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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1061 - 2014-10-12 00:04:07 UTC
Querns wrote:
Sigras wrote:
6 years ago - Jump freighters didnt exist and null logistics were much more difficult (say hello to POS sov warfare before fuel blocks) somehow null sec empires limped along, its not like BoB or fortress delve was a thing...

Jump freighters did not exist, but carriers did -- and carriers, in that time, could hold assembled ships with any kind of cargo in them in their Ship Maintenance Bays.

This allowed carriers to hold a significant amount of items, pretty close to how much Jump Freighters can hold today.

In fact, Jump Freighters were added at the same time the carrier's ability to have loaded ships in its SMB was removed.

The first supercarrier that Goonswarm built was to be used as a logistics vessel.

In short, for a significant portion of the game's existence, jumping of large volumes of goods was possible.

And let's not even talk about using dreadnoughts to do roughly the same thing (because I forget exactly how it worked and when it stopped working.)



IN fact JF were added 6 months later.


You are right that there were alternatives. But carriers were like 1/50th the current rarity of today. THe existing carriers back then were not enough to cover all transportation. THings were still being moved by hauling.

I remember doing dozens of hualer rtaevls filled with megacyte as soon as drone regions were deployed (and megacite was worth 4 tiems its current price back then.

I had to apss trough L4X.. a hell of a place. Yet I lost only 1 hauler. HArdly the end of the world

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1062 - 2014-10-12 00:26:01 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:

More recently, when Zenimax rushed The Elder Scrolls Online into what has since become a painfully obvious TOO EARLY release, I was so disappointed in both the content and its shaky implementation that I decided not to play the game at all. this was probably my biggest disappointment. Poor planning and a worthless crafting mechanic killed all the buzz for this one quick. So yeah, full speed ahead can get you in trouble.

Oh and by the way, all those other studios have been bought, sold and traded like baseball cards, but CCP is still solvent and independent years later. So yeah, it sure looks like the long distance travel team has their wires crossed. But one thing about Eve, it teaches HARD lessons. They'll either get it right or wake up in their pod, one or the other.


I have done your path too and love our post!

Oh, I also had the same feeling in ESO, but I am still subbed for now.
K'rysteena Mocking'Jay
Doomheim
#1063 - 2014-10-12 00:35:10 UTC
Amazing, just like killing a frog with a slow boil. Once again the community settles for a bad idea just because it is not as bad as the original. The whole idea of this change to the jump capabilities will not increase activity it will only create small fiefdoms formed from the already existing residents. Just like the dictators of any era, the first thing you do to control a populous is to control their movement. This is not a move to freedom.

I am not saying that EVE is dead or anything like that, its is just a little less like an open sandbox and more like the death of the western United States when open ranges started being fenced in. Also how does the EVE Lore even support this kind of backwards step in technology. One day in a few years, possibly when the CQ door is opened, you will hear the Vets recounting stories of when Capital Ships were worth having. Way to kill a whole class of ships...
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1064 - 2014-10-12 00:54:28 UTC
K'rysteena Mocking'Jay wrote:
Amazing, just like killing a frog with a slow boil. Once again the community settles for a bad idea just because it is not as bad as the original.

Amazing, this type of maneuver was developed using the new 6week cycle

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1065 - 2014-10-12 00:57:02 UTC
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So yeah, it sure looks like the long distance travel team has their wires crossed. But one thing about Eve, it teaches HARD lessons. They'll either get it right or wake up in their pod, one or the other.

Maybe we'll wake up in a pod instead.

Because we got caught taking gates Shocked

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Perseus Kallistratos
The Maverick Navy
#1066 - 2014-10-12 01:08:33 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Perseus Kallistratos wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.
Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....

RENTERS

The endgame of eve online


Please describe to me in more detail the endgame of eve. color and 3d models preferred.


BOTLRD = END GAME

No need for 3d models, as long as you can read a sov map.



whats a bot lord.

color pictures please

tia
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1067 - 2014-10-12 01:16:37 UTC
Perseus Kallistratos wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.
Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....

RENTERS

The endgame of eve online


Please describe to me in more detail the endgame of eve. color and 3d models preferred.


Sorry PK I missed this. It is a valid avenue so I will reply in kind:

Please describe to me the endgame of the 21st century. Videos from 2099 will help.


In short, Eve is a work in progress. It will never be over - even if CCP goes out of business. Then it will merely be UNFINISHED.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#1068 - 2014-10-12 01:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Polo Marco
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.
Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....

RENTERS

The endgame of eve online


OK AF....


Since you apparently failed to understand my last reply post for you. I'll try again. Maybe you'll stop arguing with people who are quoting me long enough to listen.


You have literally SPAT the word renter out of your keyboard since you started posting. We all know about your prejudice.

Now.... suppose you were playing chess, and instead of TWO ROOKS, you had TWO RENTERS. Just like rooks only they are these THINGS that you don't like.

So you take them off the board and try to play without them (EWW cuties or whatever....)

Now, how do you expect to win when you start the game two pieces down?

Maybe this is why you are so unhappy with the game. It seems to me that, since YOU don't like RENTERS (rooks) and can't win without them, that you don't want anyone ELSE to have them either.

Do you think that this is a mature adult response?

Or better yet, EXPLAIN your prejudice. Go ahead, we are listening.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1069 - 2014-10-12 02:11:49 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
I'm sure you played a game called Risk before. In Risk you can move your pieces to one adjacent square each turn. At the moment in the current status quo in eve, you can move your pieces anywhere across the board in one turn. I hope you can understand what would happen if this was the case in Risk, and therefore see why it is game breaking in eve also hence the blue doughnut.


I am not completely against force projection changes. I just believe the current plan is short sighted and terribly planned. Also EVE is EVE, nothing else is EVE. If you want to play a version of risk online I'm sure there is something out there that exists for you to play.

cecil b d'milf wrote:
GeeBee wrote:
The carrier is the entry level ship for anyone getting into being an independent nullsec player or entity.


and you wonder why CCP needs to take action ?


This is taken out of context, the carrier is the entry level for logistics, it is cheap and has good range for moving small amounts of cargo or fitted ships. Its not your entry level combat ship.

Kiryen O'Bannon wrote:
GeeBee wrote:
This witch hunt of nerfing power projection makes be believe that CCP has lost sight of this being a sandbox MMO. All these silly regulations and stipulations and tribulations closing loops holes. Its a sandbox, what you're currently doing is overkill.


The "Sandbox Argument", in fact, is a perfect example of fallacious reasoning - specifically Non Sequiter and Special Pleading, and can easily be countered by Reduction to Absurdity.

All game mechanics and rules are regulations and stipulations of some sort. The fact that this is a game about spaceships and not wizards and dragons is a stipulation. The fact that a "cruiser" is larger than a "frigate" is a stipulation. Every game mechanic is a "Regulation" of some sort.

It therefore does not follow (Non Sequiter) that there is something wrong with the proposed changes simply because they introduce new and different stipulations, regulations, or close "loopholes". All game changes and updates do that in some respect; in fact even creating the game in the first place did so. Your argument, if taken literally, is that changes to the game are bad because they are changes and that a "sandbox" precludes balancing or improvement attempts (regardless of the merits of the individual attempts) because it might somehow affect player behavior. This is your argument taken to its logical conclusion and thereby reduced to absurdity.

There is no strict wall between "themepark" and "sandbox" but it defies reason to suggest that creating new rules (the "box" part of the sandBOX) to revitalize areas of the game that are stagnating inherently changes the game into a themepark.

What you are REALLY trying to argue (and will no doubt deny in a fit of "you can't read my mind!" despite making your real intentions pretty transparent) is that these changes somehow make the game "themepark" because you don't like them. You have some arbitrary line or criteria in your mind based on the gameplay you want to engage in, and this somehow violates it, so therefore it magically becomes "too themepark". This is Special Pleading at it's finest "These changes are too themepark and bad for the game because I don't like them!"

Like most people, you then make the case that this somehow means disaster for EVE. It is a common conceit of MMO players anywhere that any change they personally disapprove of means mass exodus from the game, but if MMO companies actually listened to such nonsense, we'd still be playing Everquest without any expansions.


Nope I just don't agree with the proposed plan. I believe the proposed plan is overkill. I do believe a change needs to happen but the way it is being implemented stifles travel even in local areas as well as cross country. The jump range reduction compounded with the jump fatigue means not only can you not reach where you want to go but also you will not make it there. Also you've connected more dots than a bucket of paint thrown at a wall, I suggest you get your head examined.
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#1070 - 2014-10-12 02:12:40 UTC  |  Edited by: GeeBee
Celly S wrote:
cecil b d'milf wrote:
GeeBee wrote:
The carrier is the entry level ship for anyone getting into being an independent nullsec player or entity.


and you wonder why CCP needs to take action ?


my first capital was an orca, then a freighter, then a JF, then a carrier.

I can't speak to being an independent player if they mean "solo" because I've always had friends in the game who have helped me and worked with me, and allowed me to help them and work with them during my entire time in the game, however, I can state with 100% certainty that a carrier was NOT the first thing on my list when I moved to null...

To date I have probably used my carriers (on all of my accounts that have them) a total of less than 15 times and most of those were goofing off with them for the lols of a reaper fielding fighters, an Ihub or POS bash or something like that...

if someone really believes that you can't be viable in nullsec without one?, then it is clear that they have a distorted view of some aspects and CCP does need to step in to stop the proliferation of such a silly idea.

There are far more important things to consider in Null than whether I have a carrier sitting in my hangar or not

o/
Celly Smunt


I've moved alot of subcaps with carriers, not because we were invading, but because we were running. The Fatigue changes actually increase the need for carrier pilots and carriers to move the subcapital ships that you have unless you intend on leaving them when you're about to get pushed out of your space. This decreases your abilitity to have spare ships around without the increased risk of having to leave them behind if your home system gets taken away from you. This is a negative force multiplier for a losing defender.

Also Orca's and Freighters really are not *capitals* the Orca is a *subcapital* and the Freighter is technically a capital but realistically its an oversized shuttle. Same goes for the JF except with its ability to jump. So congratulations your First Jump Capable Ship was a JF and it sounds like you have carriers but have never really put them to proper use.

I'm going to guess that you have only been in the sov since Dominion. Dominion Sov Mechanics that removed a large portion of the content creation from sov nullsec. I was very briefly in the nullsec world of tower spamming, it burned people out and they hated it, but it was better than the SBU / and timezone window selectors that we have now for stations and IHUBs. There was a reason to recruit for all timezones to keep your holdings secure, the game wasn't heavily split into timezone by Alliance, anywhere at anytime there was something going on. Its impossible to go back to the tower spam but a part of me believes eve would be a better place if it had never stopped. The reality is Force Projection is not as big of a problem as the nullsec mechanics are. The current nullsec mechanics just lay subdued to the ignorant that complain about being hot dropped all the time and cry that that bad man from over there touched me.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1071 - 2014-10-12 02:23:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
So, according to Eve lore, the jump drive utilizes wormhole technology. Therefore the idea of distance limits is absurd. Since there is no fatigue in jumping through natural wormholes, the idea of jump fatigue is equally baseless.

The limit to jumping should be imposed on the cyno generation side of the equation where the sovereign owner applies restrictions which prevent cynos from being generated in their space. This would naturally impose restrictions on how far ships could jump into enemy territory because capitals would have to jump to the boundary and then jump through the stargate to begin the invasion. That idea would extend naturally into high sec when CCP decides to have Concord allow cynos there.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#1072 - 2014-10-12 03:01:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Celly S
GeeBee wrote:

Also Orca's and Freighters really are not *capitals* the Orca is a *subcapital* and the Freighter is technically a capital but realistically its an oversized shuttle. Same goes for the JF except with its ability to jump. So congratulations your First Jump Capable Ship was a JF and it sounds like you have carriers but have never really put them to proper use.


1 x Orca
Capital Ship Construction Level I
Mechanics Level V
Advanced Industry Level V
Industry Level III
Industry Level V
4 x Capital Sensor Cluster
9 x Capital Capacitor Battery
38 x Capital Cargo Bay
7 x Capital Computer System
16 x Capital Construction Parts
7 x Capital Ship Maintenance Bay
4 x Capital Corporate Hangar Bay

Sorry, but the Orca is not a subcapital... otherwise someone has a weird sense of humor when putting together the building skills and parts list for it...

As to the rest of it, i have stated on more than one occasion that I wasted a long time living in high sec prior to moving to null, but, I have lived there long enough to know that there are many problems that plague null sec, SOV and resource distribution are just a couple, SOV of course is inclusive of several sub problems on it's own, but with that said I'll go to the "not using the ship properly" part of your reply.

most of what I've heard outside of helping corp or alliance mates and friends move their ships with the carriers are people wanting to go ratting in theirs.. so what is the criteria for proper use? Is it subjective?, inclusive, or exclusive of a particular activity?, or is it simply at the owner's discretion how they want to use their ship?
Surely every stealth bomber pilot who ever used their SB as a hunter and cov cyno ship must be improperly using their ship as well by that type reasoning, completely ignoring the fact that this community will do what it deems best with any ship, module, or mechanic that they can implement to their advantage...

additionally, your original statement didn't specify "jump capable" ships, nor did my reply, and even after you taking the time to explain a little more, I still stand by my statement that "There are far more important things to consider in Null than whether I have a carrier sitting in my hangar or not"... you pointed a few of them out as well.

o7
Celly Smunt

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1073 - 2014-10-12 03:18:12 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
The limit to jumping should be imposed on the cyno generation side of the equation where the sovereign owner applies restrictions which prevent cynos from being generated in their space. This would naturally impose restrictions on how far ships could jump into enemy territory because capitals would have to jump to the boundary and then jump through the stargate to begin the invasion. That idea would extend naturally into high sec when CCP decides to have Concord allow cynos there.

Huh, so...

Cyno jammers?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Celly S
Neutin Local LLC
#1074 - 2014-10-12 03:19:15 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:

Huh, so...

Cyno jammers?



I see what you did there :P

o/
Celly

Don't mistake fact for arrogance, supposition for fact, or disagreement for dismissal. Perception is unique in that it can be shared or singular. Run with the pack if you wish, but think for yourself. A sandwich can be a great motivator.

Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1075 - 2014-10-12 03:31:22 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Andy Landen wrote:
The limit to jumping should be imposed on the cyno generation side of the equation where the sovereign owner applies restrictions which prevent cynos from being generated in their space. This would naturally impose restrictions on how far ships could jump into enemy territory because capitals would have to jump to the boundary and then jump through the stargate to begin the invasion. That idea would extend naturally into high sec when CCP decides to have Concord allow cynos there.

Huh, so...

Cyno jammers?

Additionally, the above proposal does literally nothing to address the other issue at hand (other than territorial invasion)... that being to curtail the ability of caps to jump huge distances to hot drop whatever they like at the drop of a hat and then just as quickly withdraw back to safe territory.

This is the issue that has imposed such massive reluctance on the part of many entities to attack in certain area's or against any entity with cap ship capability.

In fact, the above proposal would make that problem even worse.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#1076 - 2014-10-12 03:33:32 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:
So yeah, it sure looks like the long distance travel team has their wires crossed. But one thing about Eve, it teaches HARD lessons. They'll either get it right or wake up in their pod, one or the other.

Maybe we'll wake up in a pod instead.

Because we got caught taking gates Shocked


You got forum poasting fatigue and are quoting stuff posted by somebody under someone else's name!
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1077 - 2014-10-12 03:35:21 UTC
The point was made above that it will be more difficult to ferry ships and materials out of an area that is about to be overrun.

To be blunt, this is actually more damaging to larger entities that have massive stockpiles built up... smaller entities will have a much more manageable task to deal with in that regard.

This is a good thing, especially from the point of view that large territory holdings "should" be very profitable but also very costly and difficult to defend.

View the latest EVE Online developments and other game related news and gameplay by visiting Ranger 1 Presents: Virtual Realms.

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1078 - 2014-10-12 03:42:03 UTC
Ranger 1 wrote:
The point was made above that it will be more difficult to ferry ships and materials out of an area that is about to be overrun.

To be blunt, this is actually more damaging to larger entities that have massive stockpiles built up... smaller entities will have a much more manageable task to deal with in that regard.

This is a good thing, especially from the point of view that large territory holdings "should" be very profitable but also very costly and difficult to defend.

I better evac now before elo knight takes over my home.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#1079 - 2014-10-12 03:45:55 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Now, here's the thing..... does CCP give away carriers?..... NO

But I'm gonna give you something. It's called a CLUE.

Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.

Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....


then maybe you'll have five queens too.

DHUUUUUHH.........




How about we just screw all the other pieces, throw them off the board completely, and everyone just uses queens...

Although queens aren't comparable as they can only travel in a straight or diagonal line, so we'd have to create a new piece which can go to any position on the board it likes. Because that'd make chess a lot more fun right?



Well in CHESS...... it's like kindergarten. They give everybody the same number of crayons...err pieces.. and the teacher....err nanny... walks around the room making sure Little Billy doesn't tease Julie Ann and make her cry...

But some day you have to GROW UP.

You have to WORK FOR A LIVING.

You have to MAKE YOUR OWN PIECES.

And maybe, just maybe, when you are big boys and girls, you will be ready for Eve Online.

You know.... The SANDBOX.....

It's a complete political-economic-military futuristic space MMO ( Did you read the advertisement before you subscribed?)

The guy who swings the sword in this game is only as good as the smith who forges it.

Did the great kings and generals of legend make their own weapons?

They had better things to do. You want to find Excalibur in a stone and just pull it out?

Maybe you're in the wrong game.

Eve is a game, and games are played for fun and for a challenge. As with the example before, chess is a game played for fun and for a challenge. This is why every piece isn't a queen which can teleport instantly anywhere on the board, as that would neither be fun, nor a challenge. At the moment, the blue doughnut is neither fun nor a challenge as many people have been complaining about for a while now, hence the proposed changes.

From your posting I can see you would like eve to be neither fun, nor a challenge, and would just like to keep the status quo. You don't seem to realise this though, and perhaps you are bringing some of your real life problems into this argument, as to be honest, your last reply is irrelevant when discussing a game, and it sounds just like your bringing your real life butt hurt into the discussion.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#1080 - 2014-10-12 07:26:13 UTC
Polo Marco wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
Hire some care/null bears. They will make you as many queens as you deserve.
Give them space to work. Give them access to resources and markets and charge them say........ two carriers a month....

RENTERS

The endgame of eve online


OK AF....


Since you apparently failed to understand my last reply post for you. I'll try again. Maybe you'll stop arguing with people who are quoting me long enough to listen.


You have literally SPAT the word renter out of your keyboard since you started posting. We all know about your prejudice.

Now.... suppose you were playing chess, and instead of TWO ROOKS, you had TWO RENTERS. Just like rooks only they are these THINGS that you don't like.

So you take them off the board and try to play without them (EWW cuties or whatever....)

Now, how do you expect to win when you start the game two pieces down?

Maybe this is why you are so unhappy with the game. It seems to me that, since YOU don't like RENTERS (rooks) and can't win without them, that you don't want anyone ELSE to have them either.

Do you think that this is a mature adult response?

Or better yet, EXPLAIN your prejudice. Go ahead, we are listening.

No I love our renters and help them find a nice place in the Greater Western Co-Prosperity sphere. Just check our adverts.

So heh.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?