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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Dirk MacGirk
Specter Syndicate
#901 - 2014-10-10 20:37:08 UTC
cecil b d'milf wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
cecil b d'milf wrote:
Dirk MacGirk wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Rather than nerfing everything into the ground up front, we'd rather catch the really obvious stuff first and then see how the game plays out.


Couldn't agree more. So why was the first devblog so focused on nerfing it all into the ground? Just to get a rise out of the community? Because now we have those who were happy with nerfing it into the ground being made to feel like you are "caving in", when in fact you are taking a logical, methodical approach. But before that we had to experience the threadnaught where those who saw it as unnecessarily aggressive were forced to point out a lot of very obvious issues.

Glad you finally got to this point, but not sure it had to take this path


Considering how confused you are by CCP's initial direction with these changes, perhaps you ought to consider the more logical explanation that it was intentional and they did "cave in".

Occam's razor pal.


Considering he has done exactly what he should have done in the first place, I think I've got a pretty good grasp on what the logical route was. They have multiple tools they can use in order to effect their desired outcome. They didn't need to drop the unopened toolbox from a 10-story building onto the problem, and then step themselves back, giving the impression of caving in. The modifications they have now come out with, all generally sensible, would have been the original outcome if they had bothered to discuss details with the CSM they way they should have. Instead, they brought it directly to the rabble using a worst-case scenario. That is bad judgment. And now that they have half of the people happy they showed moderation by using a logical process of change and review, they now have dopes who think they caved in. I guess you'd prefer a bad outcome as long as it means they didn't cave in on your illogical ideas. Make sense. Thank you for your insight, and good day sir.


Considering I was referring to what CCP intended to do and not making a comment about what they ought to have done, your lengthy explanation actually supports my point. It is far more reasonable to assume that CCP fully intended to drop the nerfquake and then backed away in the face of the tear tsunami that resulted. Your own confusion at why CCP would go about things in such an odd way if these tweaks were the original desired end point points to the more simple explanation that it never was the the desired end point. They were not "leaving themselves open to accusations of caving in"... they actually did cave in.
Loan--Wolf
Ace's And 8's
#902 - 2014-10-10 20:52:16 UTC
making timers for jumping is stupid and i wasted a year training for a capital dont guess you can take that skill and give my 2 bill in skill book isk and just credit me for the xp

no didnt think so wasted ******* toon
Robert Muse
Mech Holding's
Mech Alliance
#903 - 2014-10-10 21:04:01 UTC
I might have missed this in earlier posts/questions?

But what is happening to system jammers ?

Are they rendered obsolete now? is it not possilble to stop capitals entering a system with an active jammer?

Or will the an active jammer stop (only caps) jump the gate to a jammed system?

Seems a bit lame to me if jammers are now useless. What?
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#904 - 2014-10-10 21:08:18 UTC
Robert Muse wrote:
I might have missed this in earlier posts/questions?

But what is happening to system jammers ?

Are they rendered obsolete now? is it not possilble to stop capitals entering a system with an active jammer?

Or will the an active jammer stop (only caps) jump the gate to a jammed system?

Seems a bit lame to me if jammers are now useless. What?


It can still be useful at forcing them through a choke point, but CCP has said they will take a look at them in the future.
chbm
Tribal Mist
#905 - 2014-10-10 21:10:14 UTC
You met us halfway on blops and made things considerably better for industry. Nice to see something good has come from the feed and CCP is still listening to the player base.
Loan--Wolf
Ace's And 8's
#906 - 2014-10-10 21:13:04 UTC
something may have been brought up and i missed it what happens to these timers if you get caught and killed and poded out the timers should be attached to the ship like stress on the engines or something


and why not let rorqules in high now your killing the drone bonus and letting it jump gate it is nothing more than a big ass ore transport now
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#907 - 2014-10-10 21:13:19 UTC
I find the fatigue system overly complex.

My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.

There are more stars in the universe than all of the grains of sand on earth.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#908 - 2014-10-10 21:19:28 UTC
Brittney Calm wrote:

Also CCP greyscale one thought came up about supers and gates, I think the main problem people see is that you are going to have 200 man super fleets going gate to gate for lols. You should make the gate guns hit harder on capitals who choose to agro in lowsec, aka damage fit the class, also if the capital agro's on the gate, his other capital buddies should not be able to remote rep as he is flagged a criminal.

-BC


Put CONCORD Commanders on all losec gates; problem solved....




/troll
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#909 - 2014-10-10 21:21:31 UTC
Rowells wrote:
Robert Muse wrote:
I might have missed this in earlier posts/questions?

But what is happening to system jammers ?

Are they rendered obsolete now? is it not possilble to stop capitals entering a system with an active jammer?

Or will the an active jammer stop (only caps) jump the gate to a jammed system?

Seems a bit lame to me if jammers are now useless. What?


It can still be useful at forcing them through a choke point, but CCP has said they will take a look at them in the future.


Jammers should override gate control and block capitals. If you want a capital in a jammed system, you should have to take a wormhole or shut down the jammer.
Mycool Jahksn
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#910 - 2014-10-10 21:24:08 UTC
Black Viper1 wrote:
CCP,

Although the now improved changes to JFs help this still is a bad move for EVE, most importantly because;


1. EVE is supposed to be a sandbox.

So since EVE is supposed to be a great sandbox the recent changes and your responses to players comments, EX "If battle Rorquals become a thing they will be nerfed". That defeats the entire purpose of a sandbox type of environment, you are saying if you don't play in the sandbox in a manner that I would play in the sandbox and; since I have the power to change things I will, so you are forced to play the way that I want to play. That's the entire point of a sandbox environment! If someone wants to spend time training the fly a ship, and then use it in a role it is not intended then they are free to do that, that's why a certain type of people enjoy a sandbox environment. That is also one of the things that makes EVE great the freedom to enjoy the MASSIVELY complex environment that has been created here. If you continue to punish people for doing things that YOU don't think should be done then they will leave and find a different way to spend their time. Some people want to fly battle badgers, battle rorquals, do their manufacturing in high sec and sell the product in Jita, as long as they are paying there subscriptions and happy to do those things then what is the problem?! You have said on multiple issues lately, (battle rors, industry distribution, etc) that is they don't change you will nerf the activity to force them to do something else. That will destroy one of the great aspects of this game and drive people away from it.


2. Null stagnation is a problem and these changes make it worse.

These changes make holding space MUCH easier and taking space MUCH harder. Since supers take MUCH longer to move for an offensive attack the defenders will be able to move more supers in much easier due to the fact that they are closer and it will be easier to defend space due to a lack of aggressive force projection to counter the defensive super drop. There is currently no counter to a super capital blob, except a BIGGER super capital blob, (that may be part of your grand master plan and if so you need to unveil this new super capital blob counter mechanic before you turn supers into 5LY moveable stations with bigs, and triage modules). The leaders of the major NULL sec entities drafted a letter together about fixing NULL stagnation with 3 ideas that instead of punishing current NULL sec dwellers; makes it easier for new groups to enter null sec space and harder for the current entities to hold it, you appear to have gone the other way with this new patch.


3. Fixing null industry is a MUST but with these changes if you make null sec independent you will kill high sec.

If null sec industry is fixed, (which it should be) and you continue to nerf JF down to 5 LYs as you stated in this thread you want to, people won't risk taking there products out to high sec to sell them when there is now a thriving industry and the market for raw materials that goes with that. People aren't going to risk there caps warping to a gate with billions in the hold to jump into high sec since they can't jump straight into high sec due to the distance between systems. They just sell them in null, prices for moon materials, morphite, and other materials which can only be found in null will skyrocket, advanced high sec manufacturing will disappear, and most pilots will only be able to afford to fly T1 and faction ships. Unless you make ALL materials available in ALL regions and security status space, separating the two will cause industry to evaporate. High sec needs null sec just as much as null sec needs high sec, if you make moving items between the two far to difficult then pilots will stop doing it.


4. These changes will make travel time MUCH greater and cause less content to be available

By applying jump fatigue, (especially to jump bridges which are suppose to be a advantage / reward of holding space) you are causing travel in general; not just to supers much more difficult and time consuming. Flying around space is something that all EVE players have to do, but not something that should be a major focus. People who want to PVP don't want to spend 55 minutes getting to a fight and still end up with a big jump fatigue timer, to only fight for 10 minutes and then turn around and go home, (unless you lose, then the trip home is much quicker). Logistics, traveling, and setup are all part of this game but if that becomes the major focus of everyones EVE experience then they will look elsewhere to find there entertainment.


By adding the jump fatigue timer instead of a static 4-5 minute cool down to ships that have a jump drive, and setting unnecessary limitations on pod expressing yourself; you are forcing people to spend less time enjoying the content that can be had in EVE and more time waiting for a cool down or taking 7 jumps around your own space instead of the JB that they installed in their home system.


This.. Making travel take longer is just plain stupid, it already takes a long time as it is.

My interests include but are not limited to throwing rocks at bee hives.

There are more stars in the universe than all of the grains of sand on earth.
metallica212
Harbingers of Chaos Inc.
Fraternity.
#911 - 2014-10-10 21:37:00 UTC
Though I feel this is better, and will keep all null logistics people from killing themselves, I am still concerned about the 1-2 punch to all combat (and rorq) capitals.

Most people won't agree with me, but I still feel that there needs to be a range reduction OR jump fatigue, not both. I am perfectly fine with the cooldown timer and even the range reduction, but the added fatigue absolutely CRIPPLES any meaningful attacking power via capital ships.

For example, in our current state, I can undock and attack NO LESS than 325 systems from my home station. I feel like this is excessive, personally, and gives too much freedom with where I can go.

Now, AFTER these changes go into effect, I can only jump to a measly 56 systems, which doesn't even allow me to jump in defense of our regions unless I want to make 2-3 jumps and ship spin for roughly an hour or two between destinations. Once I finally DO get there, repel attackers, and make it back home, I am sitting on a matter of days or even WEEKS of fatigue, crippling my combat usefulness once again. This is my only problem with this proposed mechanic.

PS CCP- If you are going to allow Titans to take gates, you might want to make the gates larger than the Titans that are jumping.
Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#912 - 2014-10-10 21:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Medalyn Isis
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Darryl Brown wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Black Ops fatigue is a value we're happy to tune, within a reasonable range. Make a case for a number and we'll listen :)


Oooh, ooh, pick me!

Combat black ops drops (e.g. Falcon tackles Rattlesnake in a Sanctum, lights covert cyno, two Panthers and a Sin jump in and kill Rattlesnake) are great fun. They add value to Eve because ratting with neuts or reds in local should be risky. They're not perfect; the target might be pre-aligned to a safe, loaded with warp core stabilizers, handy with an AB and MJD, or bait for a counter-drop. Blops drops depend upon stealth, patience, and mobility. The primary weapon is surprise - and jumping to the hunter cyno is essential for the surprise to work.

Here's how things work currently:
The hunter roams through a region, dodging gate camps and looking wistfully at shiny ships in POSes. At last! He spots a target in an anomaly. Things happen quickly - decloak, tackle, cyno, blops bses jump in, target dies, cyno down, scoop the loot, leave the scene. The black ops battleships wait for jump cap and then return to the staging system via jump. The hunter moves on in search of the next target.

Here's how things would work with a 5ly jump with these revised changes:
Hunter cyno goes up, Blops ships jump in, kill the target, and wait for 1+2.5 minutes before the jump cool-down expires. If they jump 5ly to the exit cyno after 3.5 minutes with 3.15 fatigue they get 3.15 x 3.5 = 11.025 fatigue and are done for the day. If they choose to wait in the system for at least 25 minutes, their fatigue drops below 1 and the next jump isn't quite so painful.

Assuming they're adaptive folks - they have abandoned the practice of always returning to the staging system and instead wait to jump directly to the next target. Either way - there is no point in continuing to hunt for 20+ minutes until the combat blops pilots' fatigue is reduced. This is not fun. Although I suppose the hunter could go around and do "catch and release" fishing for a bit. How about taking gates? Combat blops ships are certainly better than most ships at navigating bubble camps (better speed while cloaked, can fit MJDs), but they're also pricey and fragile. Plus, they warp at 2.2au/s, so warping from in-gate to target is not feasible.

I think a -50% fatigue factor is better than the original proposal but still extremely constraining. The added range (8 vs. 7.5ish) is nice, but this iteration would still mean 1-2 potential kills per session. Currently the limiting factors are all based on player behavior: Can you catch someone? Did they use their intel network and successfully avoid you?

Counter-point to what I just said:
If the blops jump drive (or covert bridge) receives a gentler nerf than this current iteration (as I think it should), it could potentially serve as a work-around for the consequences of other changes to movement in Phoebe. This is already the case for Jump Freighters-as-taxis (and industrials?), but Blops ships are considerably cheaper and more accessible (and covert bridges would be even more accessible).

In conclusion, I would be really sad if Phoebe removed the viability of blops drops from EVE. I am in favor of the vision behind Phoebe, but I really don't want blops ships to be collateral damage and I hope that you don't, too.


Excellent, thank you :)

The maths given in that example is incorrect. 11.025 means a jump cooldown of 11 minutes. You seem to think that means you are "done for the day", which indicates you are misunderstanding something. Why would that mean you are done for the day?

Also just to clarify something. Is it ( 1 + fatigue ) * 'fatigue reduction factor' OR 1 + 'fatigue' * 'fatigue reduction factor' ?

BTW the first point is directed at Darryl.
cynomakinggirl
No Risk No ISK
#913 - 2014-10-10 21:46:15 UTC
I think jump fatigue should be tweaked a bit so that you can still cross the universe in an hour, but cannot cross it twice in the same week.

"The internet is a reliable source of information." - Abraham Lincoln
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#914 - 2014-10-10 21:51:14 UTC
Kassasis Dakkstromri wrote:
Has a survey been taken of Regional Jump distances to ensure there are no 5.984 LY ranges? Or should we expect substantial Regional Capital Jump system "choke points" to come into existence with the launch of Phoebe on TQ?

Perhaps, but you should also be aware that in some cases the changes to travel mechanics make moving around easier. For example, if I want to move a titan from Tenal to Cobalt Edge, it'll be able to take the gate from SF-XJS to HB-5L3 - a single jump, whereas before moving between these two systems took 7 jumps minimum with a JDC 5 carrier.
Aatrek's School Bus
#915 - 2014-10-10 21:53:13 UTC
good change please give

but please make rorq 10 light year range

no one use drones in rorq that just dumb
Kassasis Dakkstromri
State War Academy
Caldari State
#916 - 2014-10-10 21:53:39 UTC
Hmmm - Gate bubbled Titan does not seem like easier travel option some how.... Ugh

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf
Verbatim Rotsuda
Phoenix City
Fraternity.
#917 - 2014-10-10 21:59:52 UTC
Whats going on with "(...) Stealth Bombers and Heavy Interdictors rebalance"?
Irya Boone
The Scope
#918 - 2014-10-10 22:07:14 UTC
now nerf the number of ships which can Jump on a cyno please

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#919 - 2014-10-10 22:15:53 UTC
Irya Boone wrote:
now nerf the number of ships which can Jump on a cyno please

This doesn't do anything meaningful. The ships that cyno in can light their own cynos, allowing more people through, who can light their OWN cynos, and so on. It just adds extra tedium for no real benefit.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Robert Muse
Mech Holding's
Mech Alliance
#920 - 2014-10-10 22:18:56 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
Rowells wrote:
Robert Muse wrote:
I might have missed this in earlier posts/questions?

But what is happening to system jammers ?

Are they rendered obsolete now? is it not possilble to stop capitals entering a system with an active jammer?

Or will the an active jammer stop (only caps) jump the gate to a jammed system?

Seems a bit lame to me if jammers are now useless. What?


It can still be useful at forcing them through a choke point, but CCP has said they will take a look at them in the future.


Jammers should override gate control and block capitals. If you want a capital in a jammed system, you should have to take a wormhole or shut down the jammer.



They should do indeed i agree, but i've not heard they will and thus will be rendered useless and leave systems un-jammed for all and any caps to jump through. Unless the use the mechanics to stop caps jumping into jammed systems. They need to confirm the details on this.