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Balancing active income (Attached with jump drive patch)

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Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#21 - 2014-10-08 12:32:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
I haven't read anything except the OP but I know this one is heading to a firestorm...shortly before it get's punted to that Dead Man's land known as "features and idea" (aka the place ideas go to die) lol.

Despite what some (particularly high sec incursion runners) think, there is a huge imbalance. It's not like you can't make isk in null, you can (and people do, the isk from anomalies is one of the highest isk faucets in the game), BUT taken as a whole, it's just that:

-you can make better isk outside of null in places and situations that are overall safer than what you can do in null

-The same or less 'capital investment' gains you better rewards outside of null than inside

-null sec systems can't support many people at all, a situation create by this mess and one that leads to Null being only worth renting. (side note, the kind of thinking displayed in the link above is the same kind of thinking being applied to the jump changes,which is why the whole venture is likely to fail and create an even worse null sec).

Taking the 1st point, Faction Warfare missions and blitzing lvl 5 missions with per-positioned carriers (declining missions that can't be done by carriers or that are not in systems where you have a carrier) is insane isk for less risk (lvl 5s) or cost (fw missions) that it takes you to make a FRACTION of the same isk in null sec. Blitzing with a carrier is supper

Blitzing High Sec lvl 3 missions will pay you only 4 million isk less than using the same hull (machariel) with a more expensive fit in null sec havens and sanctums (90 mil aka 30 mil 'ticks' every 20 minutes). So for the pain of getting a DEADSPACE fitted Mach to null and dealing with interceptor gangs and potential hotdrops, you can make a whooping FOUR MILLION ISK more per hour than just staying in high sec (protected by CONCORD) and doing missions that require you to have no tank beyond a MEDIUM ARMOR REPPER.

Which brings up the second point. Even in situations where you make less isk, your 'capital investment' will be less. My incursion Mach is cheaper (in terms of fitting) than my null sec mach that makes less isk per hour. I use a Prorator (100 mil) to safely move my incursion fit around while my mach flys to a new focus on autopilot, I have to use a CARRIER (1.5 bil just for hull) to get my mach in and out of null safely. And one of the highest isk makers in the game (faction warfare missions) only requires a Caracal or drake or stealth bomber...

To any but the most partisan, it's clear to see the wicked imbalances CCP's scattershot development plans have created. They introduce content into the game without fully considering how it will be used or how it will affect things (if they had, high sec incursions wouldn't even be a thing).

Before incursions and wormholes and 'rewards for FW', null was ok for living in terms of income. Now, it's only good in certain aspects (the liquid isk from anoms is good in that you don't have to worry about lp conversions) and overshadowed greatly by other pve income sources.
Solecist Project
#22 - 2014-10-08 12:38:43 UTC
Thinks thread will create a firestorm ...
... hasn't even read it ...
... posts unnecsessarily hugeass post creating it.

So smrt...

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Prince Kobol
#23 - 2014-10-08 13:14:41 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Its now possible to get 80 mil/hr in high sec level 3 missions.

Nerfing high sec mission income will result in a whinenought that would dwarf the jump drive rage nerf thread. While it would be enjoyable I don't see it happening. Realistically the best way to deal with this is to add mission agent mods for null outposts. Not only would they provide better income than highsec but they would also inject far less isk than anoms, will allow for much much more people to live in a single system (the current cap is 10) and would reduce local intel as a by product (more people in systems = harder to track neutrals).



I would of agreed before the massive nerf Jump range but not know.

After the patch large area's of deep null sec will be a heaven for ratters, adding mission hubs will just make it worse. CCP might as well just inject x isk in your wallets each week and have done with it.
Ruskarn Andedare
Lion Investments
#24 - 2014-10-08 13:27:48 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Its now possible to get 80 mil/hr in high sec level 3 missions.

Nerfing high sec mission income will result in a whinenought that would dwarf the jump drive rage nerf thread. While it would be enjoyable I don't see it happening. Realistically the best way to deal with this is to add mission agent mods for null outposts. Not only would they provide better income than highsec but they would also inject far less isk than anoms, will allow for much much more people to live in a single system (the current cap is 10) and would reduce local intel as a by product (more people in systems = harder to track neutrals).



I would of agreed before the massive nerf Jump range but not know.

After the patch large area's of deep null sec will be a heaven for ratters, adding mission hubs will just make it worse. CCP might as well just inject x isk in your wallets each week and have done with it.



There is still a chance of unexpected WH visits, and Wormholers can always be relied on to show up in glitzy fits to show you what you're missing out on.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#25 - 2014-10-08 13:39:29 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:

I would of agreed before the massive nerf Jump range but not know.

After the patch large area's of deep null sec will be a heaven for ratters, adding mission hubs will just make it worse. CCP might as well just inject x isk in your wallets each week and have done with it.



Then you make it impossible to shrink the two block empires in null.
Prince Kobol
#26 - 2014-10-08 13:52:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
baltec1 wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

I would of agreed before the massive nerf Jump range but not know.

After the patch large area's of deep null sec will be a heaven for ratters, adding mission hubs will just make it worse. CCP might as well just inject x isk in your wallets each week and have done with it.



Then you make it impossible to shrink the two block empires in null.


Giving mission agents in player owned Sov will not change that other then creating a method of an earning unlimited amount of isk in a place that is arguably safer then HS.

The only thing that will change the status quo is a complete redesign of Sov Mechanics.. unfortunately we all know that will never happen as CCP have proved that they have none of the required resources available to do this.

All they seem to be able to do to is randomly change some existing numbers in a sql database, which I suspect they will with structures.

Stupid thing is I do agree that if you want a stable method of earning isk then null sec is the worst space for a player to be in but under the new changes mission hubs in player owned space takes far too in the other direction.

Just to add, I was actually for being able to add mission hubs in player own stations before this nerf to jump range.
Prince Kobol
#27 - 2014-10-08 13:59:32 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

-null sec systems can't support many people at all, a situation create by this mess and one that leads to Null being only worth renting. (side note, the kind of thinking displayed in the link above is the same kind of thinking being applied to the jump changes,which is why the whole venture is likely to fail and create an even worse null sec).


CCP Greyscale strikes again Big smile
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#28 - 2014-10-08 14:30:21 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

I would of agreed before the massive nerf Jump range but not know.

After the patch large area's of deep null sec will be a heaven for ratters, adding mission hubs will just make it worse. CCP might as well just inject x isk in your wallets each week and have done with it.



Then you make it impossible to shrink the two block empires in null.


Giving mission agents in player owned Sov will not change that other then creating a method of an earning unlimited amount of isk in a place that is arguably safer then HS.

The only thing that will change the status quo is a complete redesign of Sov Mechanics.. unfortunately we all know that will never happen as CCP have proved that they have none of the required resources available to do this.

All they seem to be able to do to is randomly change some existing numbers in a sql database, which I suspect they will with structures.

Stupid thing is I do agree that if you want a stable method of earning isk then null sec is the worst space for a player to be in but under the new changes mission hubs in player owned space takes far too in the other direction.

Just to add, I was actually for being able to add mission hubs in player own stations before this nerf to jump range.


I came to be against the idea of SOV null mission agents before the announced jump changes and I'm even more so now.

There was a time when I thought it was a good idea, then I remember FW missions (which are supposed to be balnanced by the fact that they generate a 'come pew me' visible beacon in space) and low sec lvl 4 and 5 missions, particulairly lvl 5s.

Missions are not like anoms. Anoms can't be 'blitzed'. Giving sov null residents blitizable pve content would make pve in null safer. The answer would ne 'make sov null missions non-blitzable', but making new missions (and testing them to make sure they aren't bugged or exploitable) is a time consuming developer task

Missions would also let players clump up in a very few systems. This sounds good (and is the stated goal of many) but it ends up being bad for the game because people could just "Locust Fleet" the PVE in pvp fit ships and kill anything strong enough to come in and try to kill you. At the end of the day it would make for safer sov null isk making and it doesn't need to be safer. That kind of safety would do bad things to the economy.

And bubbles on stations would be inconsequential to the whole thing, sov null mission runners would just pos up their mission ship, go to statiion in an interceptor, dock, get new mission, undock, warp to insta, warp to mission ship pos rinse and repeat. people would draw missions with like 12 alts (and then set 11 alts at the mission site/gate and just warp to each on in sequence, no need for 12 mission ships). it would make high sec mission farming look like a cub scout meeting.

And , as in low sec, POSes means mission runners wouldn't even need push mission ship through a gate, just leave mission ships in every possible system a mission could be spawned in.

I think the people who push for missions to replace anomalies as the staple of null sec personal level income have not thought through all the implications or don't have much experience with missions and PVE. The current EVE Online mission agent schemes are so exploitable that replacing the (highly flawed) anom system with them would make things WORSE rather than bette r in a lot of ways. I think a better plan is a real look at how anomalies work and how they give rewards.

All that being said, i would personally enjoy and exploit the living hell out of any SOV null sec mission agent scheme CCP saw fit to introduce. I ain't too proud lol.
Lena Lazair
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#29 - 2014-10-08 14:36:37 UTC
Mohamad Transporte wrote:
High sec incursion nerfed but still acceptable (100 mill per hour isnt that bad for HQs)


I'd rather see high-sec incursion and L4 content placed exclusively in high-sec islands instead of nerfing those income levels.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#30 - 2014-10-08 14:44:00 UTC
This thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#31 - 2014-10-08 14:51:03 UTC
ISD Ezwal wrote:
This thread has been moved to Features & Ideas Discussion.


Called it!
Caviar Liberta
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#32 - 2014-10-08 15:51:44 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

I would of agreed before the massive nerf Jump range but not know.

After the patch large area's of deep null sec will be a heaven for ratters, adding mission hubs will just make it worse. CCP might as well just inject x isk in your wallets each week and have done with it.



Then you make it impossible to shrink the two block empires in null.


I looked at dotlan with the range option for a thanathos. Picked a random system in null sec. The list of systems within 5 light years was big.
Prince Kobol
#33 - 2014-10-08 16:14:26 UTC
Caviar Liberta wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

I would of agreed before the massive nerf Jump range but not know.

After the patch large area's of deep null sec will be a heaven for ratters, adding mission hubs will just make it worse. CCP might as well just inject x isk in your wallets each week and have done with it.



Then you make it impossible to shrink the two block empires in null.


I looked at dotlan with the range option for a thanathos. Picked a random system in null sec. The list of systems within 5 light years was big.


You choose a random system, I will chose one where you would most likely put a mission hub.

4N-BUI in Deklein.

Every system within 5 LY radius using a Thanathos with JDC 5 is in Deklein.

Every system within a 14.561 LY, the maximum current range of a Thanathos with JDC5 is CFC space.

Just to show I am not against this just because it benefits Goonswarm.

TPG-DD in cache

Every system within 5 LY radius using a Thanathos with JDC 5 is in Cache

Every system within a 14.561 LY, the maximum current range of a Thanathos with JDC5 is PL / NC controlled space.

It took me all of a couple of minutes to find those 2 stations. If you want I will find more to prove my point.
DaReaper
Net 7
Cannon.Fodder
#34 - 2014-10-08 16:23:27 UTC
Just glanced...
while I agree with the op, I think it would be better to completely overhaul mining, remove moon goo from moons and make it active. This would help I think

OMG Comet Mining idea!!! Comet Mining!

Eve For life.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-10-08 17:12:12 UTC
You forgot WH.

Make enough isk there to make everything else look like mining veldspar in a noob ship.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#36 - 2014-10-08 17:33:17 UTC
Mohamad Transporte wrote:
we need to differentiate between whats good for the game and whats bad regardless of how many whine threads would be created... healthy stuff requires bold decisions


For that level of incursion income you need to grind in a manner that burns you out psychologically. For that level or L3/4 income, you need to grind as well. In contrast, in 00 you warp in your carrier to an anom and have it sit there. I fail to see the proportion.

Moreover and considering the current system, if you nerf the mission income and people actually move to Low/00 sec to run anoms (highly unlikely), you reduce the LP generation which makes implants more expensive and drives up the income for those who stay again.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#37 - 2014-10-08 17:35:43 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Caviar Liberta wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

I would of agreed before the massive nerf Jump range but not know.

After the patch large area's of deep null sec will be a heaven for ratters, adding mission hubs will just make it worse. CCP might as well just inject x isk in your wallets each week and have done with it.



Then you make it impossible to shrink the two block empires in null.


I looked at dotlan with the range option for a thanathos. Picked a random system in null sec. The list of systems within 5 light years was big.


They can use gates when that patch lands. The point I was making is that with the current income mechanics we are all forced to have huge areas of space if we want to support our members.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#38 - 2014-10-08 17:41:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
They can use gates when that patch lands. The point I was making is that with the current income mechanics we are all forced to have huge areas of space if we want to support our members.


Support your members with empty space?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Mohamad Transporte
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2014-10-08 17:42:58 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Mohamad Transporte wrote:
we need to differentiate between whats good for the game and whats bad regardless of how many whine threads would be created... healthy stuff requires bold decisions


For that level of incursion income you need to grind in a manner that burns you out psychologically. For that level or L3/4 income, you need to grind as well. In contrast, in 00 you warp in your carrier to an anom and have it sit there. I fail to see the proportion.

Moreover and considering the current system, if you nerf the mission income and people actually move to Low/00 sec to run anoms (highly unlikely), you reduce the LP generation which makes implants more expensive and drives up the income for those who stay again.


A- psychologically grinding is grinding.. its all considered pain in the brain.. however, in null u will loose you carrier in a the few seconds u remove you eyes from local or from your intel channel. So basically in high sec its only rare stupid mistakes that make u loose your ships.. where in null u will loose your 2 bill carrier due to a roaming gang/ hotdrop, awox, etc...

B- About LP business, its true, supply of LP will be lower, but not to the extent where it doubles, and even if it doubles, thats good income for high sec that i am ok with if that many people moved to null and create content for us
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2014-10-08 17:45:32 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
They can use gates when that patch lands. The point I was making is that with the current income mechanics we are all forced to have huge areas of space if we want to support our members.


Support your members with empty space?


Its a paradox I know. The space is near worthless yet we need it if it does become worth running anoms due to the 10 pilots per system limit. If CCP somehow made the anoms worth running today then the CFC wouldn't have enough space to support even 10% of its members.