities that are ballsier than some of the larger stagnated bittervet corps/alliances in w-space seem to have more fun, and grow to be a much better corp in EVE/w-space. From that they get my respect, help and in a lot of cases they get some sort of protection from that respect. It’s almost like they have a bit of a right to stay in w-space because they're helping provide content to other corps and their members.

But for some however they’re only in it for the numbers. They see PVP in w-space as an inconvenience and a hindrance when trying to meet their ISK targets. This I can tell you for sure is the wrong motive to be in w-space and even so in EVE as a whole. Please for the love of all that is holy change your thinking because this if you do think this because you are part of the stagnation of w-space. This example can apply to some larger entities that end up hording w-space members with this focus on non-PVP; mark my words, your stay in w-space will come to an end. Someone will come and push your sand castle over and you will lose it all.

In the end, EVE is a people game, a social experiment in a way. It’s about relationships, trust, loyalty, socialisation. And w-space only magnifies these aspects of the game.

Sorry for the textwall.
/end rant

Don't you think that maybe putting some extra minerals or even ice in to the lower populated catagories of wormholes would work too? This obsession with ganking can only be fueled by having things to gank.