Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Actually, Greyscale has been in favor of nerfing movement for a LOOONG time.

So try again.

I agree with the OP, in that there should not be a ban on discussing certain elements of gameplay unless it's exploits.

Sure, the cloaking discussions have been done to death, and CCP/community has their opinion on it, I even share that opinion for the most part. I don't like the censorship none the less.

What if, just what if someone pulls a rabbit out of the hat and comes up with an idea that actually does make sense in regards to cloak changes. That thread would be immediately locked. That's no good.

Well....does anyone on the anti-cloak side have the balls to even attempt to answer this question?

Guess not.

That's great, but your suggestion is:

1. Probably not balanced.
2. Has been discussed at length before, see Nikk Narrel in this thread, he has 2 threads on this very same topic and dozens if not hundreds of posts.
3. ALL of the renter/ratters (i.e. people in null only to rat) absolutely HATE it.

Its been done to death. So what will happen is, if CCP decides to touch this issue, they'll most likely due their own thing. They'll go down 1 of 2 paths:

1. Pissing off the PvP piolots.
2. Pissing off the ratters.

Hopefully they'll go with the latter, and given the jump drive nerfs, it is probably the most reasonable, but you will never ever convince a dedicated ratter of this. Ever. They'll whine, cry, *****, tell us CCP is going to kill the game (like cloaks are killing the game...must be a very slow death process) and threaten to quit (good riddance to players with such a mentality, IMO, although I do admit the loss of revenue is not a good thing).

For the dedicated ratter/renter there is no middle ground. None. I know, I've argued with them, like Nikk, at length and compromise is just a word in dictionary between copulation and crap to them.

So again, this thread should be locked. All cloaking threads should be locked.

This actually comes pretty close to the mark, I think.

We want balance at the start of an encounter, in an ideal world.
Each side having the perception of fairness, if not advantage, so they feel confident when engaging.

The true problem here, is that player effort is not permitted or involved along these two aspects.

You can't make any effort to better know details about a target's presence. Local chat is telling both sides all they need to know, in order to make their decision.
You can't make any better effort to hide a cloaked ship. You have the maximum perfect concealment automatically.
As that is obvious to both sides, the result is as well.

The issue is made manifest, in that the balance is never broken. Sure, one side might make a mistake, but the chances of this fail to restore good game play. It simply is too remote, especially when dealing with experienced players.

We end up with a stalemate, as is always the case with perfect balance.
If neither side in a conflict gets the upper hand, it is never resolved.

OK so after reading the last few posts and others, it's pretty clear that no amount of discussion will lead you to understand anything from my point of view.

Couple examples as to why people get frustrated and topics about cloak get locked. They often degrade to petty arguing.

1. "That's great, but your suggestion is:
1. Probably not balanced."

- All this has done is show that you arent interested in looking as suggestions. Either from burn out or whatever, however you expect other people to read what you put up. Just in this example, my suggestion is in this exact thread and is not all that long, yet you didn't take the time to read it. I am sure your excuse is that "it's probably like all the others" and you dont need to read it.

2. "Let me also add I think cloaking/local are balanced; just not balanced very well."

- To me this makes little sense. Regardless of what the so called understanding of "balance" we all know what the implication of it is. Effective game play for both sides. Something that is balanced, yet unbalanced is ultimately unbalanced.

3. Adjustments to cloak is just a way to pad kill boards with easy kills, as stated a couple pages back

- This in itself is the underlying mentality of the PVPers. As it stands now. Cloak is a huge safety net. Any changes to it would take away part of that safety. I personally feel this safety net takes away from the game of Eve by providing the safety net that exists now and leaves people in a stalemate. And this isn't just afk cloaky camping. I personally dont put much thought into that anymore. A quick look at killboards can tell you if a camper is there to kill or just be annoying. No one complains about this though, and it provides far more info than local.

Look I do understand what you are saying. Local does give away your existence in system however that is just one variable. It is balanced in the regard that I know you are there and you know I am there. That part is balanced. However you can engage on me and I am unable to do anything but defend myself. Now I dont see this as bad. Stealth ships need to be able to have the element of surprise, however they dont need to have ultimate safety anywhere they go.

Your argument also is heavily biased against ratters and renters. This leads to threads like this being closed as well as it again degrades down to name calling again. Myself, I can see what you are saying and I respect it. I just disagree with it. Try putting yourself in the seat of an industrial player and see what they are saying.

Most of the stuff I have suggested, excluding my first poorly thought out ideas, have tried to look at both sides to increase the enjoyment of game play. Congrats on being dedicated to your point of view. That's fine. Little less passive aggressiveness in the posts might help.

I think at this point we just have to agree to disagree.

I would disagree here.

I have reread your posts, and they seem to assume that balance is equal to good game play. Perhaps this is not an intentional error, but I do believe you make this assumption.

Cloaking is perfectly balanced with local.
Perfect balance is a horrible thing, if it is maintained to this degree.

We want the PERCEPTION of balance, going into a conflict. This makes it interesting, in that players feel that their efforts are the key elements in resolving the issue.
If you start a fight with a clear advantage, it is not going to surprise you if you win. You will be unlikely to feel any thrill of victory with the odds clearly in your favor.

The key element of this, is that we need our efforts to unbalance the contest, and do so in a manner that results in one side losing.

But, this resolution is not present, the balance is maintained beyond either side's ability to sway in their favor.

Balance, to this degree, is called stalemate, and is not good for gameplay.

Damn. You guys are still going on over here?

I think the general concenisios is cloaky/local isn't ideal. A few questions then:

Has CCP ever shared their opinion on the local/cloaky issue to anybodies recolection?

Does a change in the local/cloak balance support CCPs current initiative to reduce force project?

If local was removed and some sort of cloak detection system was put in place would finding targets become too difficult for PVP roamers?