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Balancing active income (Attached with jump drive patch)

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Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#41 - 2014-10-08 17:50:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Mohamad Transporte wrote:
A- psychologically grinding is grinding.. its all considered pain in the brain.. however, in null u will loose you carrier in a the few seconds u remove you eyes from local or from your intel channel. So basically in high sec its only rare stupid mistakes that make u loose your ships.. where in null u will loose your 2 bill carrier due to a roaming gang/ hotdrop, awox, etc...

B- About LP business, its true, supply of LP will be lower, but not to the extent where it doubles, and even if it doubles, thats good income for high sec that i am ok with if that many people moved to null and create content for us


A) 2B+ carrier for ratting? oO the last time I checked (5 minutes ago), a standard ratting carrier was around 1.7B.

B) You mean you want more easy targets to go in, have a quick shot and gfgf in local? Or real content?

baltec1 wrote:

Its a paradox I know. The space is near worthless yet we need it if it does become worth running anoms due to the 10 pilots per system limit. If CCP somehow made the anoms worth running today then the CFC wouldn't have enough space to support even 10% of its members.


The problem here is that has not been worth anything in the past, it is not worth anything right now and will not be in the foreseeable future. You have taken that space solely to stifle competition. If you would actually want to support your members with it, you'd leave it to others to take it and try their luck in Sov 00 and have "fun fights" with them. And in the unlikely event that it actually became worth something, you could take it and would have some content for your members.

Call me idealist, but this is how I see all of the sov holders and see them fail at providing content for themselves by behaving in the way you describe it.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Prince Kobol
#42 - 2014-10-08 17:57:42 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They can use gates when that patch lands. The point I was making is that with the current income mechanics we are all forced to have huge areas of space if we want to support our members.


Support your members with empty space?


Its a paradox I know. The space is near worthless yet we need it if it does become worth running anoms due to the 10 pilots per system limit. If CCP somehow made the anoms worth running today then the CFC wouldn't have enough space to support even 10% of its members.


I have argued many times that currently even the best null sec system fully upgraded can only support 10 - 15 pilots max.

I completely agree that this forces many players to have alts else where and for coalitions to take and own huge areas of space.

However mission agents is not the answer simply because it is a source of unlimited isk in a place that for all intents and purposes is the safest space in Eve.

The other side effect I can see with agents is the amount of loot being collected and reprocessed would go to some way in lessening the need to transport materials from HS which clearly CCP does not want a null sec to be 100% self sufficient.



Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#43 - 2014-10-08 18:04:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Another thing that I don't understand is the need of people to hang out together all the time in the same systems. For ratting, you can very well go to less crowded systems to have all the anoms there for yourself. And there are a lot of systems around your (sov holder space, no one in particular) space where quite a number of nice anoms in them. Blink

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2014-10-08 18:08:17 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They can use gates when that patch lands. The point I was making is that with the current income mechanics we are all forced to have huge areas of space if we want to support our members.


Support your members with empty space?


Its a paradox I know. The space is near worthless yet we need it if it does become worth running anoms due to the 10 pilots per system limit. If CCP somehow made the anoms worth running today then the CFC wouldn't have enough space to support even 10% of its members.


I have argued many times that currently even the best null sec system fully upgraded can only support 10 - 15 pilots max.

I completely agree that this forces many players to have alts else where and for coalitions to take and own huge areas of space.

However mission agents is not the answer simply because it is a source of unlimited isk in a place that for all intents and purposes is the safest space in Eve.

The other side effect I can see with agents is the amount of loot being collected and reprocessed would go to some way in lessening the need to transport materials from HS which clearly CCP does not want a null sec to be 100% self sufficient.





Problem here is that missions offer everything needed. They would inject far less isk than anoms, they would allow us to become much smaller, they would in turn reduce the effectiveness of local intel, they scale infinatly so CCP wont have to revamp it due to overpopulation, they offer more reward than high sec and they are easy to implement.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#45 - 2014-10-08 18:09:32 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Another thing that I don't understand is the need of people to hang out together all the time in the same systems. For ratting, you can very well go to less crowded systems to have all the anoms there for yourself. And there are a lot of systems around your (sov holder space, no one in particular) space where quite a number of nice anoms in them. Blink


Only a handful of systems have anoms that are worth running thanks to the truesov system.
Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#46 - 2014-10-08 18:12:35 UTC
Where did OP learn to do math? Low Sec and Null you can clearly make a ton more per the hour assuming you are taking a PVE approach.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2014-10-08 18:16:44 UTC
Eldwinn wrote:
Where did OP learn to do math? Low Sec and Null you can clearly make a ton more per the hour assuming you are taking a PVE approach.


He said average. Even if we go with best case it is still lower than high sec unless you rat with multiple carriers.
Eldwinn
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-10-08 18:22:45 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Eldwinn wrote:
Where did OP learn to do math? Low Sec and Null you can clearly make a ton more per the hour assuming you are taking a PVE approach.


He said average. Even if we go with best case it is still lower than high sec unless you rat with multiple carriers.


I suppose that is correct. Incursions do have a bit of a high level of income with nearly no risk.
Notorious Fellon
#49 - 2014-10-08 18:49:50 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Another thing that I don't understand is the need of people to hang out together all the time in the same systems. For ratting, you can very well go to less crowded systems to have all the anoms there for yourself. And there are a lot of systems around your (sov holder space, no one in particular) space where quite a number of nice anoms in them. Blink


Only a handful of systems have anoms that are worth running thanks to the truesov system.



Agreed this is one of the core problems.

Crime, it is not a "career", it is a lifestyle.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#50 - 2014-10-08 19:10:39 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They can use gates when that patch lands. The point I was making is that with the current income mechanics we are all forced to have huge areas of space if we want to support our members.


Support your members with empty space?


Renting
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#51 - 2014-10-08 19:38:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Jenn aSide wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They can use gates when that patch lands. The point I was making is that with the current income mechanics we are all forced to have huge areas of space if we want to support our members.


Support your members with empty space?


Renting


Empty systems? Roll You don't receive rent from empty, unrented systems. Oh, and there's no renting going in Fountain or Cloud Ring, for instance, and look at the systems there.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#52 - 2014-10-08 20:47:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Its now possible to get 80 mil/hr in high sec level 3 missions.

Nerfing high sec mission income will result in a whinenought that would dwarf the jump drive rage nerf thread. While it would be enjoyable I don't see it happening. Realistically the best way to deal with this is to add mission agent mods for null outposts. Not only would they provide better income than highsec but they would also inject far less isk than anoms, will allow for much much more people to live in a single system (the current cap is 10) and would reduce local intel as a by product (more people in systems = harder to track neutrals).


so let high sec as it is (income wise) and buff anom income, its not more then fair. infact its ridiculous that you can make more then double isk in high sec then in supposedly the most dangerous space aka 0.0 what is even more odd is that WH space can make way more then what is made in incursions well you need a group sure but thats also the case with incursions

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#53 - 2014-10-08 20:55:53 UTC
Nice biased analysis. When the starting figures are wrong, the actual conclusions will also be wrong.

I'm not against a buff to the number who can live in a Null system, there should be way more anoms & sigs in all area's of space, just more sigs in high sec won't affect the top income in high sec in the current environment. Systems should feel busy with dozens upon dozens of POI at any moment in space. Not all have to be making money, some could just be pretty colours that aren't there all the time.

But trying to compare deliberately using a low cost ship in null to rat with (Ishtar) to using the most bling 5-10 billion isk pirate/t2 BS in high to mission with is obviously going to give you skewed figures. You choose not to use the fastest BS in null because of perceived risk, not a problem. But use the Ishtar in high sec also for your income figures in that case. And use the actual risk to the Ishtar in null, which is 0 if you watch local. Since it aligns fast enough.
nahjustwarpin
SUPER DUPER SPACE TRUCKS
#54 - 2014-10-08 22:41:11 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Nice biased analysis. When the starting figures are wrong, the actual conclusions will also be wrong.

I'm not against a buff to the number who can live in a Null system, there should be way more anoms & sigs in all area's of space, just more sigs in high sec won't affect the top income in high sec in the current environment. Systems should feel busy with dozens upon dozens of POI at any moment in space. Not all have to be making money, some could just be pretty colours that aren't there all the time.

But trying to compare deliberately using a low cost ship in null to rat with (Ishtar) to using the most bling 5-10 billion isk pirate/t2 BS in high to mission with is obviously going to give you skewed figures. You choose not to use the fastest BS in null because of perceived risk, not a problem. But use the Ishtar in high sec also for your income figures in that case. And use the actual risk to the Ishtar in null, which is 0 if you watch local. Since it aligns fast enough.



you obviously didn't live in null. There are ships called interceptors for catching ratters. If you lose attention to your eve client for 30 sec your ishtar or whatever can be tackled and die. that's how it is now.

And no one wil use ishtar to make calculation for income in hisec, because you don't see people doing missions in ishtars. you see them do it in faction battleships and marauders.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#55 - 2014-10-08 22:54:55 UTC
nahjustwarpin wrote:


you obviously didn't live in null. There are ships called interceptors for catching ratters. If you lose attention to your eve client for 30 sec your ishtar or whatever can be tackled and die. that's how it is now.

And no one wil use ishtar to make calculation for income in hisec, because you don't see people doing missions in ishtars. you see them do it in faction battleships and marauders.

So you are saying if you don't look at local you can die..... What a surprise. Which is.... exactly what I said but in reverse.

The point to using Ishtars to compare to in highsec is to accurately compare relative income using the same ship. Since you 'can' use Faction BS's and Marauders in Null also. The risk is admittedly significantly higher, but you are trying to compare apples & banana's here and then using that to come to erroneous conclusions.
Obviously if you run lvl 4's in a frigate it's going to be lower income also, (if not negative income) but that doesn't mean lvl 4's are negative income. Controls and standardised tests people, it's basic science. What you are trying is commonly called spin doctoring, or more accurately abusing statistics by misrepresenting them.
Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2014-10-08 22:58:28 UTC
corebloodbrothers wrote:
Isk versus risk is not the determinign factor too people imo.

I do not share your opinion, nor do my friends.

corebloodbrothers wrote:
Also the numbers are questionable, billions on a maruader in high sec is common, as well as bling incursion ships, which would get hunted in null.

First, the reason high sec-ers have expensive ships is because they are not hunted while they PVE. If there was a chance of loosing their ship it would be less blingy. Second, you would get hunted in null no matter what ship you are flying so I don't see your point.

corebloodbrothers wrote:
Ask frog freight guys about their isk per h, and why they still do it, same goed for alot of occupations and choices.

They have control over how much they charge and so they can set there own risk vs reward. PVE-ers on the other hand are told the game is about risk vs reward and yet more ratters die than incursion runners in high sec.

corebloodbrothers wrote:
I am a bit puzzled as what u want to achieve, whats the underlying reason behind u pushing for a rebalance of isk versus risk in noc driven isk adventures. Do u want to push people into null bu nerfing their income? Do u feel null seccers are poor and cant make a living? , if the latter, then ask yourself why they all life there, why a sytem can be rented out for 5 billion per motnth easy, and why nullsec counts their srp in trillions.


What he is pointing out is there is a drastic inconsistency between the risk and rewards within this game, a game built on the concept of risk and reward.
Of course it is easy for 30 active PVE ratters to pay 5 Billion a month, 166M each/month (keep in mind 5B is for one of the higher end systems, at least when I was renting).
Also, buffing ratting income helps the line members more than the Alliances (R64 and R32 moons are a big part of Alliance level income not rat bounties.)

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#57 - 2014-10-08 23:05:24 UTC
Neckbeard Nolyfe wrote:
Mohamad Transporte wrote:


Low sec >>>AVERAGE<<<

Faction war fare: 200 mill per hour (incase u have 2 chars in opposing factions)
LvL 5 missions: 120 mill per hour



You mean more like 700mil/h with current prices?


Spikes happen but I would think they don't last too long. There is definately lots of isk to be made from FW if you pay attention to "the meta".

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#58 - 2014-10-08 23:09:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Mohamad Transporte wrote:
... Red frog do what they do because of isk per hour... and their work requires big investment (5+ bill ship) and good planning and still , the risk is there if a mistake is done
I was at Evesterdam. At a presentation given there on Red Frog Freight by Gnaeus Crassus I learned that on average a RFF pilot earns around 8 million per hour. On a good day....
So no, they do not do it for the ludicrous amounts of Isk, there are other factors why they choose that path in EvE, as corebloodbrothers quite rightfully stated (albeit in other words).

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Suzuka A1
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-10-08 23:16:43 UTC
afkalt wrote:
You forgot WH.

Make enough isk there to make everything else look like mining veldspar in a noob ship.


True but WHs don't add isk into the economy and the sites in them don't continuously spawn all day long so there are limits unless you roam around.

Also, I lived in a C2 for about a month and the sites I did in there were barely enough to fuel a large pos and make a small profit.

Never forget the battle of Z9PP-H  What actually happened: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgcUwTmHY74 Battle Report: http://www.kugutsumen.com/showthread.php?42836-They-Might-Be-Giants-The-Southwest&p=497626&viewfull=1#post497626
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#60 - 2014-10-08 23:18:49 UTC
Suzuka A1 wrote:


True but WHs don't add isk into the economy and the sites in them don't continuously spawn all day long so there are limits unless you roam around.

Also, I lived in a C2 for about a month and the sites I did in there were barely enough to fuel a large pos and make a small profit.

WH's do add isk to the economy. They are actually the second largest isk faucet. The largest being null sec bounties. (Based on CCP saying last year that 72% of rats are killed in null sec and bounties being by far the largest faucet, no new figures exist on the ratio of kills)
NPC Buy orders for WH loot.