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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#501 - 2014-10-10 02:33:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Grath Telkin
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:

2 jbs, 1.5 minutes for the first, then take the second, i'm not sure where you get your numbers

EDIT: I suddenly think one of the two of us doesn't understand what that cooldown reduction does to T1 haulers and i think its you.

if you had to do 2 jbs, you would jump, wait 1.5 minutes, and jump again.

Not 5 minutes.

Your assumption is that you would always jump as soon as your cooldown is off,


Yea, turns out that 90% reduction makes that almost exactly what you want to do, jump every time your cool down is off.


EDIT: and my point about using 6VDT-Hophib is that the people that live there can literally leave a remote ass part of fountain like no big deal as often as they want without ever really taking more than 2 gates and 5 minutes of time, and this is at a time when we're supposed to be addressing force projection.

Go on, defend it, you know you can't NOT defend it.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#502 - 2014-10-10 02:35:18 UTC
Also, this is 6VDT you are talking about -- it's in Fountain, a border region to Delve. You are optimizing in a space of about 10 minutes here, not the extra half hour the industrial needs to waddle down to Delve from Deklein.

I dunno about you, but being able to march a subcap force to the next region isn't really a significant amount of power projection. Deklein to Delve is -- this is why I chose it for my example.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#503 - 2014-10-10 02:38:44 UTC
Leaving the heart of any region should take 5 minutes and 2 gates - GSF Logistics team on proper force projection controls.

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#504 - 2014-10-10 02:39:33 UTC
http://i.imgur.com/iJj6K92.png

Nothing wrong with this picture at all

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Turrann Dallocort
The Legion of Spoon
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#505 - 2014-10-10 02:40:42 UTC
I really wish the rework of the rorqual would stop getting kicked down the road already. There is no real reason to not just let us have the 10ly that the JF is getting. We are willing to work with you on the drone thing. And no, don't throw out the battle rorq as a new use for the rorq since you took away a good bit of it's use. That's cute and all but not really what industrialist got into the rorqual to begin with for.
Jeyz Vega
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#506 - 2014-10-10 02:42:56 UTC
So unbelievable sad. They only acceptable reaction could have been a FULL discard of this big big insult. But no, they change plans slightly and everyone is screaming "yaay". Please be ashamed of yourself.

Like i said like a hundred times: No need for Math.

There is WAY too much time involved, Major part of the game, not our fault, bla bla bla. If you dont get it by now, not my problem.

Now the Forum-Bears will go like; "oh, than leave! Eve will be a better place without your type of guy! I WANT to fleet with 5,6,7 or more guys just to get stuff from a to b. This is fun, this is EVE!"- No, it isnt.

Take note; This will be the ACTUAL end of EVE. I mean, were not talking about a "nerf". This is still a proper castration.

Eve was, for a 10+ year old game, pretty alive. Making a major change like that isnt acceptable in ANY way.

Even if you probably will - there is nothing more to say about this.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#507 - 2014-10-10 02:44:20 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Leaving the heart of any region should take 5 minutes and 2 gates - GSF Logistics team on proper force projection controls.

I'm not on the logistics team. I don't even have roles in waffe :confused:

Also, considering that my 30m interceptor trek from deklein to delve takes us through six regions (Deklein, Fade, Pure Blind, Cloud Ring, Fountain, Delve,) I'd say 5m is about right!

Grath Telkin wrote:
http://i.imgur.com/iJj6K92.png

Nothing wrong with this picture at all

What are you even trying to say with this? BOT has plenty of jump bridges too (well, I assume -- if you guys haven't put up bridges there IDK what is wrong with you.) Is it somehow more wrong when we use them?

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Segava
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#508 - 2014-10-10 02:49:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Segava
Excellent work CCP.

Any news on a cap on extreme jump fatigue times? Or is this a myth that has been misunderstood?

Secondly, obviously you intend jump bridge travel to be slightly faster now that everyone will sit in a hauler to get around the universe. This is intended correct? It doesn't seem too different from the old days! If this is intended, then I am quite sad about reverting the intended goals.
Iosue
League of Gentlemen
The Initiative.
#509 - 2014-10-10 02:52:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Querns wrote:
Is trading the drone damage bonus on rorqs for 10LY max range in the interim, before you do a proper balance pass on rorquals, something you all are willing to do?


Happy to discuss it, yes :)


excellent!

i've owned a rorq for years and have never used or considered using the drone damage bonus. i have used it extensively to manage npc null pos's. the ability to add a mwd and improve its crusing speed makes it attractive to use when jumping into non station systems. as mentioned by many others, this is what the ship currently excels at. until a meaningful revamp in done, please don't hinder its current role.
Dbars Grinding
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#510 - 2014-10-10 02:52:30 UTC
ADarwinAward Winner wrote:
9 LY lets jump freighters cover most of the regional gaps. Don't go all the way to 10.



god forbid a 6bil+ ship be useful. pls go away.

I have more space likes than you. 
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#511 - 2014-10-10 02:54:26 UTC
Iosue wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Querns wrote:
Is trading the drone damage bonus on rorqs for 10LY max range in the interim, before you do a proper balance pass on rorquals, something you all are willing to do?


Happy to discuss it, yes :)


excellent!

i've owned a rorq for years and have never used or considered using the drone damage bonus. i have used it extensively to manage npc null pos's. the ability to add a mwd and improve its crusing speed makes it attractive to use when jumping into non station systems. as mentioned by many others, this is what the ship currently excels at. until a meaningful revamp in done, please don't hinder its current role.

This is a succinct summary of the essence of the rorqual.

CCP may have envisioned it to fit a certain role, but more often than not, players will find a better use. Emergent gameplay is pretty cool.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Lord Battlestar
CALIMA COLLABORATIVE
Atrox Urbanis Respublique Abundatia
#512 - 2014-10-10 02:55:03 UTC
Now that my JF is not totally useless I am feeling much less apprehensive about the patch. Though seeing my two carriers and dread becoming shiny ornaments still depresses me somewhat.

I once podded myself by blowing a huge fart.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Fraternity.
#513 - 2014-10-10 02:56:06 UTC
Querns wrote:
Iosue wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Querns wrote:
Is trading the drone damage bonus on rorqs for 10LY max range in the interim, before you do a proper balance pass on rorquals, something you all are willing to do?


Happy to discuss it, yes :)


excellent!

i've owned a rorq for years and have never used or considered using the drone damage bonus. i have used it extensively to manage npc null pos's. the ability to add a mwd and improve its crusing speed makes it attractive to use when jumping into non station systems. as mentioned by many others, this is what the ship currently excels at. until a meaningful revamp in done, please don't hinder its current role.

This is a succinct summary of the essence of the rorqual.

CCP may have envisioned it to fit a certain role, but more often than not, players will find a better use. Emergent gameplay is pretty cool.


Like using JFs to stockpile doctrine ships and then having everyone use haulers and take JB's unimpeded of power projection changes amirite? #Metamergent

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny
Arch Stanton's Neighbour
Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
#514 - 2014-10-10 02:56:44 UTC
I read all of the OP and I didn't find where they gave up on the stupidest of ideas, fatigue, and yet people are saying that they listened... Listened to what? Certainly not to the 7000+ posts crying over this pile of dung you're calling an expansion..
Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#515 - 2014-10-10 02:56:52 UTC
Kossaw wrote:
Querns wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Querns wrote:


Get some actual math on JB wreathes vs interceptors and maybe this conversation has merit. Even still, interceptors are a sight safer.


Here's some math for you:

Right now people travel via jump bridges because they are the fastest most efficient way to move around their empire. This change would have added choice to that, they wouldn't have been the fastest but they'd been the safest.

Now, 30 minutes of skill training puts bridges right back as the best possible means of travel.

You have zero need of math to see that a ship that has to take gates, even a fast aligning frigate thats bubble immune, is slower than a pos that shoots you across a region and lands you in the lowsec outgate system.

Actually, I do. :sun:

Okay, so it turns out the math is pretty easy if you have the power of GTS.

WHY THE THEORY OF TRAVEL INDUSTRIAL POWER PROJECTION IS BASICALLY BULLCRAP


So to standardize the route (and keep it firmly in grr goons territory) we are going to use YA0 to F2O as our route. It covers a pretty good portion of the map.

CONTESTANT ONE: THE CRUSADER

Here's the route a crusader takes. Note that it might be a slightly larger number of gates due to GTS's feature for optimizing for warp distance at the cost of using more gates.

http://i.imgur.com/ahBf9Iq.png

Down at the bottom we see it's 49 jumps, taking 30 minutes. Note that GTS does not allow you to use implants or rigs to increase your warp speed, so this is a bog-standard, unfit interceptor.

CONTESTANT TWO: THE TRAVEL FIT WREATHE

Now, using our jump bridge network, a wreathe spends 16 minutes warping, but it has to take NINE jump bridges. Since you can't "blitz" this (the maximum number of jumps you can perform is six before your fatigue starts making your cooldown longer than five minutes,) this means that you spend a minimum of 45 minutes waiting for your fatigue to wear off. This means the wreathes take 1 hour to complete the same route.

I dunno about you, but I'll take half the time and immune to bubbles any day.


Last time I checked you couldnt fit a packed megathron in the cargo bay of your interceptor.


You can't fit a packed Megathron to any of those ~travel fit short train power projection industrials~, such as the Wreathe fit that was shared here either. That concern is completely without merit.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#516 - 2014-10-10 02:58:44 UTC
These capital ship changes still seem extreme with a 5yl limit with max skills makes it feel like its even too short as it will be difficult to make a capital ship 5ly since many distances are so long that a carrier might be only able to jump 2-3 systems and it will be left at mere convenience that you can take a 2-3 jump cyno or you can just jump through a gate with a scout like how many people already do it with non-capital ships

I wish instead of a 5ly limit on capitals it'd be ok at a mere 7.5 as thats still an incredible nerf from what they can do now, a 2.5ly base range with only 20% to JDC makes a base carrier's jump drive useless for such an incredible nearly 1 month skill just to gain what seems to be all but mild increase in range.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#517 - 2014-10-10 02:59:15 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:

Like using JFs to stockpile doctrine ships and then having everyone use haulers and take JB's unimpeded of power projection changes amirite? #Metamergent

Hey, I'm with you on the JF thing. Increasing the range of the JF to 10LY was a mistake -- I'd much rather see it remain at 5LY.

And, again, interceptors are better than haulers at traveling~

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Hendrick Tallardar
Doomheim
#518 - 2014-10-10 03:02:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Hendrick Tallardar
Alp Khan wrote:


You can't fit a packed Megathron to any of those ~travel fit short train power projection industrials~, such as the Wreathe fit that was shared here either. That concern is completely without merit.


My understanding, as a person with no individual thought because I'm not part of your player group, was that it wasn't an issue of "you can move ships so much faster" but more so "you can move your character in that ship across half the galactic map with little to no fatigue due to the 90% or so fatigue reduction T1 haulers get."

The ability to be staged out of say, Delve, and use a JB network + the T1 industrial to jump all the way up to say Venal (or whatever that V region in the north is) with no fatigue penalty is rather dumb.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#519 - 2014-10-10 03:02:20 UTC
Querns wrote:
Iosue wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Querns wrote:
Is trading the drone damage bonus on rorqs for 10LY max range in the interim, before you do a proper balance pass on rorquals, something you all are willing to do?


Happy to discuss it, yes :)


excellent!

i've owned a rorq for years and have never used or considered using the drone damage bonus. i have used it extensively to manage npc null pos's. the ability to add a mwd and improve its crusing speed makes it attractive to use when jumping into non station systems. as mentioned by many others, this is what the ship currently excels at. until a meaningful revamp in done, please don't hinder its current role.

This is a succinct summary of the essence of the rorqual.

CCP may have envisioned it to fit a certain role, but more often than not, players will find a better use. Emergent gameplay is pretty cool.

Emerge with 5ly

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#520 - 2014-10-10 03:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Querns wrote:
Manfred Sideous wrote:

Like using JFs to stockpile doctrine ships and then having everyone use haulers and take JB's unimpeded of power projection changes amirite? #Metamergent

Hey, I'm with you on the JF thing. Increasing the range of the JF to 10LY was a mistake -- I'd much rather see it remain at 5LY.

And, again, interceptors are better than haulers at traveling~


With these changes, taking a gate will be far faster at traveling distances than a jump drive purely on the basis of such an incredibly small range with a fatigue timer

the example is right, an interceptor with the similar warp speeds as the wreathe will beat the wreathe always when the wreathe gets an ability to take a covops cyno has been make 100% useless

His example isn't wrong you're literally taking the role bonus a covops ship has to take a covops to travel long distances is being made useless because of the short range and fatigue timers it will always be faster to take a gate in all circumstances

exchange "wreathe" with "prowler"