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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#601 - 2014-10-10 06:30:28 UTC
I am as sad panda about these revisions as I was about the announcement.

Welcome to SUB CAPS Online. The only MMO-game in the 21st century where useless Capital ships were "designed" to create game timers in large groups for people who have nothing better to do with their days....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Perseus Kallistratos
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#602 - 2014-10-10 06:31:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Perseus Kallistratos
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:

You are ignoring so many facts in your calculation. T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char. Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too. Insta locking is possible in some cases (wrong inti fit/****** skills). So there is a lot of risk involed, and I bet ppl find even more ways. Fact is you can keep ppl away from any risk using Industials and JB/Titans while going gate to gate involes risk, more attention from the player and a way bigger footprint (even on the ingame MAP).


You're ignoring that bubbles stop T1 industrials cold, while being literally ignored by an interceptor.

Constructing a complicated vignette to try and prove an edge case is a pretty sure sign that you're out of ideas, and are only arguing because someone you don't like disagrees with you.


Putting aside all the bad things that can happen to the one jump a hauler needs to make between JBs or the zillion gates the interceptor has to take...

the point is still that its faster to travel long distances using a well designed jb network than an interceptor.

My point has nothing to do with you being in goonswarm or cfc or whatever identity you think makes people disagree with you. People are disagreeing with you because you're wrong and are literally too stupid to see this glaring hole in making t1 haulers exempt from the extra large nerfbat.

Perhaps if you made a 3d animation of your tests we could be convinced otherwise.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#603 - 2014-10-10 06:31:44 UTC
Tootenh'amon wrote:
I wonder where in a jb titan chain the bubbles will be... You'll deploy them yourselves?

So, now instead of jump bridges, it's titan chains? Are we taking titan bridges the entire way from YA0 to F2O?

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/jump/Moros,044/YA0-XJ:F2OY-X

(yes it says moros 0 but dotlan doesn't let you use the jump bridge option through lowsec and npc 0.0, and moros 0 has the same range as a JB and a post-phoebe titan's bridge range)

That's sixteen jumps. No matter how much you might want to throw caution to the wind and ignore fatigue, at 16 jumps you HAVE to obey the 5 minute speed limit. That's 1h20m and 16 pilots that have to be carefully placed along the route who can do nothing else but cannon wreathes and mastodons around.

Again, unfit interceptors can do that run in 30 minutes. God help you if you actually rig for warp speed. You're not thinking these vignettes through particularly well.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Segava
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#604 - 2014-10-10 06:33:36 UTC
Does being in low-sec: Gate cloak + jump drive + ready cyno= invulnerability?

How will this mechanic function?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#605 - 2014-10-10 06:35:56 UTC
Inslander Wessette wrote:
i can do 37 k m^3 on my interon 5 ? + Force projection is not entirely about time taken to travel but also how you travel. Moving through cyno's makes you hard to intercept . An the harder to predict /intercept . Exactly why would i be travel fit again ?

Because, no matter what, you still have to take gates. You still have to warp, you still have to align. These things take time. Titan bridging is not instantaneous travel, and neither are jump bridges, and that is even before you take fatigue into account. Being travel fit cuts a significant amount of time off your journey.

37k m^3 isn't even enough to hold a battleship, anyways. You need a DST for that, which costs a hell of a lot more than a T1 industrial or an interceptor. They also take a lot more training time -- not that I think that is a particularly relevant argument, but it keeps getting brought up, so I might as well use it to my own advantage, seeing as it seems to be important to some.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
G'Kar Rin
State War Academy
Caldari State
#606 - 2014-10-10 06:38:01 UTC
Vlade Randal wrote:
+1 Great idea changing jump freighter jump range to 10ly

The Rorqual is used a lot in nullsec transport, for dropping control towers, fueling pos, and as an alternative logistical transport ship for those lacking the skills or isk for a jump freighter. It plays a vital role in current nullsec logistics at present. Therefore, I suggest that the rorqual should also have the 10ly range to enable it to continue its vital role in 0.0.

The only other suggestion I would make, is that 5ly is marginally short for reaching key logistics points that have stations to dock in. Several of the jump routes i have looked at are 5.1ly to 5.8ly. Therefore I recommend increasing maximum jump range of combat vessels to 6ly. This would still achieve the goal of reducing force projection, while keeping it reasonably painless to move combat ships over time when needed.




+1
Kalissis
#607 - 2014-10-10 06:38:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalissis
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:

You are ignoring so many facts in your calculation. T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char. Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too. Insta locking is possible in some cases (wrong inti fit/****** skills). So there is a lot of risk involed, and I bet ppl find even more ways. Fact is you can keep ppl away from any risk using Industials and JB/Titans while going gate to gate involes risk, more attention from the player and a way bigger footprint (even on the ingame MAP).


You're ignoring that bubbles stop T1 industrials cold, while being literally ignored by an interceptor.

Constructing a complicated vignette to try and prove an edge case is a pretty sure sign that you're out of ideas, and are only arguing because someone you don't like disagrees with you.



I called you out on at least 4 risks for interceptors beeing used and you are ignoring 2 of them. Also no how are you going to bubble Titan to Titan jumping, tell me?

FACT1: T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char.
FACT2: Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. -> Need warp offs, more time involed!
FACT3: Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too.
FACT4: Wrong inti Fit -> caught
FACT5: Bad skills -> caught
FACT6: Pilot error -> caught
FACT7: Bigger footprint -> intel!

Now you dont need to use JBs but yes it will be faster not only on fleet ops but if you want to go in your NULL imperium from A->B. And I'm fully aware that you need to take 1 jump over to the next system (in best case) to get to the next JB, still no intercepter can make 12-40jumps while you only take 2 JB and 1 system gate.
Perseus Kallistratos
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#608 - 2014-10-10 06:39:36 UTC
G'Kar Rin wrote:
Vlade Randal wrote:
+1 Great idea changing jump freighter jump range to 10ly

The Rorqual is used a lot in nullsec transport, for dropping control towers, fueling pos, and as an alternative logistical transport ship for those lacking the skills or isk for a jump freighter. It plays a vital role in current nullsec logistics at present. Therefore, I suggest that the rorqual should also have the 10ly range to enable it to continue its vital role in 0.0.

The only other suggestion I would make, is that 5ly is marginally short for reaching key logistics points that have stations to dock in. Several of the jump routes i have looked at are 5.1ly to 5.8ly. Therefore I recommend increasing maximum jump range of combat vessels to 6ly. This would still achieve the goal of reducing force projection, while keeping it reasonably painless to move combat ships over time when needed.




+1


Vlade stop using your alts to +1 your terrible suggestions.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#609 - 2014-10-10 06:42:25 UTC
Perseus Kallistratos wrote:

Putting aside all the bad things that can happen to the one jump a hauler needs to make between JBs or the zillion gates the interceptor has to take...

the point is still that its faster to travel long distances using a well designed jb network than an interceptor.

My point has nothing to do with you being in goonswarm or cfc or whatever identity you think makes people disagree with you. People are disagreeing with you because you're wrong and are literally too stupid to see this glaring hole in making t1 haulers exempt from the extra large nerfbat.

Perhaps if you made a 3d animation of your tests we could be convinced otherwise.

Feel free to design a better jump bridge network than we currently have. Ours is pretty darn efficient at getting nerds from Deklein to Delve. Fountain in particular.

I'm not wrong -- I can prove my points with simple math. All you and yours have are some weird, hypocritical hatred for jump bridges, and an example in one region where you've chosen the worst possible central location by gates because it's one jump from the irrelevant lowsec craphole you seem so hellbent on reaching.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#610 - 2014-10-10 06:45:02 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:

You are ignoring so many facts in your calculation. T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char. Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too. Insta locking is possible in some cases (wrong inti fit/****** skills). So there is a lot of risk involed, and I bet ppl find even more ways. Fact is you can keep ppl away from any risk using Industials and JB/Titans while going gate to gate involes risk, more attention from the player and a way bigger footprint (even on the ingame MAP).


You're ignoring that bubbles stop T1 industrials cold, while being literally ignored by an interceptor.

Constructing a complicated vignette to try and prove an edge case is a pretty sure sign that you're out of ideas, and are only arguing because someone you don't like disagrees with you.



I called you out on at least 4 risks for interceptors beeing used and you are ignoring 2 of them. Also no how are you going to bubble Titan to Titan jumping, tell me?

FACT1: T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char.
FACT2: Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. -> Need warp offs, more time involed!
FACT3: Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too.
FACT4: Wrong inti Fit -> caught
FACT5: Bad skills -> caught
FACT6: Pilot error -> caught
FACT7: Bigger footprint -> intel!

Now you dont need to use JBs but yes it will be faster not only on fleet ops but if you want to go in your NULL imperium from A->B. And I'm fully aware that you need to take 1 jump over to the next system (in best case) to get to the next JB, still no intercepter can make 12-40jumps while you only take 2 JB and 1 system gate.

There you go with that complicated vignette again. All of the dangers you listed for interceptors apply to t1 industrials too. I showed earlier that going from titan to titan is, frankly, a ludicrous waste of time compared to gate travel post-patch. It's two and a half times slower than taking gates in an interceptor and requires 32 pilots staged in boring lowsec crapholes to light cynos and run nerd cannons.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Perseus Kallistratos
Lowlife.
Snuffed Out
#611 - 2014-10-10 06:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Perseus Kallistratos
Kalissis wrote:

still no intercepter can make 12-40jumps while you only take 2 JB and 1 system gate.


Judging by his posting and looking at the complexity of the CFC JB network, without an autopilot system that utilizes JBs our friend probably gets lost. This could lead to increased time on his JB results.

I suggest an autopilot upgrade which takes coalition JBs into account, making it less complicated for our less skilled players to move themselves around the game.
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#612 - 2014-10-10 06:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Inslander Wessette
Querns wrote:
Inslander Wessette wrote:
i can do 37 k m^3 on my interon 5 ? + Force projection is not entirely about time taken to travel but also how you travel. Moving through cyno's makes you hard to intercept . An the harder to predict /intercept . Exactly why would i be travel fit again ?

Because, no matter what, you still have to take gates. You still have to warp, you still have to align. These things take time. Titan bridging is not instantaneous travel, and neither are jump bridges, and that is even before you take fatigue into account. Being travel fit cuts a significant amount of time off your journey.

37k m^3 isn't even enough to hold a battleship, anyways. You need a DST for that, which costs a hell of a lot more than a T1 industrial or an interceptor. They also take a lot more training time -- not that I think that is a particularly relevant argument, but it keeps getting brought up, so I might as well use it to my own advantage, seeing as it seems to be important to some.


T1 hauler:

The 30 min training time ,

The cheap cost

The reduction in fatigue.

m^3 transported.

Jumping from Titan1 to station --> warping station to Titan 2 --> Titan 2 to target location or titan 1 > titan 2> target. Using key jump points, making it a lot safer .

Sorry to say the adv out weight the small disadv they will have over interceptor travel of being a bit more faster .

Edit : Lol i guess someone replied similarly above before me :p
Catt Stevens
Karusaka Family
#613 - 2014-10-10 06:51:23 UTC
Greyscale CAN I HAVE YOUR BABIES!!!!!!
Kalissis
#614 - 2014-10-10 06:52:01 UTC
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:


FACT1: T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char.
FACT2: Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. -> Need warp offs, more time involed!
FACT3: Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too.
FACT4: Wrong inti Fit -> caught
FACT5: Bad skills -> caught
FACT6: Pilot error -> caught
FACT7: Bigger footprint -> intel!

Now you dont need to use JBs but yes it will be faster not only on fleet ops but if you want to go in your NULL imperium from A->B. And I'm fully aware that you need to take 1 jump over to the next system (in best case) to get to the next JB, still no intercepter can make 12-40jumps while you only take 2 JB and 1 system gate.

There you go with that complicated vignette again. All of the dangers you listed for interceptors apply to t1 industrials too. I showed earlier that going from titan to titan is, frankly, a ludicrous waste of time compared to gate travel post-patch. It's two and a half times slower than taking gates in an interceptor and requires 32 pilots staged in boring lowsec crapholes to light cynos and run nerd cannons.


The only complicated thing here is that you are complete ignorant of FACTS. I'm not biased or have any hatred towards you or your group, your playstyle is not affecting me at all. But facts are facts and you are not even trying to argument them because you dont have any, because there are none against.
puzzla
Perkone
Caldari State
#615 - 2014-10-10 06:52:09 UTC
Vlade Randal wrote:
+1 Great idea changing jump freighter jump range to 10ly

The Rorqual is used a lot in nullsec transport, for dropping control towers, fueling pos, and as an alternative logistical transport ship for those lacking the skills or isk for a jump freighter. It plays a vital role in current nullsec logistics at present. Therefore, I suggest that the rorqual should also have the 10ly range to enable it to continue its vital role in 0.0.

The only other suggestion I would make, is that 5ly is marginally short for reaching key logistics points that have stations to dock in. Several of the jump routes i have looked at are 5.1ly to 5.8ly. Therefore I recommend increasing maximum jump range of combat vessels to 6ly. This would still achieve the goal of reducing force projection, while keeping it reasonably painless to move combat ships over time when needed.





+1
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#616 - 2014-10-10 06:53:34 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:


FACT1: T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char.
FACT2: Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. -> Need warp offs, more time involed!
FACT3: Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too.
FACT4: Wrong inti Fit -> caught
FACT5: Bad skills -> caught
FACT6: Pilot error -> caught
FACT7: Bigger footprint -> intel!

Now you dont need to use JBs but yes it will be faster not only on fleet ops but if you want to go in your NULL imperium from A->B. And I'm fully aware that you need to take 1 jump over to the next system (in best case) to get to the next JB, still no intercepter can make 12-40jumps while you only take 2 JB and 1 system gate.

There you go with that complicated vignette again. All of the dangers you listed for interceptors apply to t1 industrials too. I showed earlier that going from titan to titan is, frankly, a ludicrous waste of time compared to gate travel post-patch. It's two and a half times slower than taking gates in an interceptor and requires 32 pilots staged in boring lowsec crapholes to light cynos and run nerd cannons.


The only complicated thing here is that you are complete ignorant of FACTS. I'm not biased or have any hatred towards you or your group, your playstyle is not affecting me at all. But facts are facts and you are not even trying to argument them because you dont have any, because there are none against.

^^ i agree with you
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#617 - 2014-10-10 06:55:47 UTC
Inslander Wessette wrote:
T1 hauler:

The 30 min training time ,

The cheap cost

The reduction in fatigue.

m^3 transported.

Jumping from Titan1 to station --> warping station to Titan 2 --> Titan 2 to target location . Using key jump points, making it a lot safer .

Sorry to say the adv out weight the small disadv they will have over interceptor travel of being a bit more faster .

Edit : Lol i guess someone replied similarly above before me :p

Ah, yes, training time -- truly the lynchpin of the experience. Woe is me -- the 10 days it takes to fly an interceptor is truly a barrier worth mentioning.

And the cost -- lord have mercy, that 30m cost for an interceptor.

All this time, I have been ignoring the ability of the interceptor to use a jump bridge. Sure, you can't use nearly as many, but the interceptor can use one on his journey with few adverse effects. This cuts his travel time down too!

You're insane if you think that jumping from titan to titan without taking gates every once in a while is somehow faster than zipping down the pipe in a nullified interceptor. Five minutes per jump. Five minutes per jump. Please repeat that until it is burned into your brain.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#618 - 2014-10-10 06:55:52 UTC
It is an improvement. I'll have to think about the numbers a bit when I finish my morning cofee but it might not totally kill off viability of living in some NPC regions, like, for example, Stain and/or deeper null sec regions, like, for example, Esoteria.

Fatigue reduction for industrial's is an interesting twist. And ofc BLOPS bridges as well.

Could you, pretty please, revisit nano-fibers and make them reduce the ship's mass again? Or if not introduce a special module that would make blops consume less fuel if bridging something (and also decay WH's a bit less if ship going through has these mods fitted).

It's a complex setup but I'm getting ideas involving many alts, blops and blocade runners for pushing smaller packages.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#619 - 2014-10-10 06:59:12 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
Querns wrote:
Kalissis wrote:


FACT1: T1 industies can be learned in no time while interceptors can take up to 23d on a fresh char.
FACT2: Smartbombing incoming Interceptors is very well possible, look at how rens pirates perfected smart bombing back then, a focused group will kill every interceptor crossing. -> Need warp offs, more time involed!
FACT3: Well timed bombing runs will kill your interceptors too.
FACT4: Wrong inti Fit -> caught
FACT5: Bad skills -> caught
FACT6: Pilot error -> caught
FACT7: Bigger footprint -> intel!

Now you dont need to use JBs but yes it will be faster not only on fleet ops but if you want to go in your NULL imperium from A->B. And I'm fully aware that you need to take 1 jump over to the next system (in best case) to get to the next JB, still no intercepter can make 12-40jumps while you only take 2 JB and 1 system gate.

There you go with that complicated vignette again. All of the dangers you listed for interceptors apply to t1 industrials too. I showed earlier that going from titan to titan is, frankly, a ludicrous waste of time compared to gate travel post-patch. It's two and a half times slower than taking gates in an interceptor and requires 32 pilots staged in boring lowsec crapholes to light cynos and run nerd cannons.


The only complicated thing here is that you are complete ignorant of FACTS. I'm not biased or have any hatred towards you or your group, your playstyle is not affecting me at all. But facts are facts and you are not even trying to argument them because you dont have any, because there are none against.

Your facts are equally applicable to T1 industrials. Interceptors take 10d to train (racial frigate: 3d, evasive maneuvering 5: 7d) -- low training time, check. Smartbombing kills T1 industrials, check. Well timed bombing runs kill T1 industrials, check. Wrong T1 industrial fit = caught, check. Bad skills -> caught? T1 industrial, checkaroonie. Pilot error -> caught? You better believe T1 industrials get a check here. Bigger footprint? Logging on 16 titan pilots to bridge industrials around ISN'T a big footprint? Contact lists exist. T1 industrial footprint? Check.

You can't selectively apply your "facts" to interceptors and not allow them to touch T1 industrials too.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Zhul Chembull
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#620 - 2014-10-10 07:01:18 UTC
Odelll wrote:
I was really looking forward to a new dawn in EvE, yet already CCP is folding.

The changes as they were meant the region of space directly effects what your able to build / field, finally we had a glimpse of space having meaning and may I even dream, an eve world without jita being the continuous feedback loop. As is, this concession will make most of these changes business as usual for most of Null.

TLDR; Stop listening to logistics tycoons, stay the coarse, remove empire trading from the nullsec equation all together and let us truely live in space!

I'm disappointed that you increased the JF range to 10AU
even more disappointed your giving Blops 8AU range + 50% reduction (T3+refit = new meta)

Please go back to shaking up the game, no more easy mode concessions!




You will be ok logistics are essential. I wont go into explaining because you just would not understand.