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Future of Jump Freighters?
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Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#1 - 2014-10-08 03:00:14 UTC
How are JF's going to be impacted with the proposed jump changes? Will they still be used, just at a much slower rate? Will they be used for short jumps within regions only? Will they be replaced by escorted convoys? Will there be a lot more JF pilots so they can take turns moving freight?

Does it make sense to train into a JF based on the proposed changes?

Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#2 - 2014-10-08 05:15:25 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
How are JF's going to be impacted with the proposed jump changes? Will they still be used, just at a much slower rate? Will they be used for short jumps within regions only? Will they be replaced by escorted convoys? Will there be a lot more JF pilots so they can take turns moving freight?

Does it make sense to train into a JF based on the proposed changes?



Do you want to move several hundred thousand cubic meters of cargo safer than any other means? If yes, then you still want a JF. Are they getting nerfed? Yes. Do they have competition for moving stuff through low and null sec? Not really.
Karak Bol
Low-Sec Survival Ltd.
#3 - 2014-10-08 06:55:34 UTC
One jump every 6 minutes is still fast enough.
Ragori Mitternacht
13th Revelation
#4 - 2014-10-08 12:05:02 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
How are JF's going to be impacted with the proposed jump changes? Will they still be used, just at a much slower rate? Will they be used for short jumps within regions only? Will they be replaced by escorted convoys? Will there be a lot more JF pilots so they can take turns moving freight?

Does it make sense to train into a JF based on the proposed changes?



To be blunt from what I see and understand Jump Freighters are no longer going to be worthwhile since they will suffer why bother training for it when the regular freighter will do the same thing and haul more without penalties like they are imposing on the jump. Knowing all this I am having to redo all my plans since any ship needing jump capabilities like that will now be useless. Covert Ops now will suck just as bad. their strength was being able to make a "portal" in and out so now well anytime they get close to a gate to jump they will decloak and be easy prey. I could understand the capitols being limited but this has killed any need or desire for the jump freighters. as for covert ops more than likely they will die off as well.
Christopher Mabata
Northern Accounts and Systems
#5 - 2014-10-08 16:36:54 UTC
I agree, these changes are being blown out of proportion very quickly. One jump every six to ten minutes will still allow you to move your goods easily and with haste. The difference is you might need two or three extra cynos to get there. Personally the only use change i see inbound is more jump freighters traveling high sec rather than jumping from amarr to just outside jita on 2-3 cyno alts. Though you can still use the cynos to skip over systems like niarja if you wanted to.

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Ragori Mitternacht
13th Revelation
#6 - 2014-10-08 23:35:02 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:
I agree, these changes are being blown out of proportion very quickly. One jump every six to ten minutes will still allow you to move your goods easily and with haste. The difference is you might need two or three extra cynos to get there. Personally the only use change i see inbound is more jump freighters traveling high sec rather than jumping from amarr to just outside jita on 2-3 cyno alts. Though you can still use the cynos to skip over systems like niarja if you wanted to.


True that is if you can wait a while afterwords for the fatigue to go away but what about those who run transport missons or rely on contracts to move cargo around and they do multiple jumps all over the place. They will be unable to so yes the occasional singular jump run can be used but those that use them all the time well their out of luck.
Creamdream
Whatever Brah
#7 - 2014-10-09 01:55:53 UTC
I am extremely worried about the future of JF...

If they really only get 5 Ly range, then they will be pretty much useless.
Ragori Mitternacht
13th Revelation
#8 - 2014-10-09 12:32:34 UTC
Think about it 5LY range and then they have to cool down before jumping again. True the first few are not so bad but after a few jumps it takes alot longer. Say one in null is using a JF to ship something into high sec not so bad because the larger penalties may not kick in till he is close to high sec and can then use gates but what about when he is going to low sec or null. He will get stranded in systems unsure if there is a true safe spot or not and then when it takes 30 minutes or more to cool down he wants to use a gate then there are gate camps and gankers to fear. so why use a jump freighter when a regular freighter with escort has a better chance of reaching where it needs than a lone jump freighter that is stranded in hostile territory.

Pirates can set themselves in rough areas knowing where jump freighters pass through and just wait scan them down and while the freighter can't move blow it to hell.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#9 - 2014-10-09 12:51:56 UTC
Ragori Mitternacht wrote:
Think about it 5LY range and then they have to cool down before jumping again. True the first few are not so bad but after a few jumps it takes alot longer. Say one in null is using a JF to ship something into high sec not so bad because the larger penalties may not kick in till he is close to high sec and can then use gates but what about when he is going to low sec or null. He will get stranded in systems unsure if there is a true safe spot or not and then when it takes 30 minutes or more to cool down he wants to use a gate then there are gate camps and gankers to fear. so why use a jump freighter when a regular freighter with escort has a better chance of reaching where it needs than a lone jump freighter that is stranded in hostile territory.

Pirates can set themselves in rough areas knowing where jump freighters pass through and just wait scan them down and while the freighter can't move blow it to hell.



Anyone who jumps a freighter to a safe spot even now deserves to die.
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#10 - 2014-10-09 14:41:44 UTC
Ragori Mitternacht wrote:
Think about it 5LY range and then they have to cool down before jumping again. True the first few are not so bad but after a few jumps it takes alot longer. Say one in null is using a JF to ship something into high sec not so bad because the larger penalties may not kick in till he is close to high sec and can then use gates but what about when he is going to low sec or null. He will get stranded in systems unsure if there is a true safe spot or not and then when it takes 30 minutes or more to cool down he wants to use a gate then there are gate camps and gankers to fear. so why use a jump freighter when a regular freighter with escort has a better chance of reaching where it needs than a lone jump freighter that is stranded in hostile territory.

Pirates can set themselves in rough areas knowing where jump freighters pass through and just wait scan them down and while the freighter can't move blow it to hell.


30 minute timer? If you end up with a timer anywhere near that long you're using it wrong. The 90% reduction for the jump fatigue they are getting means it's fast enough to just wait out the timer
Ragori Mitternacht
13th Revelation
#11 - 2014-10-09 18:49:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ragori Mitternacht
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Ragori Mitternacht wrote:
Think about it 5LY range and then they have to cool down before jumping again. True the first few are not so bad but after a few jumps it takes alot longer. Say one in null is using a JF to ship something into high sec not so bad because the larger penalties may not kick in till he is close to high sec and can then use gates but what about when he is going to low sec or null. He will get stranded in systems unsure if there is a true safe spot or not and then when it takes 30 minutes or more to cool down he wants to use a gate then there are gate camps and gankers to fear. so why use a jump freighter when a regular freighter with escort has a better chance of reaching where it needs than a lone jump freighter that is stranded in hostile territory.

Pirates can set themselves in rough areas knowing where jump freighters pass through and just wait scan them down and while the freighter can't move blow it to hell.


30 minute timer? If you end up with a timer anywhere near that long you're using it wrong. The 90% reduction for the jump fatigue they are getting means it's fast enough to just wait out the timer



Stated in the appendix example on the new part here

Quote:
His first jump, of 4.85 LY, takes him to U-TJ7Y. Because he has no fatigue before the jump, he gains a minimum-length jump cooldown timer: 1 minute, plus 4.85 minutes for the distance travelled, for a total of 5.85 minutes, or 5 minutes 51 seconds. He also gains a jump fatigue value of 5.85.

He waits for just under six minutes. In this time his jump fatigue decays down to 5.27. He then makes his next jump – 3.57 LY to LEK-N5. He gets a 5 minute 16 second jump cooldown timer, because his fatigue was 5.27 when he jumped, and his minimum timer would be 4 minutes 34 seconds based on range travelled. He then gets a fatigue increase after the jump. Because he travelled 3.57 LY, his fatigue is multiplied by 4.57, taking it up to 24.06.

He waits out his timer, which also reduces his fatigue to 23.53. After his cooldown timer expires, he makes his third jump, to RO0-AF, a distance of 4.19 LY. He gains a jump cooldown timer of 23 minutes 32 seconds, and his fatigue is multiplied by 5.19, up to 122.14.

After waiting for 23.5 minutes at the convenient local station, his fatigue is down to 119.79. He jumps again, to 2R-CRW – 4.9 LY. At this point his cooldown timer is 2 hours 2 minutes 8 seconds, and his fatigue is 706.74. At this point his total distance travelled is 17.51 LY, leaving him with 37.04 LY to go. He looks at his map, and finds a 40-route jump through nullsec to get to the same destination, and figuring two minutes per system, his warp travel time for the whole journey is a bit over half the cooldown for his next jump. He decides to fly there directly rather than trying to jump any further.



So unless they are saying something I am not understanding here jump freighters are practically useless since a regular freighter can now move the same distance in the same time and haul more stuff than a jump. the only good thing a jump freighter has now is if they jump to avoid trouble spots but even then their is a risk of landing in even a worse spot.
Derath Ellecon
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2014-10-09 19:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Derath Ellecon
Ragori Mitternacht wrote:
So unless they are saying something I am not understanding here


Yea, From that example

"His Archon’s jump range is now 5 LY. "

The devil is in the details.

[edit]

It also helps to read the most up to date information

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=378426
Aerie Evingod
Midwest Miners LLC
#13 - 2014-10-09 19:34:40 UTC
Ragori Mitternacht wrote:



So unless they are saying something I am not understanding here jump freighters are practically useless since a regular freighter can now move the same distance in the same time and haul more stuff than a jump. the only good thing a jump freighter has now is if they jump to avoid trouble spots but even then their is a risk of landing in even a worse spot.


Their 10ly range and 90% fatigue reduction. The 10ly range is part of version 2 changes, the fatigue reduction was in the initial proposed changes.
Pookoko
Sigma Sagittarii Inc.
#14 - 2014-10-14 08:55:45 UTC
From the range/travel time point of view, sure it's a nerf and more nerfs will come.

But what is the alternative? Travel through null/low-sec entry points in a freighter? Travel through 10+ null/low-sec gates in a freighter?

Even after the range/travel time nerf, JF will be unique in that it can bypass gates and land exactly where you want it to land (unless that changes in future too). This is not a negligible benefit - this is a HUGE appeal for a jump freighter.

Travel time savings JF of now offers is just matter of convenience, but jump capability is its real key strength that makes JF worthwhile.

So yes, after the Phoebe JF travelling will be less convenient than it is now, but it will still be worth it.
TomyLobo
U2EZ
#15 - 2014-10-15 14:41:13 UTC
I still think CCP went overboard with the jump changes. The maximum jump fatigue attainable should be around 24 hrs not a month.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#16 - 2014-10-17 21:18:54 UTC
Aerie Evingod wrote:
Their 10ly range and 90% fatigue reduction. The 10ly range is part of version 2 changes, the fatigue reduction was in the initial proposed changes.

The 10 ly (max skill) range is temporary.
Amely Miles
Second Exile
#17 - 2014-10-18 00:27:53 UTC
Pookoko wrote:
unless that changes in future too.


If this comes to pass were all going to blame you :p

As I slipped my finger slowly inside her hole, I could immediately feel it getting wetter and wetter.

I took my finger back out and within seconds she was going down on me.

"I really need a new boat," I thought to myself.