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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

First post First post First post
Author
Polo Marco
Four Winds
#221 - 2014-10-09 20:09:07 UTC
Vhaine Vhindiscar wrote:
The whole fatigue thing still sounds over complex, opaque, annoying to implement, and frustrating to track. Now you're having to go back and make exception after exception. I'd really just prefer you take the entire concept back to the drawing board. Nerfing combat capital jump drives and adding a jump timer just sounds so much easier then all of this. I feel like 5 years from now someone will just be cleaning all this messy crap up. It's just uselessly complex for what it offers.




There's too much collateral damage here.

1) More grinding, more egg timers. Fun factor = 0. Is this really necessary?

2) The massive revocation of training time value. Players spent a year's training time to ride a HORSE, not a TURTLE.

3) Small player entities still take the brunt of the nerf hammer. You SAID it was to help them.......

4)Economic mayhem. The markets were getting closer and closer to be truly competitive. Big Bloc ability to leverage supply just got a new lease on life.




We all see what you are trying to do, and most of us want you to succeed. It's never too late to go back and find a better way. It will be a lot easier on you if you do it NOW instead of ending up later shaking your head and looking down at Humpty-Dumpty.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#222 - 2014-10-09 20:10:06 UTC
Is anything happening to prevent supercaps being virtually invulnerable on low-sec gates? Currently the only way to tackle them requires a lock, and without non-targeted interdiction they're easily capable of jumping through a gate then jumping out.
Ripard Teg
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#223 - 2014-10-09 20:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Ripard Teg
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Ripard Teg wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
  • The ease of nullsec logistics permitted by jump freighters and, to a lesser extent, jump bridge networks is not aligned with where we would like nullsec industry to be.
  • It *is*, however, pretty well aligned with where nullsec industry is right now. As we improve the status quo for industry in nullsec, we will want to reevaluate this balance, along with the impact potential changes would have on logistical work for other areas of the game.
Just to be clear: the combination of these two statements seem to say that the JF range change is likely to be a temporary compromise fix while you put phases 2 and 3 of your plan into effect. And that once more of the overall plan is in place, the range of JFs is then likely to be reduced.

Is that more or less accurate with the information you have today?


That's broadly in alignment with our current position, yes. We would like to reach a point where JF power can be significantly curtailed without causing massive problems, at which point we would be minded to do so.


Thankee sai.

aka Jester, who apparently was once Deemed Worthy To Wield The Banhammer to good effect.

Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#224 - 2014-10-09 20:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
Thanks Greyscale, I understand your concern with depopulating nullsec by making large areas untenable in the near term. I still think you could remove or reduce the -90% fatigue bonus from JFs to make people meaningfully choose between them and freighters/transports, without killing vast areas.


On a separate point, this reddit thread (http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2ipkzo/phoebetest_apexforce_post_phoebe_alive_fast/) has analysed and tested supercapital movement and concluded it will still potentially be too fast to project over long distances.

I dont really agree with the assumptions they made and think it will be easier said than done in practice, but would you consider removing the ability of Supercaps/caps to use smuggler gates (only)? This would give eve a LOT more geography and would be an easy fix for any extremes of projection using jump gates.
Pen Ris
Eden Risk Management
#225 - 2014-10-09 20:12:19 UTC
*resubs JFer account*

The nerf is still a shame, but at least we only need 1 more cyno and 11 more minutes; rather than 4 more cyno alts and +31 minutes. I guess there won't be time to play the LoL mini-game between jumps in Phoebe.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#226 - 2014-10-09 20:13:26 UTC
Veskrashen wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Evelgrivion wrote:
Well... where do you want nullsec industry to be?

Somewhere where we feel comfortable nerfing JFs further :P We're not in a position to discuss details right now, but people building a significant percentage of their basic needs on-site without relying on JF chains is likely to figure in the final intention.

Does this mean actually building a significant percentage or capable of building a significant percentage based on locally sourced goods or raw materials reasonably imported from Empire?

Otherwise, folks will just keep importing finished goods and no nerf ever comes.


If part of the goal is for people to not have to rely on large-scale JF usage, then changing it in a way that it still relies on JFs isn't meeting that goal.

Vesan Terakol wrote:
I want to raise a question about the Prospect - would it be treated as industrial (90% reduction) or covert (50% reduction) ship in therms of fatigue?


Not designated as a hauler so not getting the industrial bonus; can use covert portal so will get 50% bonus while using covert portal.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#227 - 2014-10-09 20:14:30 UTC
xttz wrote:
Is anything happening to prevent supercaps being virtually invulnerable on low-sec gates? Currently the only way to tackle them requires a lock, and without non-targeted interdiction they're easily capable of jumping through a gate then jumping out.


Discussing it.

Lallante wrote:
Thanks Greyscale, I understand your concern with depopulating nullsec by making large areas untenable in the near term. I still think you could remove or reduce the -90% fatigue bonus from JFs to make people meaningfully choose between them and freighters/transports, without killing vast areas.


On a separate point, this reddit thread (http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2ipkzo/phoebetest_apexforce_post_phoebe_alive_fast/) has analysed and tested supercapital movement and concluded it will still potentially be too fast to project over long distances.

I dont really agree with the assumptions they made and think it will be easier said than done in practice, but would you consider removing the ability of Supercaps/caps to use smuggler gates (only)? This would give eve a LOT more geography and would be an easy fix for any extremes of projection using jump gates.


See post earlier in the thread and edit to OP; we have solutions in mind, not allowing access to some gates is not high up our list.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#228 - 2014-10-09 20:14:44 UTC
Very very nice adjustments, all good now IMHO.

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Larkonis Trassler
Doctrine.
FEARLESS.
#229 - 2014-10-09 20:15:04 UTC
If JFs are getting 10LY jump range their fatigue bonus shouldn't be as substantial as 90% (Maybe 50% like blops).

As for applying the cooldown bonus to other industrials... For most veteran players training for an Orca is trivial (as is the expense) and allows you to move 3-4 fitted and rigged cruiser hulls. It should by rights only apply to blockade runners and only if they are using covert portals.
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#230 - 2014-10-09 20:15:17 UTC
@CCP


Most people don't understand the roadmap. They can't fill in the blanks even though some have been able to for a long time P. I think it would make things so much better for one of you or Seagull to reiterate the roadmap. To fill in some of the holes. You don't have to give particulars or dates but I think it will pay dividends on community relations. If everyone was able to understand what some of us do people would be more receptive. I don't have any special or privileged knowledge of the roadmap for instance. However , I have listened carefully and considered what would fundamentally change Eve and make it a more exciting healthier place. Once you have done that it's easy to see what will be done. So far i'm batting a 1000. So please I implore you to give consideration to talking more about the roadmap and the steps that will reach the destination.

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Zhul Chembull
Universalis Imperium
The Bastion
#231 - 2014-10-09 20:15:27 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Wrik Hoover wrote:
ok

cool


I can deal with that, thank you for coming to a balance. Us industrialist just wanted to be able to move our goods. I have to fork out cash for a JF but I can deal with that.
Lallante
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#232 - 2014-10-09 20:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Lallante
I think unless some change is made to JF's ability to hold packaged ships, fast deployment of t3 cruiser, hac and frigate fleets by JF is going to be a real problem.

Similarly, using Orcas.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#233 - 2014-10-09 20:16:25 UTC  |  Edited by: TrouserDeagle
CCP Greyscale wrote:
xttz wrote:
Is anything happening to prevent supercaps being virtually invulnerable on low-sec gates? Currently the only way to tackle them requires a lock, and without non-targeted interdiction they're easily capable of jumping through a gate then jumping out.


Discussing it.

Lallante wrote:
Thanks Greyscale, I understand your concern with depopulating nullsec by making large areas untenable in the near term. I still think you could remove or reduce the -90% fatigue bonus from JFs to make people meaningfully choose between them and freighters/transports, without killing vast areas.


On a separate point, this reddit thread (http://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/2ipkzo/phoebetest_apexforce_post_phoebe_alive_fast/) has analysed and tested supercapital movement and concluded it will still potentially be too fast to project over long distances.

I dont really agree with the assumptions they made and think it will be easier said than done in practice, but would you consider removing the ability of Supercaps/caps to use smuggler gates (only)? This would give eve a LOT more geography and would be an easy fix for any extremes of projection using jump gates.


See post earlier in the thread and edit to OP; we have solutions in mind, not allowing access to some gates is not high up our list.


in your discussions about catching supercaps, please look at web-warping and mwd-warping. in addition to being immune to everything, most lowsec supers are brought down to a 10 second align time, instead of the 30 or so that they're supposed ot have.

(web warping in general obviously, not on supers. mwd cloak warp as well).
xttz
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#234 - 2014-10-09 20:17:13 UTC
Ripard Teg wrote:

Poor man's version? Caches of MWD cloaky Epithals in the corp hangar at source and destination stations on the JB network.


If only there was some drawback to this... perhaps CCP could make these t1 haulers incredibly vulnerable somehow when using gates or when they're >50km from a pos shield...
Belinda HwaFang
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#235 - 2014-10-09 20:17:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Belinda HwaFang
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

We've collected, parsed and thoroughly discussed your *extensive* feedback on the proposed long-distance travel changes, both in the official thread and elsewhere, consulted with the CSM, and made adjustments accordingly.

Conclusions we have reached through this exercise:
[list]
  • The ease of nullsec logistics permitted by jump freighters and, to a lesser extent, jump bridge networks is not aligned with where we would like nullsec industry to be.
  • It *is*, however, pretty well aligned with where nullsec industry is right now. As we improve the status quo for industry in nullsec, we will want to reevaluate this balance, along with the impact potential changes would have on logistical work for other areas of the game.



  • Don't you see that by bowing to pressure from the renter serf and lord accounts that this means it is even less likely that Nullsec industry takes off? Remember your goal was to make the universe bigger, and to make it a meaningful decision to live in Omist, instead of it just being yet another convenient region to rent.

    I can see that there is a potential problem with the way T2 resources are spread out for nullsec self-sufficiency, and if this is the only reason you are watering down your nerf so much for JF's and titan bridged freighters, then so be it, but please get working on a new moon system so that we can have the original planned changes in all their glory.

    By keeping JF's at 10 , and buffing groups that can just bridge freighters around you just destroy any chance of nullsec industry taking off. People will just continue to stock nullsec from Jita and the industry game continues to stagnate, not to mention the already noted potential to deploy HAC / T3 fleets quickly across the universe with a JF + pods in ceptors.

    Why the random nerf to the rorqual btw? I know we've been waiting for a Rorqual update for years but since the ship isn't being used how you originally imagined it (in a belt, tractoring jetcans, crushing ore etc) you just decide to nerf it because the players are using it as a hauler? Why not wait until you have the new rorqual redesign ready and nerf it then?

    Do the right thing CCP Greyscale, do what is right in terms of game design, not what those who control the CSM are crying out for.

    --
    Fang
    Adrie Atticus
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #236 - 2014-10-09 20:18:06 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    xttz wrote:
    Is anything happening to prevent supercaps being virtually invulnerable on low-sec gates? Currently the only way to tackle them requires a lock, and without non-targeted interdiction they're easily capable of jumping through a gate then jumping out.


    Discussing it.


    I genuinely hope your marketing people explained to you how you can either gain or lose customers if you fiddle with their supers to the point of them being useless versus them having a use outside of massive fleets?
    Zhul Chembull
    Universalis Imperium
    The Bastion
    #237 - 2014-10-09 20:19:34 UTC
    Belinda HwaFang wrote:
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    Hi everyone,

    We've collected, parsed and thoroughly discussed your *extensive* feedback on the proposed long-distance travel changes, both in the official thread and elsewhere, consulted with the CSM, and made adjustments accordingly.

    Conclusions we have reached through this exercise:
    [list]
  • The ease of nullsec logistics permitted by jump freighters and, to a lesser extent, jump bridge networks is not aligned with where we would like nullsec industry to be.
  • It *is*, however, pretty well aligned with where nullsec industry is right now. As we improve the status quo for industry in nullsec, we will want to reevaluate this balance, along with the impact potential changes would have on logistical work for other areas of the game.



  • Don't you see that by bowing to pressure from the renter serf and lord accounts that this means it is even less likely that Nullsec industry takes off? Remember your goal was to make the universe bigger, and to make it a meaningful decision to live in Omist, instead of it just being yet another convenient region to rent.

    I can see that there is a potential problem with the way T2 resources are spread out for nullsec self-sufficiency, and if this is the only reason you are watering down your nerf so much for JF's and titan bridged freighters, then so be it, but please get working on a new moon system so that we can have the original planned changes in all their glory.

    By keeping JF's at 10 , and buffing groups that can just bridge freighters around you just destroy any chance of nullsec industry taking off. People will just continue to stock nullsec from Jita and the industry game continues to stagnate.

    Why the random nerf to the rorqual btw? I know we've been waiting for a Rorqual update for years but since the ship isn't being used how you originally imagined it (in a belt, tractoring jetcans, crushing ore etc) you just decide to nerf it because the players are using it as a hauler? Why not wait until you have the new rorqual redesign ready and nerf it then?

    Do the right thing CCP Greyscale, do what is right in terms of game design, not what those who control the CSM are crying out for.

    --
    Fang



    Just get into the business of industry for awhile. Everyone forgets all those T2 goodies, hulls and supplies that areas depend on are supplied by us "renters", "carebears" or whatever name you would like to label us. This is still a hell of a nerf for rorqual pilots. Going to be tough as hell to get it out of null once its there.
    Evelgrivion
    Origin.
    WE FORM V0LTA
    #238 - 2014-10-09 20:19:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Evelgrivion
    I suspect that people invested in Industry would be much more comfortable with operating from Nullsec if Blockade Runners, or perhaps other ships, through some sort of game mechanic, could dock at any outpost of their choosing, regardless of standings.
    Lallante
    Blue Republic
    RvB - BLUE Republic
    #239 - 2014-10-09 20:20:06 UTC
    CCP Greyscale wrote:
    xttz wrote:
    Is anything happening to prevent supercaps being virtually invulnerable on low-sec gates? Currently the only way to tackle them requires a lock, and without non-targeted interdiction they're easily capable of jumping through a gate then jumping out.


    Discussing it.


    A possible solution to this would be an alternative dictor bubble probe that is useable in lowsec but only blocks capitals jumping out to cynos, not warping.
    Adrie Atticus
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #240 - 2014-10-09 20:20:40 UTC
    Evelgrivion wrote:
    I suspect that people invested in Industry would be much more comfortable with operating from Nullsec if Blockade Runners, or perhaps other ships, through some sort of game mechanic, could dock at any outpost of their choosing, regardless of standings.


    That is an open invitation to hobojam every single station in the universe.