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Prevent carriers from becoming invincible in lowsec [next expansion]
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Ellendras Silver
CrashCat Corporation
#21 - 2014-10-04 14:56:51 UTC
Zan Shiro wrote:
I'll bite.


You aren't hard tackling this cap on the gate before it launches.

So what if it does something funky like.....warp to celestial, let cap regen happen cloaked and then hit next gate. Basically what they do now with cap heavy travel fits and laying low at safes.



Secomnd question is....what cap need do you have in mind? Since this is based on overcoming the field of a jump drive....blops says look at my bpc, and see what I have inside my ship. If you go flat rate, and say less than 50% of ship cap....blops average cap would be that lowest cap needed. Which a cap should have no problems. And you'd just be screwing over blops really .


you understand that a carriers aligning speed is that of a turtle and the same goes for accelerating and warping. so unless they fail dramaticly that carrier is a pinata and dies

[u]Carpe noctem[/u]
cynomakinggirl
No Risk No ISK
#22 - 2014-10-04 15:28:04 UTC
If you draw the cap empty of the carrer after it jumps through the gate, it won't have enough cap to instantly jump out with it's jump drive.
If the carrier is pinned on one side of the gate, it won't be able to use the gate nor the jump drive because it's cap will not be full enough.

"The internet is a reliable source of information." - Abraham Lincoln
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#23 - 2014-10-04 15:54:43 UTC
Ellendras Silver wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
I'll bite.


You aren't hard tackling this cap on the gate before it launches.

So what if it does something funky like.....warp to celestial, let cap regen happen cloaked and then hit next gate. Basically what they do now with cap heavy travel fits and laying low at safes.



Secomnd question is....what cap need do you have in mind? Since this is based on overcoming the field of a jump drive....blops says look at my bpc, and see what I have inside my ship. If you go flat rate, and say less than 50% of ship cap....blops average cap would be that lowest cap needed. Which a cap should have no problems. And you'd just be screwing over blops really .


you understand that a carriers aligning speed is that of a turtle and the same goes for accelerating and warping. so unless they fail dramaticly that carrier is a pinata and dies


Yes I know. I am in the op's scenario of somehow this carrier aligned and cleared the first gate to even think about jumping next gate to have this cap use on gate be a factor.


The OP scenario to me actually screams bring the right setup and you got it. Don't bring it...well why waste the time. Like one home I was in....a motivated dictor pilot bubbles a solo mommy and goes I got one. Our leadership knowing the numbers not online to drop it in a timely and efficient manner replied good for you....you caught it, you can fight it too lol. Lacking the numbers to kill it...well one target got away and we handled targets not something a waste of time. Made sense to me...but this based on some fishing experience.


if I go fishing for tuna/mahi mahi I bring a certain weight test line. If going for swordfish or larger game fish....I'd bring a much higher spec test line.

Basically the cap having cap to jump another gate not an issue. A fleet/camp lacking tools is. That and I do have some empathy for cap pilots with this change. I fly them myself. I do like the changes (not in oh wo is me, end of the world camp)...but lets not just pile more stuff on it. If say tuskers fails to drop the archon in a timely manner, well then archon earned its getaway.

Game is a game for 2 side. Will your side do what it takes to kill something more than what the other side will do to avoid dying. Side that that wants it more earns its win.
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#24 - 2014-10-04 16:16:42 UTC
no, as someone who has lost a carrier helping a friend with his carrier in low, you can run the carrier off the ate by bumping, you can kill their cap. cap ships are far from invincible

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith
cynomakinggirl
No Risk No ISK
#25 - 2014-10-04 16:19:29 UTC
Agondray wrote:
no, as someone who has lost a carrier helping a friend with his carrier in low, you can run the carrier off the ate by bumping, you can kill their cap. cap ships are far from invincible


you cannot bump them if they are in triage and killing their cap only prevents them from using their repairers. they still have huge amounts of EHP that a fleet of less than 40 people won't be able to go through before the triage expires and the capital jumps through the stargate

"The internet is a reliable source of information." - Abraham Lincoln
MP2008
Restinotia Corp
#26 - 2014-10-04 16:37:16 UTC
Ok bro, since you obviously are not a PVP veteran let me explain this to you. Carriers will NOT be invincible.

Even in triage mode 40 bombers will annihilate you in short order. 40 bombers putting out 700 dps each is 28000 DPS. That is the same as having roughly 3-4 dreads pound on you. Even in triage, you're going to struggle enormously.

What does that mean? It means that in addition to the neuting the enemy fleet will undoubtedly be hitting you with you will be using your own cap trying to rep yourself. So even if you DID make it out of triage and jump. And even if they DIDNT deagress and catch you immediately on the otherside. YOU CANNOT JUMP! Because you DO NOT HAVE JUMP CAP!

That being said, they're probably going to catch you. Good luck trying to slowboat back to that gate or even surviving the first 3 minutes of the fight. Post your loss plox.
cynomakinggirl
No Risk No ISK
#27 - 2014-10-04 17:11:42 UTC
MP2008 wrote:
Ok bro, since you obviously are not a PVP veteran let me explain this to you. Carriers will NOT be invincible.

Even in triage mode 40 bombers will annihilate you in short order. 40 bombers putting out 700 dps each is 28000 DPS. That is the same as having roughly 3-4 dreads pound on you. Even in triage, you're going to struggle enormously.

What does that mean? It means that in addition to the neuting the enemy fleet will undoubtedly be hitting you with you will be using your own cap trying to rep yourself. So even if you DID make it out of triage and jump. And even if they DIDNT deagress and catch you immediately on the otherside. YOU CANNOT JUMP! Because you DO NOT HAVE JUMP CAP!

That being said, they're probably going to catch you. Good luck trying to slowboat back to that gate or even surviving the first 3 minutes of the fight. Post your loss plox.



A cheap and well fitted archon will have 4.5 million EHP, good luck going through that "in short order".

"The internet is a reliable source of information." - Abraham Lincoln
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#28 - 2014-10-04 17:41:30 UTC
Bombers most certainly can bump a carrier off a gate. They just aren't the best choice to do it. Bumping also does not gain one suspect/etc. So anyone could potentially be a bumper.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
admiral root
Red Galaxy
#29 - 2014-10-04 17:43:40 UTC
Confirming carriers (or titans fitted with sebo, gyros and smartbombs) have never died in lowsec because they're invincible.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#30 - 2014-10-04 17:52:26 UTC  |  Edited by: ShahFluffers
cynomakinggirl wrote:
MP2008 wrote:
Ok bro, since you obviously are not a PVP veteran let me explain this to you. Carriers will NOT be invincible.

Even in triage mode 40 bombers will annihilate you in short order. 40 bombers putting out 700 dps each is 28000 DPS. That is the same as having roughly 3-4 dreads pound on you. Even in triage, you're going to struggle enormously.

What does that mean? It means that in addition to the neuting the enemy fleet will undoubtedly be hitting you with you will be using your own cap trying to rep yourself. So even if you DID make it out of triage and jump. And even if they DIDNT deagress and catch you immediately on the otherside. YOU CANNOT JUMP! Because you DO NOT HAVE JUMP CAP!

That being said, they're probably going to catch you. Good luck trying to slowboat back to that gate or even surviving the first 3 minutes of the fight. Post your loss plox.



A cheap and well fitted archon will have 4.5 million EHP, good luck going through that "in short order".

Show fit. Because the most I can get is 2.3 million EHP... and it is not a particularly effective combat ship (especially with Triage).

Also... you can easily grind down a carrier with 5 battleships in less than 5-10 minutes. Hell... a Hyperion (or any battleship for that matter) can potentially solo a carrier if the carrier isn't set up right (see: it isn't going to be able to fight off a battleship if it is "travel fit").

The adage "a solo capital is a dead capital" still rings true.

Now a fleet of capitals... assuming they don't all bounce off gates each time they try to jump to another system... you will see that coming a mile away and can easily avoid it.

How did you Veterans start?
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#31 - 2014-10-04 18:40:20 UTC
cynomakinggirl wrote:
MP2008 wrote:
Ok bro, since you obviously are not a PVP veteran let me explain this to you. Carriers will NOT be invincible.

Even in triage mode 40 bombers will annihilate you in short order. 40 bombers putting out 700 dps each is 28000 DPS. That is the same as having roughly 3-4 dreads pound on you. Even in triage, you're going to struggle enormously.

What does that mean? It means that in addition to the neuting the enemy fleet will undoubtedly be hitting you with you will be using your own cap trying to rep yourself. So even if you DID make it out of triage and jump. And even if they DIDNT deagress and catch you immediately on the otherside. YOU CANNOT JUMP! Because you DO NOT HAVE JUMP CAP!

That being said, they're probably going to catch you. Good luck trying to slowboat back to that gate or even surviving the first 3 minutes of the fight. Post your loss plox.



A cheap and well fitted archon will have 4.5 million EHP, good luck going through that "in short order".

How much longer are you going to continue with your ridiculous ill-thought out ideas before you close this topic? You are literally making no sense with every post you make and being wack-a-moled by everyone who posts.
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-10-04 18:53:20 UTC
cynomakinggirl wrote:
Problem Nr 1: A carrier pilot can avoid jump fatigue by traveling through lowsec with a cyno alt. Procedure: Have an alt in jump range with a cyno. Jump through a gate, scan your surroundings with the directional scanner, if safe warp to next gate, if not jump to cyno. Repeat.
This is ok.

cynomakinggirl wrote:
Problem Nr 2: It's almost impossible to kill a carrier in lowsec without capitals. Procedure: Warp to a gate and have your triage ready. Engage hostiles at wish. When someone attempts to bump you, activate your triage to make you bump-proof. When triage expires, jump through the gate and warp out.
this is ok too. Because contrary to popular belief, a capital (notice the singular) is not invincible. plenty of ways to force that carrier to die. for example have on interceptor not disengage and wait on other side. now he is stuck and can only hope you didn't bring neuts.

cynomakinggirl wrote:
Solution: Use capacitor for activating gates much like using your jump drive "to dampen out the interference between your jump drive and the stargate". Problem 1 is solved because the carrier won't have enough capacitor to make a jump right after jumping through the stargate, making it impossible to avoid a gate camp. Problem 2 is solved because the carrier will need to repair itself in order to survive and won't have enough capacitor to jump through the stargate.
No problems need no solutions.
cynomakinggirl
No Risk No ISK
#33 - 2014-10-04 19:04:53 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
cynomakinggirl wrote:
MP2008 wrote:
Ok bro, since you obviously are not a PVP veteran let me explain this to you. Carriers will NOT be invincible.

Even in triage mode 40 bombers will annihilate you in short order. 40 bombers putting out 700 dps each is 28000 DPS. That is the same as having roughly 3-4 dreads pound on you. Even in triage, you're going to struggle enormously.

What does that mean? It means that in addition to the neuting the enemy fleet will undoubtedly be hitting you with you will be using your own cap trying to rep yourself. So even if you DID make it out of triage and jump. And even if they DIDNT deagress and catch you immediately on the otherside. YOU CANNOT JUMP! Because you DO NOT HAVE JUMP CAP!

That being said, they're probably going to catch you. Good luck trying to slowboat back to that gate or even surviving the first 3 minutes of the fight. Post your loss plox.



A cheap and well fitted archon will have 4.5 million EHP, good luck going through that "in short order".

Show fit. Because the most I can get is 2.3 million EHP... and it is not a particularly effective combat ship (especially with Triage).

Also... you can easily grind down a carrier with 5 battleships in less than 5-10 minutes. Hell... a Hyperion (or any battleship for that matter) can potentially solo a carrier if the carrier isn't set up right (see: it isn't going to be able to fight off a battleship if it is "travel fit").

The adage "a solo capital is a dead capital" still rings true.

Now a fleet of capitals... assuming they don't all bounce off gates each time they try to jump to another system... you will see that coming a mile away and can easily avoid it.



4.5 million EHP http://snag.gy/khuku.jpg

"The internet is a reliable source of information." - Abraham Lincoln
Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2014-10-04 19:07:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Valleria Darkmoon
To be honest I'm slightly concerned with SUPERS being able to gate in low sec, regular capitals not so much. This is because supers are very hard to hold down in low sec anyway and is therefore less feasible to have HICs on both sides of a gate without preparation because those of us living in low sec will rarely get into a HIC without a good reason. On top of that supers can use fighters to kill HICs in many situations particularly if the HICs have to divide their logi across a gate.

Null I don't see it as being as big a deal since multiple dictors are routinely part of null fleets making it easy to bubble said super on either side and a bubbled super isn't going anywhere in the near future.

EDIT: Incidentally can't you use a HIC super point on carriers in triage or dreads in siege? Since they affect e-war immune I'm inclined to think you can but I'm not 100% on it.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
MP2008
Restinotia Corp
#35 - 2014-10-04 20:33:33 UTC
cynomakinggirl wrote:
MP2008 wrote:
Ok bro, since you obviously are not a PVP veteran let me explain this to you. Carriers will NOT be invincible.

Even in triage mode 40 bombers will annihilate you in short order. 40 bombers putting out 700 dps each is 28000 DPS. That is the same as having roughly 3-4 dreads pound on you. Even in triage, you're going to struggle enormously.

What does that mean? It means that in addition to the neuting the enemy fleet will undoubtedly be hitting you with you will be using your own cap trying to rep yourself. So even if you DID make it out of triage and jump. And even if they DIDNT deagress and catch you immediately on the otherside. YOU CANNOT JUMP! Because you DO NOT HAVE JUMP CAP!

That being said, they're probably going to catch you. Good luck trying to slowboat back to that gate or even surviving the first 3 minutes of the fight. Post your loss plox.



A cheap and well fitted archon will have 4.5 million EHP, good luck going through that "in short order".




Exhibit A. Last year I got bombers bar to drop onto a small dread fleet that we baited in our home system at the time.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/31925502/

Exhibit B https://zkillboard.com/kill/31925565/

And Lastly Exhibit C https://zkillboard.com/kill/31925666/


For a combined total damage taken of just under 3 million.

Notice how the force that we killed them with was predominantly bombers. They were dead before they were even halfway through their siege cycle.

I don't care what your EHP is. Your EHP is determined by your strongest resists. 60 bombers has a lot of variable damage in it.

If youre in a triage carrier by yourself and run into a 50 man bomber gang that isn't total garbage, you are going to die. I would even wager you die before you hit 3/4 of your triage cycle.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#36 - 2014-10-04 20:34:34 UTC
cynomakinggirl wrote:
4.5 million EHP http://snag.gy/khuku.jpg

Yeah... an interceptor can pin that thing down indefinitely (you can't jump while pointed). And a Hyperion can solo it given enough time (that carrier fit can't do more than 600 dps, tops). And it has no prop mod so it will take 2-3 minutes to burn back to the stargate at 77 m/sec.

Oh yeah... and you can't use drones while in Triage mode. You have to chose between surviving or killing whatever is pinning you down.
(also... not sure about this... but doesn't Triage Mode give a "weapons timer" akin to a Marauder's Bastion Mode?)

Again... give me 5 battleships, each with a heavy energy neut, and that thing will go down in less than 10 minutes. Without any losses.

How did you Veterans start?
Rowells
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2014-10-04 20:38:31 UTC
cynomakinggirl wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
cynomakinggirl wrote:
MP2008 wrote:
Ok bro, since you obviously are not a PVP veteran let me explain this to you. Carriers will NOT be invincible.

Even in triage mode 40 bombers will annihilate you in short order. 40 bombers putting out 700 dps each is 28000 DPS. That is the same as having roughly 3-4 dreads pound on you. Even in triage, you're going to struggle enormously.

What does that mean? It means that in addition to the neuting the enemy fleet will undoubtedly be hitting you with you will be using your own cap trying to rep yourself. So even if you DID make it out of triage and jump. And even if they DIDNT deagress and catch you immediately on the otherside. YOU CANNOT JUMP! Because you DO NOT HAVE JUMP CAP!

That being said, they're probably going to catch you. Good luck trying to slowboat back to that gate or even surviving the first 3 minutes of the fight. Post your loss plox.



A cheap and well fitted archon will have 4.5 million EHP, good luck going through that "in short order".

Show fit. Because the most I can get is 2.3 million EHP... and it is not a particularly effective combat ship (especially with Triage).

Also... you can easily grind down a carrier with 5 battleships in less than 5-10 minutes. Hell... a Hyperion (or any battleship for that matter) can potentially solo a carrier if the carrier isn't set up right (see: it isn't going to be able to fight off a battleship if it is "travel fit").

The adage "a solo capital is a dead capital" still rings true.

Now a fleet of capitals... assuming they don't all bounce off gates each time they try to jump to another system... you will see that coming a mile away and can easily avoid it.



4.5 million EHP http://snag.gy/khuku.jpg
links tend to mean you arent really solo does it?
MP2008
Restinotia Corp
#38 - 2014-10-04 20:45:17 UTC
Also Each capital armor rep you have reps you for about 9600-10k every 30 seconds out of triage. factor in skills and triage and we'll bump that down to about 10-12 seconds. And double it to your rep capacity without any drugs or implants to 38k every 12 seconds.

a crappy bomber with torpedos will usually have a volley of about 4800.

4800 x 60 is 288k

Now lets factor in your resists.

Let's say they're so damn good that each bomber is only hitting you for 1000 damage per volley.

With a firing rate of about every 10 seconds per bomber. you are getting hit with 60k damage while youre only repping 40k tops.

That means youre bleeding.

Any vollies that hit you for OVER that 1k damage (which is very likely) will increase the amount of HP you bleed EXPONENTIALLY.

Post your loss.
TheMercenaryKing
Collapsed Out
Pandemic Legion
#39 - 2014-10-04 20:50:55 UTC
HAHAHA OP Thinks that only capitals can kill carriers. You clearly have never gone around in a fleet of 20 desi and frigs before.
cynomakinggirl
No Risk No ISK
#40 - 2014-10-04 22:34:20 UTC
I think you guys have reading comprehension problems. You cannot pin down a carrier after it jumps through a lowsec gate because it's equipped with a jump drive, thus it doesn't need to approch the gate or warp to anywhere in order to avoid your fleet.
It will be impossible to surprise a carrier with 50 bombers because there will be scouts in nearby systems. Jump bridging also won't work because the maximum distance is 5 ly and scouts can monitor that region for suspicious titans.

The carrier pilot will be able to very safely take on the majority of fights.

"The internet is a reliable source of information." - Abraham Lincoln
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