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Balancing active income (Attached with jump drive patch)

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Prince Kobol
#81 - 2014-10-09 11:50:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Mohamad Transporte wrote:
am not into wh business, as far as i know, its already balanced in the risk vs reward concept. If you have some numbers, please present here
Am comparing null to the standard no risk environment that are unbalanced

The big fights are covered by the moon and PI isk.. that is cool

but i am worried about PVE since i know as a fact that a big part of "Rich" PVE'ers are generating their isk from high sec chars which doesnt make sense.. and if u asking .. so what let them do that, i will answer back that its affecting the activity of null


HOW?!

null sec people are turning into sleeping accounts where their PVP chars are only activated in null when there is scheduled op or when a ping buzz in their jabber account. That is killing their activity instead of doing their active income using same char in null (which supposed to be lucrative in terms of isk making due to its risk)



On the flip side maybe this is how CCP wants things.

After all nothing generates more money for them then creating an environment that promotes having multiple accounts.

CCP have had years to change things in null that would mean the majority of null sec residents would not require to have an alt 's elsewhere earn isk yet then have done very little to remedy this.

I can not see this changing any time soon as if they did they run the real risk of people unsubbing some of their accounts as they would no longer be needed.

For a game which is heavily reliant on people having multiple accounts it would be suicidal introducing a mechanics that actually significantly the need for having multiple accounts.

If anything if you look at the changes they have proposed this again introduces another reason to have multiple accounts.

Maybe CCP has realised that they face a losing battle in getting new players to stay so they are just trying to come up with ways getting more money out of their dwindling existing player base.

Yeah there is a bit of tinfoil but it does seem to fit (in my head anyway) and everything CCP has done in the last 18 months or so has only reinforced my view.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#82 - 2014-10-09 12:23:57 UTC
King Fu Hostile wrote:
EVE Online true safety and security status combined table for the new or ignorant players:


1. Safest- sovereign null security space (0.0 and below)

Local chat, early warning via intel network, AFK-level PVE difficulty, botting promoted and sanctioned by alliances, empty space

2. Relatively safe- high security space (0.5 and above)

Local chat cluttered, suicide ganking, PVE requires constant docking but is easy and blitzable

3. Unsafe- low security space (0.1-0.4)

PVP area of EVE, moderately challenging PVE, active space

4. Unsafest - wormhole space (-1.0)

No local, hardest PVE that requires looting and salvaging of every wreck, no bounties, tons of bored PVP players patient enough to hunt you for hours, days and weeks


I find the rewards perfectly in balance with the risks.


I don't see how anyone could possibly believe this. How is it possible that the space with the MAGICAL SPACE POLICE is somehow safer than the space where there are no magical space police? In high sec, you only have to be able to tank something long enough for CONCORD to spawn, in null you have to run, hide or fight.\

The part about (non-FW) low sec in particular is a lie. Low sec income activities except belt ratting are done in deadspace. People NEEd probes to bring unwanted pvp on you everywhere except belt/gates/stations and if they do it on a gate or station, you get NPC gunfire support. Hell, a MWD + cloak vastly limits your danger on gates even in a ship the size of a machariel (my low sec lvl 4 mission ship of choice). lvl 5s are super safe with fighters having been buffed, you can blitz those missions will aligned to station, a station that can't have a catch bubble deployed to stop you because it's low sec.

Here is a video of a player making 300 mil per hour worth of LP while watching Asian chicks shake it on stage. 300 mil AN HOUR with an Attack Battlecrusier while watching music videos....

I tried this myself, planting a naga and a stabber fleet issue in a low sec system and doing Sisters of EVE lvl 4 missions. It was astounding and all it takes is proper standings management.

Yea, that's totally balanced, but only if you are completely unable to tell the difference between reality and fantasy. The inability of some posters to tell the truth about a video game is completely insane.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#83 - 2014-10-09 13:30:43 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:


I'm confused about this statement.. "They would inject far less isk than anoms"

With anon's there is limit on how much isk they can generate where as with missions it is technically infinite.

CCP can far more easily control anons by there re-spawn rate and only so many people can run them where as with mission you can technically have a 500 guys running them 24/7.

Then you have the LP and loot generated by missions, okay not a isk injection but still...

I admit I might be missing something but I have no idea what..


The bulk of income via missions comes in LP. Anoms inject a lot more isk per ratter than missions do, CCPs own number show as such which is why they nerfed anom income the other year.
Prince Kobol
#84 - 2014-10-09 16:09:06 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:


I'm confused about this statement.. "They would inject far less isk than anoms"

With anon's there is limit on how much isk they can generate where as with missions it is technically infinite.

CCP can far more easily control anons by there re-spawn rate and only so many people can run them where as with mission you can technically have a 500 guys running them 24/7.

Then you have the LP and loot generated by missions, okay not a isk injection but still...

I admit I might be missing something but I have no idea what..


The bulk of income via missions comes in LP. Anoms inject a lot more isk per ratter than missions do, CCPs own number show as such which is why they nerfed anom income the other year.


Interesting.. suppose you dont have numbers to hand do you, would make interesting reading, cheers
Vadeim Rizen
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2014-10-09 17:12:53 UTC
corebloodbrothers wrote:
Isk versus risk is not the determinign factor too people imo. People live in a social context wihtin eve and isk making is determined by frends, availability, preferences, skills, andd why u do what u do.

Also the numbers are questionable, billions on a maruader in high sec is common, as well as bling incursion ships, hich woudl get hunted in null. Ask frog freight guys about their isk per h, and why they still do it, same goed for alot of occupations and choices.


I am a bit puzzled as what u want to achieve, whats the underlying reason behind u pushing for a rebalance of isk versus risk in noc driven isk adventures. Do u want to push people into null bu nerfing their income? Do u feel null seccers are poor and cant make a living? , if the latter, then ask yourself why they all life there, why a sytem can be rented out for 5 billion per motnth easy, and why nullsec counts their srp in trillions.

People s choices are determined by more factors then the mentioned onces, and people are driven by other factors. Esle eveyone woudl do the same thing. Other park alts to make isk oer hour and so on.


That SRP is made from the passive income of big alliances that hold towers permanently and just throw gobs of isk into the corp/alliance wallets. Also from skimming 10% of what their hundreds of members do. Completely different than what 1 person can go out and do on their own.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#86 - 2014-10-09 22:18:38 UTC
Mohamad Transporte wrote:

================Proposed result=======================

Ignoring once again your biased start point, such a good thing that the reality is the AVERAGE income of the high sec activities you listed is actually lower normally than you posted. Since we are talking en mass results anomalous outliers are not what dictate the activities general income, otherwise we can say someone running anoms in Null that the loot fairy likes makes 500 mil/hr currently so obviously anoms need a nerf (Since people have posted longer running stats showing that they personally made that much thanks to the loot fairy)
So.... High sec needs no nerf even given the fact you deliberately biased the results towards Null, if anything the AVERAGE needs a buff.

And before Null gets the buff, first buff the number of people that can use a null system. Taking the figure of 10 people using a system per day as legit (Which I do believe given my own experience) Null can support 35,000 players per day total. If we assume that most people only play 3-4 days a week, that means null supports 70,000 players a week. Obviously a vastly too low number supportable.
Then work out how to increase income in a nice lore friendly way that doesn't destroy the isk faucet/sink balance. Since even just increasing the number of players null can support with no income buff per site/player will decrease the value of loot.

P.S. Miners should make more than peanuts. What is this constant hate on industrialist characters as compared to combat characters. It's not like Exhumers are cheap and they are vulnerable.
Krops Vont
#87 - 2014-10-10 08:17:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Krops Vont
"As you know, CCP is still hush hush about the changes"

Riiiight...

Mohamad Transporte wrote:
Income as everyone knows is classified into active and passive and is usually measured by isk per hour meter


People like to maximize ISK vs Risk usually. Fun comes in small doses when they realize they are forced to play to pay.

Mohamad Transporte wrote:
Low sec >>>AVERAGE<<<

Faction war fare: 200 mill per hour (incase u have 2 chars in opposing factions)
LvL 5 missions: 120 mill per hour


I have not done the FW or null noms that every T2 carebear has glorified but the LVL 5 is way off. You either generate ISK from a few bounties, or convert 93k LP from each mission. 500mil an hour when I did them. It took two too tengu. Or carriers and enough luck with the run in the mill pirates that you can scrape in the best known ISK in eve involved red crosses. (blue collar jobs)



Mohamad Transporte wrote:
this means that level of risk (and proposed isk per hour value taking into consideration that havens / Sanctums can be done only by a sieged Marauder or by a carrier, and Forlorn hubs can be done by faction/pirate BS))


Never tell someone what you can and can't do. Just because those work the "best", doesn't mean I can't get in and bomb sleepers with concussion manticores. Fun trumps everything.



Mohamad Transporte wrote:
After math:
Less isk per char than current with higher isk per hour for null dudes especially the high skilled ones


Hmmm. Let me think about that.

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#88 - 2014-10-11 12:36:31 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:


Interesting.. suppose you dont have numbers to hand do you, would make interesting reading, cheers


Not that I can easily find. CCP SoniClover make mention of the "insane isk generation of null NPC bounties" when they added the ESS. Back before the nerf to anoms the primary way to run them was to grab 2 or more vindi, park them in hubs and just blap your way to 160 mil/hr. CCP nerfed that fairly hard.

These days we just need to look at the rewards. Anoms payout in just isk while with missions the bulk of the payout in in LP.
Steppa Musana
Doomheim
#89 - 2014-10-12 10:45:14 UTC
ISD Ezwal wrote:
Mohamad Transporte wrote:
... Red frog do what they do because of isk per hour... and their work requires big investment (5+ bill ship) and good planning and still , the risk is there if a mistake is done
I was at Evesterdam. At a presentation given there on Red Frog Freight by Gnaeus Crassus I learned that on average a RFF pilot earns around 8 million per hour. On a good day....
So no, they do not do it for the ludicrous amounts of Isk, there are other factors why they choose that path in EvE, as corebloodbrothers quite rightfully stated (albeit in other words).

That's pretty odd. When I setup contracts with them, I'm paying 800,000 ISK a jump. If we say 2 minutes a jump in a freighter, that's 24million an hour. Not all the time is spent jumping, there are procedures, so we could cut that in HALF and it would still be 12million. I've also noticed if I setup 5 contracts, it's accepted by the same pilot most times who seemingly uses 5 different alts to deliver them at the same time.

I do question their figure of 8mil

Hey guys.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#90 - 2014-10-12 11:00:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Steppa Musana wrote:
That's pretty odd. When I setup contracts with them, I'm paying 800,000 ISK a jump. If we say 2 minutes a jump in a freighter, that's 24million an hour. Not all the time is spent jumping, there are procedures, so we could cut that in HALF and it would still be 12million. I've also noticed if I setup 5 contracts, it's accepted by the same pilot most times who seemingly uses 5 different alts to deliver them at the same time.

I do question their figure of 8mil


2 minutes/system is unachievable in the majority of the cases, considering that you need 20-40 seconds to get into warp (aligning), 40 seconds to 8 minutes to warp and another 1-2 minutes or so for deceleration/acceleration, this gets even longer when you undock from a station or if you land up to 2.5 km off a station and have to approach. (all these figures, especially the 20 second align time, are with 3 Istabs; if you have to use cargo expanders, the figure skyrockets and makes the travel longer and longer).

Your 800k ISK/jump is also not the norm. Many people pay less, a lot less. The figure revolves more around the 500k/jump region. There's only a limited number of people paying more than that; if you are among them, congratulations. However, paying 800k/jump for a contract with a collateral of 2B or more is also insolent, and there's a lot of these players as well. Then there's also those people who post packages which are split up into smaller pieces for easier hauling through dangerous territories. While there is nothing wrong with it in itself, the payment of these pieces is very lackluster in many cases as well, requiring you to transport even more billions than usual to get to 1M/jump, for instance.

What else do you need to take into consideration? Oh, right: Other people. You need to take longer routes to avoid hotspots of ganking (Isanamo, Uedama, anyone? This can reduce your 800k/jump from Jita to Minmatar space very quickly to below 500k/jump when you avoid Uedama and Balle - Colelie). Almost no contract creator takes that into consideration - instead, you are being labeled greedy and a chicken for not using the short route, not to mention a bot if you do. Also not to forget that you basically cannot haul between other hubs from Friday till Monday due to Elite PVP, unless you take immense precautions which brings me to the other kind of other players: Webbers and scouts. They basically work for free, even if they're your alts. This would also reduce your "generous" payment of 800k/jump to next to nothing if it was taken into consideration seriously.

So, in conclusion I rather question your numbers than those of RF.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#91 - 2014-10-13 00:46:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
baltec1 wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:


Interesting.. suppose you dont have numbers to hand do you, would make interesting reading, cheers


Not that I can easily find. CCP SoniClover make mention of the "insane isk generation of null NPC bounties" when they added the ESS. Back before the nerf to anoms the primary way to run them was to grab 2 or more vindi, park them in hubs and just blap your way to 160 mil/hr. CCP nerfed that fairly hard.

These days we just need to look at the rewards. Anoms payout in just isk while with missions the bulk of the payout in in LP.

22.5 Trillion a month or about 50% of the overall Isk generated in the game was the 2012-2013 figures. CCP said in the German forums Null accounted for 72% of the bounties/NPC kills (translation was a little iffy, people debated it but either way it's at least 72% of the bounties), which totalled 30 Trillion a month roughly, with an average 50 Trillion overall isk Faucets a month.

I don't have the graph for 2013-2014 to hand though I remember it coming up in one of the fanfest videos and it looked about the same as the one I do have at a cursory view. So Null probably still account for the largest single source of isk by a long way. However as Baltec said, Isk generation is only a single facet of activity income, since LP & Loot also generate isk.
(WH's are second largest isk faucet as a note averaging a very stable 10 trillion isk a month)

2012-2013 figures were the freshest figures when ESS was introduced, and are probably what Soni was talking about. ESS doesn't actually drop isk generation significantly, and adds LP on top making it more lucrative running anoms than before, not less. But without changing the amount of isk generated, or maybe very slightly decreasing it.