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[Phoebe] Long Distance Travel Changes - updates!

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Author
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
The Celestial Empire
#2061 - 2014-11-11 10:03:53 UTC
Jean Luc Lemmont wrote:
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Avalloc wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
His mutterings stopped at some point


Ahem. As one that "mutters" I have a question.

Has anyone proposed having characters designate a "home region" where jump fatigue isn't generated? This could have at least a multiple month reset timer so changing couldn't be exploited.



Not bad, but this still goes back to the fact that the nerf idea was crap to begin with if we have to start looking for ways to make it less crappy. We should stop trying to mitigate CCP's bad behavior and just unite in an all out assault to try and get it repealed so that they can fix the stuff that is truly broken. SOV


The fact that people are trying to mitigate this nerf is not an indication that the nerf was crap - it's an indication that they refuse to adapt to the new conditions, nothing more.



Your premise is completely wrong. If you make a change under the guise that it is a good thing and then have to start making changes to it..you might want to rethink the change

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
The Celestial Empire
#2062 - 2014-11-11 10:09:02 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Avalloc wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
His mutterings stopped at some point


Ahem. As one that "mutters" I have a question.

Has anyone proposed having characters designate a "home region" where jump fatigue isn't generated? This could have at least a multiple month reset timer so changing couldn't be exploited.



Not bad, but this still goes back to the fact that the nerf idea was crap to begin with if we have to start looking for ways to make it less crappy. We should stop trying to mitigate CCP's bad behavior and just unite in an all out assault to try and get it repealed so that they can fix the stuff that is truly broken. SOV


The Jita monument awaits your attention.



The Jita monument can go **** itself for all I care. You chuckleheads still refrain from seeing the fact that hundreds of thousands of players trained into a ship class over years only to have it emasculated by a bunch of socialist neophytes that brought you captains quarters. You tell me that its all good.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

Phaade
Surreptitious Technologies
Shadow Ultimatum
#2063 - 2014-11-11 15:17:05 UTC
Because it's cool that a capital ship can cross the universe in 7 minutes.

Because it's cool that a fleet of capital ships can cross the universe in 7 minutes, and drop on some poor ratter. Or utterly ruin an otherwise good fight.

No, that **** sucked.

This change is good. Great, in fact. Quit your bitching and adapt to a better game.
Niskin
League of the Lost
#2064 - 2014-11-11 16:29:23 UTC
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Your premise is completely wrong. If you make a change under the guise that it is a good thing and then have to start making changes to it..you might want to rethink the change


Maybe you aren't aware but when CCP makes a change they almost always adjust it in some way. This is because they can't always predict how the players will adapt to the change or how much impact the change will have. They make changes with the benefit of hindsight because foresight only shows them so much of the picture. To be clear, the goal is the good thing, the changes get them as close as possible to the goal, but sometimes it takes some correction afterwards to get there.

Easthir Ravin wrote:
The Jita monument can go **** itself for all I care. You chuckleheads still refrain from seeing the fact that hundreds of thousands of players trained into a ship class over years only to have it emasculated by a bunch of socialist neophytes that brought you captains quarters. You tell me that its all good.


It's all good. You were clearly too attached to your ship class and extensive skill training. You should thank CCP for cutting the cord for you. Welcome to New Eden, it turns out there are other ships besides capitals here, who knew?

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2065 - 2014-11-11 18:13:53 UTC
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Easthir Ravin wrote:
Avalloc wrote:
Alavaria Fera wrote:
His mutterings stopped at some point


Ahem. As one that "mutters" I have a question.

Has anyone proposed having characters designate a "home region" where jump fatigue isn't generated? This could have at least a multiple month reset timer so changing couldn't be exploited.



Not bad, but this still goes back to the fact that the nerf idea was crap to begin with if we have to start looking for ways to make it less crappy. We should stop trying to mitigate CCP's bad behavior and just unite in an all out assault to try and get it repealed so that they can fix the stuff that is truly broken. SOV


The Jita monument awaits your attention.



The Jita monument can go **** itself for all I care. You chuckleheads still refrain from seeing the fact that hundreds of thousands of players trained into a ship class over years only to have it emasculated by a bunch of socialist neophytes that brought you captains quarters. You tell me that its all good.

cuz everyone else had to live with the people who flew capital ships showing up from half-way across the cluster just to whore on your mails. Capitals should have never been that powerful to begin with.

I trained for capitals for a long time too, and I'm happy with the changes.
Jocky Wilson
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#2066 - 2014-11-11 19:08:00 UTC
I approve of the changes, but could you please take a look at the docking range of some of the stations in lowsec . I have just returned after an unsub and would like to slowly start moving a carrier from southern to northern lowsec, however its impossible to do so without jumping to a particular station that has a 3k docking range. I have spent a good 2 hours playing about with Dotlan, have given up on the idea and will now have to sell my carrier. I may not bother buying another.

Sorry for posting with an alt, but I hate Forums.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#2067 - 2014-11-11 21:56:34 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:

It's not CCP's fault one group of players decided to hedge their bets on what everyone with half a brain could see would be deemed unbalanced the instant it began prolifering. I called it fairly quickly, but Grath kept muttering about how it was "the counter to blobs", and "we're fewer, so we have to use this tactic to win, and it's our right since we have more SP than you".


Did anyone ever ask him publicly what his plan was when the "average" of his enemy would have slowly skilled up to capital ship level of SP and if yes, what was his answer?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2068 - 2014-11-12 09:24:20 UTC
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Queen Lenore wrote:
Unintended consequence (or maybe it was CCP's intention to move small corps out of null sec). Now that its nearly impossible to move ships into deep null sec, small corps without the massive logistics machines that large alliances have, are being forced back to empire.

Just like all regulation, make it sound like its for the little guys while making it easier for rich and powerful to circumvent it.


Whatever the change, the rich and the powerful will be at an advantage.

Always.



Unless you are talking about the October Revolution (Communist revolution in Russia :P )

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#2069 - 2014-11-12 09:30:39 UTC
Niskin wrote:
you can't hurt the big guy without hurting the little guy because the big guy is a just a bunch of little guys banded together. If it was easy for you to live in deep null then it would be easy for anybody else to come kick you out of deep null. We're all using the same game mechanics here.
.



You can, you just need to do more well tougth mechanics that focus on the real things that big guys have.


Example? Manteinance fee on a station, that increases as 1.05^(number of pilots with docking rights on this station), per month Simple.. if you want a coalition with huge number of blues, you will pay ABSURD amounts of money for your stations.

Don't believe me.. run the numbers.... Suddenly you would never see alliances with more than 500 players and blues combined.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2070 - 2014-11-12 11:40:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Kagura Nikon wrote:

You can, you just need to do more well tougth mechanics that focus on the real things that big guys have.


Example? Manteinance fee on a station, that increases as 1.05^(number of pilots with docking rights on this station), per month Simple.. if you want a coalition with huge number of blues, you will pay ABSURD amounts of money for your stations.

Don't believe me.. run the numbers.... Suddenly you would never see alliances with more than 500 players and blues combined.

That's called micro managing. Politics is targeting benefits for your friends at the expense of your foes by crafting laws which discriminate between them. It usually doesn't work because your friends and enemies usually change their tactics over time in response to politics.

Quote:
I approve of the changes, but could you please take a look at the docking range of some of the stations in lowsec . I have just returned after an unsub and would like to slowly start moving a carrier from southern to northern lowsec, however its impossible to do so without jumping to a particular station that has a 3k docking range. I have spent a good 2 hours playing about with Dotlan, have given up on the idea and will now have to sell my carrier. I may not bother buying another.

Sorry for posting with an alt, but I hate Forums.

Another capital pilot who claims to like the changes but as a result will no longer be a capital pilot. Which makes him a subcap pilot liking the changes..

Quote:
cuz everyone else had to live with the people who flew capital ships showing up from half-way across the cluster just to ***** on your mails. Capitals should have never been that powerful to begin with.

I trained for capitals for a long time too, and I'm happy with the changes.

The power of instant travel. The change which allows instant travel across 5 ly still and really screws with travel in a really complicated manner after that.

Quote:
Maybe you aren't aware but when CCP makes a change they almost always adjust it in some way. This is because they can't always predict how the players will adapt to the change or how much impact the change will have. They make changes with the benefit of hindsight because foresight only shows them so much of the picture. To be clear, the goal is the good thing, the changes get them as close as possible to the goal, but sometimes it takes some correction afterwards to get there.

The definition of micromanagement. When you setup a sandbox with general rules, the open play allows for some very interesting stories. When try to micromanage and control players, you end up with a dictatorship, and really pretty boring stories. Is it still a sandbox when a parent shows up and controls when any of the kids can breathe or wiggle or move their ship? Seems more like detention on a sand floor to me. Down with the dictatorship and the strict behavior watching and control!

Quote:
Because it's cool that a capital ship can cross the universe in 7 minutes.

Because it's cool that a fleet of capital ships can cross the universe in 7 minutes, and drop on some poor ratter. Or utterly ruin an otherwise good fight.

No, that **** sucked.

This change is good. Great, in fact. Quit your bitching and adapt to a better game.

It does suck to have all that instant capital dropping. This changes still allows that over 5 ly. Travel time is a good idea. This change does not use travel time. But yes, we do need travel time instead of this change.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2071 - 2014-11-12 11:55:04 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:

It's not CCP's fault one group of players decided to hedge their bets on what everyone with half a brain could see would be deemed unbalanced the instant it began prolifering. I called it fairly quickly, but Grath kept muttering about how it was "the counter to blobs", and "we're fewer, so we have to use this tactic to win, and it's our right since we have more SP than you".


Did anyone ever ask him publicly what his plan was when the "average" of his enemy would have slowly skilled up to capital ship level of SP and if yes, what was his answer?

The only thing I remember him saying when confronted with anything related to this was how I just wanted to nerf capitals to bolster the CFC's dominance, and that I was being ******** and ignorant about capital warfare. I don't remember him actually talking that much about what would actually happen if we were to actually counter their number of titans etc, all I really remember was him saying I was just being ******** and ignorant about how capital warfare worked, and something about there having to be end-game content for old pilots.

Presumably he's either been hoping we would never actually nut up and engage their titans on equal terms, or that they would keep the upper hand in the arms race until the end of time, or maybe he just wanted to keep his edge for as long as he could. I don't know.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2072 - 2014-11-12 13:00:46 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
The power of instant travel. The change which allows instant travel across 5 ly still and really screws with travel in a really complicated manner after that.
Oh really? Why dont you go ahead and show me how you have managed to move your carrier anything greater than 5 LY in less than 5 minutes ofter the change. And before you say anything, I didnt care about a neighbor dropping me or the locals swinging by. I specifically mentioned half-way across the cluster.
Quote:
The definition of micromanagement. When you setup a sandbox with general rules, the open play allows for some very interesting stories. When try to micromanage and control players, you end up with a dictatorship, and really pretty boring stories. Is it still a sandbox when a parent shows up and controls when any of the kids can breathe or wiggle or move their ship? Seems more like detention on a sand floor to me. Down with the dictatorship and the strict behavior watching and control!
I'll say it again, you're delusional. What kind of sandbox is it when only 2 kids get to have shovels and fling sand at anyone and everyone who even pokes their head to close? Your analogies are based on the assumption that any rules at all inside make it un-sandbox. So apprrently a 14LY jumpdrive to begin with wasn't a sandbox even then.
Quote:
It does suck to have all that instant capital dropping. This changes still allows that over 5 ly. Travel time is a good idea. This change does not use travel time. But yes, we do need travel time instead of this change.
I'll ask you to show me how you have managed to get to a distance greater than 5 LY in the same time as before.

Like I said, no one cares that the local residents are dropping by to say hello. Thats perfectly fine. their talking about how easy it was to move around great distances.
Anthar Thebess
#2073 - 2014-11-12 13:38:02 UTC
Currently the issues are in the outskirt regional connections allowing fast moving of capitals on the edge of map.

I don't think that this is good, as it still makes eve small for unstoppable capital bloobs.
Those connections should be restricted to subcapitals only , also excluding the JF.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2074 - 2014-11-12 13:39:17 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
That's called micro managing. Politics is targeting benefits for your friends at the expense of your foes by crafting laws which discriminate between them. It usually doesn't work because your friends and enemies usually change their tactics over time in response to politics.

You do realize that the jump changes aren't just affecting one group, right? It's affecting the entire eve universe which aren't taking WHs or gates. So I'd love to hear how you think this is "politics" and "targeting benefits for your friends at the expense of your foes by crafting laws which discriminate between them".

I'll wait while you think up a new strawman.

Andy Landen wrote:
The power of instant travel. The change which allows instant travel across 5 ly still and really screws with travel in a really complicated manner after that.

So what you're saying is that CCP have setup rules which allow for their use in either local defense, or as a force multiplier part of a specific push on someone's border, while stopping you from travelling across the entire universe in 5 minutes?

Sounds a-ok to me.

Andy Landen wrote:
The definition of micromanagement. When you setup a sandbox with general rules, the open play allows for some very interesting stories. When try to micromanage and control players, you end up with a dictatorship, and really pretty boring stories. Is it still a sandbox when a parent shows up and controls when any of the kids can breathe or wiggle or move their ship? Seems more like detention on a sand floor to me. Down with the dictatorship and the strict behavior watching and control!

Your definition on "sandbox" and "micromanagement" is hilarious. For some reason you've decided that "a sandbox" can only have new rules or new content added to it, instead of sometimes adding new content or rules, sometimes tweaking old content/rules to update them to be competitive against the new content/rules which made the old content/rules obsolete/disused because the new content/rules are so much better.

It's almost like you don't know how to maintain a game that's constantly evolving so it's actually a fun game which happens to be sandboxy (or, is an open world if you must). Next you'll say that the first iteration of PI is the only version CCP could ever let be in the game, because that's how the rules were made, including the absolute suck-assed UI. NO CHANGES ALLOWED! STOP THE MICROMANAGEMENT!!!!!!!111111eleventyoneoneone

Andy Landen wrote:
It does suck to have all that instant capital dropping. This changes still allows that over 5 ly. Travel time is a good idea. This change does not use travel time. But yes, we do need travel time instead of this change.

No, it doesn't suck to have that "instant capital dropping". It's a hell of a lot better to travel instantly and then either be able to do something, or get shot at for being in the wrong place, than your idea of "well now we'll be travelling for the next hour, go do something else while you wait". What did suck was instant capital dropping from across the map.

Next up on "things which suck, but which CCP are going to "micromanage"": Sov.
Josef Djugashvilis
#2075 - 2014-11-12 15:32:08 UTC
Dear Easthir Ravin, I have told you millions of times not to exaggerate...hundreds of thousands...

Capital ships being able to transvers the Eve unverse very quickly to hot drop cruisers, was wrong, is wrong and always will be wrong.

This is not a signature.

Niskin
League of the Lost
#2076 - 2014-11-12 16:16:32 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
"As they want" should just be a simple sandbox without game breaking elements added previously (bad decisions always complicate things). Usually, the words "unlimited" and "instant" should be considered clear indications of what exactly is breaking any new feature. Jump fatigue does not address the "instant" or the "unlimited" for single jumps. It hardly addresses only the "instant" aspect for second jumps, and in a very convoluted way at that; convoluted because the lagging bloom effect introduces unnecessary and micromanaging complexity of scripting player travel by saying, "well, you can jump after 6 minutes if you want the fatigue to bloom to 45 minutes, or you can wait 45 min and then start jump with zero fatigue. and so on, iteratively and exponenetially"


I had to go back and find this quote because it was the beginning of me understanding why Andy doesn't understand. For a guy who is rightly suggesting we find the root cause and fix that, he doesn't seem to understand how to find a root cause.

Instant and Unlimited things aren't necessarily the problem. For example, I can instantly reprocess an unlimited amount of ore. Is that a problem that should be nerfed? Not at all, there are other mechanics which bottleneck mining and industry so that this step being quick unlimited in scale hurts nothing. The same goes for cap travel, so let me root cause it for you. To find a root cause you have to start with a root problem.

The Problem: Pilots are afraid to be out in space anywhere in the game due to fears of a hotdrop coming from literally anywhere on the map. An extension of this is that fights that could happen get avoided because: if they will hotdrop a solo cruiser they will certainly hot drop a decent fight.

The Caveat: Pilots should be afraid of being hot dropped by local entities, this should still be possible.

The Analysis: The problem lies somewhere between the intended behavior (local hot drop) and the unintended behavior (distant hot drop). To allow for one but not the other the mechanic change needs to maintain quick travel on a per jump basis, but prevent multiple successive jumps happening quickly.

To be fair that isn't the only problem the changes were trying to solve, but it is the reason we needed an obscure solution, there are upper and lower limits on the goal. This is no different than the change to sov structure HP's and resists in the same patch. HP's were lowered and resists were raised. This makes them easier to reinforce (total EHP went down) and easier to rep up (actual HP went down).

It's Dark In Here - The Lonely Wormhole Blog

Remember kiddies: the best ship in Eve is Friendship.

-MooMooDachshundCow

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2077 - 2014-11-12 16:38:26 UTC
And, if these rules had been put in back when CCP introduced capitals, along with 5LY maximum, Andy would not be complaining, because he (and others in his bloc) would not be hedging all their bets on capitals being pwnmobiles.

Good thing CCP's not working with the assumption that the first iteration is the perfect one and any overpowered mechanic can't ever be changed or it's "micromanagement" and "breaking the sandbox". EVE would be a terrible game if they had.

Well, EVE is a terrible game, but it would be a terribler (yes, that's on purpose, sue me) game with Andy's methodology.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2078 - 2014-11-12 17:13:50 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Currently the issues are in the outskirt regional connections allowing fast moving of capitals on the edge of map.

I don't think that this is good, as it still makes eve small for unstoppable capital bloobs.
Those connections should be restricted to subcapitals only , also excluding the JF.

if that were the case, it would just be long regional gates overall. some routes are faster along edge and some faster straight through the center. If we remove those gates some regions would become effective citadels with very few ways in.

Examples:
Paragon Soul/Esoteria
Branch/Tenal
Fountain (sort of)

If you don't include being within jump range then there is a whole lot more to the list. When the made eve smaller under the jump drive nerf they also managed to get 'neighboring' areas closer to each other. These gates still add tactical advantage, but don't make a huge difference in travel time really. We wanted caps moving as fast as sub caps (again, kind of) and we got that.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2079 - 2014-11-13 11:42:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Lord TGR wrote:
[1]
You do realize that the jump changes aren't just affecting one group, right? It's affecting the entire eve universe which aren't taking WHs or gates. So I'd love to hear how you think this is "politics" and "targeting benefits for your friends at the expense of your foes by crafting laws which discriminate between them".

I'll wait while you think up a new strawman.
[2]
So what you're saying is that CCP have setup rules which allow for their use in either local defense, or as a force multiplier part of a specific push on someone's border, while stopping you from travelling across the entire universe in 5 minutes?

Sounds a-ok to me.
[3]
Your definition on "sandbox" and "micromanagement" is hilarious. For some reason you've decided that "a sandbox" can only have new rules or new content added to it, instead of sometimes adding new content or rules, sometimes tweaking old content/rules to update them to be competitive against the new content/rules which made the old content/rules obsolete/disused because the new content/rules are so much better.

It's almost like you don't know how to maintain a game that's constantly evolving so it's actually a fun game which happens to be sandboxy (or, is an open world if you must). Next you'll say that the first iteration of PI is the only version CCP could ever let be in the game, because that's how the rules were made, including the absolute suck-assed UI. NO CHANGES ALLOWED! STOP THE MICROMANAGEMENT!!!!!!!111111eleventyoneoneone
[4]
Next up on "things which suck, but which CCP are going to "micromanage"": Sov.

1) CCP already "thought up" the "strawman" My best guess is that the politics involved something like this: "PL, et all capital blobbing from across the universe has risen to levels beyond which we can permit. It is time to stick it to them." The easiest way to answer the question about whether a change is political is to look at who is being affected the most by it. Obviously, the answer here is: Groups that capital blob across more than 5 ly. I hope some clear images of specific groups come to mind; PL being the leading iconic image of this over the years.

2) I love it when people try to change what others are saying by starting with the phrase: "So what you are saying is .." It doesn't change anything and it is almost never accurate. This is usually the definition of "spinning" which in itself is "politics", the art of turning people for or against policies which discriminate for some groups at the expense of others.

3) I never said anything about "new". All I said was "politics". It just so happens that new ideas do not usually attempt to favor one group at the expense of other groups, while changes usually have specific agendas along those lines. Something like: "OMG, Feature X allows groups X and Y too much power. Nerf it, quick!" Sometimes, it is true that Feature X was a bad idea, but the nerf reflex is a bad one because it ignores WHY it was bad and usually leaves the bad mechanics in the game while attempting to mask those reasons with distractions and complications. I would say that supercapitals was such an example. Sure they have been nerfed several times, but the reason why they were a bad idea has yet to be accepted. Removing supercapitals from the game is a messy solution, so the next best thing is to discover what aspects of supercapitals draws our interest in nerfing them time and again. Once those bad reasons are discovered and corrected, the other "knee-jerk" nerfs are realized to be inappropriate. I will say that the instant jump travel is one of those reasons that happens to be the same bad effect on all capital ships (not just combat capital ships) for various reasons. EWar immunity is another reason, alpha damage is another (DD), and infinite subcap bridging instant travel is yet another; and there are doubtless more reasons as well.

4) Capitals are still on the radar for their political agendas. Will sov be treated with politics? I have yet to (and may never) know. Check their ideas against who benefits and who is penalized: Will goons blobs be affected more than others with gates to sov structures that discriminate on ship type/size (already used for other political game elements) or will small but capital intensive (PL) groups be singled out with bonuses (maybe specific ship bonuses) to capital ships (ie. supercapital dps and siege mode)?

Added: If caps had been gimped in the first place, the reason I wouldn't be complaining is because I wouldn't have been attracted to training for and flying caps and therefore wouldn't have had a good reason to stay with Eve for this long. But you are right, I would not be objecting because Eve would have been down several subs a long time ago.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2080 - 2014-11-13 12:44:57 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
1) CCP already "thought up" the "strawman" My best guess is that the politics involved something like this: "PL, et all capital blobbing from across the universe has risen to levels beyond which we can permit. It is time to stick it to them." The easiest way to answer the question about whether a change is political is to look at who is being affected the most by it. Obviously, the answer here is: Groups that capital blob across more than 5 ly. I hope some clear images of specific groups come to mind; PL being the leading iconic image of this over the years.

I'm sure they've decided "capitals are being flung across the universe much too readily, time to put a stop to that". I doubt they went "well PL/NCdot/etc are doing this, therefore we must stop them", which is what you're implying. It's not CCP's fault PL etc are the main abusers of a set of game mechanics, it's PL/NCdot/etc's fault for overspecializing in something everyone who aren't dumb would see would end up changed because it became overprolific and unhealthy.

Let's pretend CCP added a debuff to the damage applied to a target if >X people shot at it at the same time. If people were to be like you, they would go "HURR CCP ARE ONLY NERFING SUBCAPS BECAUSE OF POLITICS, THEY MUST HATE THE CFC", except they'd end up nerfing large capital fights just as much, and they'd probably just want to add a mechanic to incentivize people from bringing too many people to bear on a single target at the same time. It just so happens that CFC's the main users of subcaps, doesn't automatically mean it's politics just because "subcaps were nerfed".

But then again, paranoid people tend to think differently from most people, and see conspiracies everywhere.

Andy Landen wrote:
2) I love it when people try to change what others are saying by starting with the phrase: "So what you are saying is .." It doesn't change anything and it is almost never accurate. This is usually the definition of "spinning" which in itself is "politics", the art of turning people for or against policies which discriminate for some groups at the expense of others.

So you're not saying CCP have setup rules which allow for caps' use in either local defense, or as a force multiplier part of a specific push on someone's border, while stopping you from travelling across the entire universe in 5 minutes?

Well, hate to break it to you, but that's exactly what they've done, so if you're confused about that part of the patch, you should probably read up a bit more about it, because you're apparently not aware of how the patch actually works.

Andy Landen wrote:
3) I never said anything about "new". All I said was "politics". It just so happens that new ideas do not usually attempt to favor one group at the expense of other groups, while changes usually have specific agendas along those lines. Something like: "OMG, Feature X allows groups X and Y too much power. Nerf it, quick!" Sometimes, it is true that Feature X was a bad idea, but the nerf reflex is a bad one because it ignores WHY it was bad and usually leaves the bad mechanics in the game while attempting to mask those reasons with distractions and complications. I would say that supercapitals was such an example. Sure they have been nerfed several times, but the reason why they were a bad idea has yet to be accepted. Removing supercapitals from the game is a messy solution, so the next best thing is to discover what aspects of supercapitals draws our interest in nerfing them time and again. Once those bad reasons are discovered and corrected, the other "knee-jerk" nerfs are realized to be inappropriate. I will say that the instant jump travel is one of those reasons that happens to be the same bad effect on all capital ships (not just combat capital ships) for various reasons. EWar immunity is another reason, alpha damage is another (DD), and infinite subcap bridging instant travel is yet another; and there are doubtless more reasons as well.

Drakes and missiles got fixed after we abused them for a few months. Did we run around whinging like a little beaten ***** about ebul conspiracies? No. We adopted maelstroms instead.

And "instant jump travel" isn't bad in and of itself, it's "instant jump travel across the entire universe". And guess what? That's exactly what's been nerfed.

Andy Landen wrote:
4) Capitals are still on the radar for their political agendas. Will sov be treated with politics? I have yet to (and may never) know. Check their ideas against who benefits and who is penalized: Will goons blobs be affected more than others with gates to sov structures that discriminate on ship type/size (already used for other political game elements) or will small but capital intensive (PL) groups be singled out with bonuses (maybe specific ship bonuses) to capital ships (ie. supercapital dps and siege mode)?

I think you'll find that the sov'll be dependent on activity, not brute force, if they go for the occupancy style sov system. Which, I guess, means goons'll be the main beneficiaries yet again, and the "political crusade against PL/NCdot/etc" continues.

I look forward to your rabid conspiracy theories when the time comes.