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New Slowcats after Capital Changes

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Valleria Darkmoon
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2014-10-09 10:42:11 UTC
It's not like jump drives don't exist after this patch goes live. If you want to roam around in carriers that will need to refit off each other to be combat ready do you really want to deal with the logistics of having 100 or so carriers trying to refit when someone drops cyno and drops combat ready caps and TiDi kicks in? Doesn't sound too appealing to me.

The only time your jump timers will really ramp up is if you go more than two jumps without allowing your fatigue timer to lapse. Fatigue ramps up fast but starts quite low so something like cyno to regional gate > jump gate > cyno to dest feels very plausible to me and shouldn't be too strenuous on your timer as long as you let your fatigue timer expire before jumping again. The changes feel like they are there to curtail the ability to use jump drives in lieu of warp drives and gates not to remove them. Smart use of jump drives and gates in tandem will be the key to success in the near future.

Wormholes can potentially solve some of your movement constraints but even a C6 can't come close to allowing an entire null alliance's slowcat fleet though. Again education and correct use of wormholes will save you a lot of time. Improper use will result in self-destructed/stranded ships and pods.

The point is that instead of trying to mitigate the rules to continue to use a current doctrine, it will be better to realize that in some situations a different doctrine altogether can be more appropriate.

Reality has an almost infinite capacity to resist oversimplification.
Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#42 - 2014-10-09 13:29:46 UTC
After couple "jump as soon as ready" jumps you are stuck for ~6h. depending on range you jump you would have to wait for ~30 to 60 minutes for the fatigue from the first jump to dissipate.

So I do not believe the scenario of jump to regional gate, take gate, jump to target will be common.

If the TiDi kick in it is not much harder to refit than without TiDi. Sure, it is hassle, but dreads under fire seem to be able to pull it off (fitting damage control + bulkheads in the low) so I do not see why would the carrier be any different. Especially if also receiving remote reps during the process unlike sieged dreads. If caught totally by surprise perhaps first couple might be alphaed off the field.

Then again if your 200 carriers get dropped by 200 dreads your carriers should be indeed, perhaps, be in trouble. Ofc 200 dreads do not come out of nothing so any FC leading couple hundred carriers would be probably aware of these dreads logging in and forming.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Anthar Thebess
#43 - 2014-10-09 13:58:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
Point of this topic is not to find a way for a new slowcat / boot fleet.
But to prevent this from happening again.

If we get to the point you don't have to drop MORE to win the situation, or where counter to your fleet is just to drop MORE capitals, or especially , if you want to brake the tank you JUST have to use 700-1000 alpha maelstorms.

Forcing dreads to siege in order to get most of the benefits , is the best thing CCP could do.
Because of this no one had issues about dreads being op.

If we limit all remote aid of carriers , without the triage - we can achieve the same situation.

If you drop 200 dreads on 200 carriers , well situation can go very bad for the dreads more than for the carriers.

Why?
Dreads have to siege in order to do damage.
Carriers do not have to use triage to repair others.
If those carriers will smart bubbles / kill tackle and rewarp to be out of range of those dreads.
You will have 200 dreads dead just for the cost of few carriers.

Remember carriers don't have to do nothing to repair others and use thier drones.
Carriers are all the time mobile.

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Carniflex
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#44 - 2014-10-10 13:12:26 UTC
The obvious counter to 200 carriers is, actually, dreads if you are limited to the similar numbers.

A single nag does ~85000 alpha every ~15 seconds. A typical slowcat has approx 2 mil EHP. So you need approx 25 dreads to alpha one (pirate ammo, 3x damage mods). Meaning if you drop 200 nags on the 200 slowcats you should, in theory, be able to remove 8 carriers every 15 seconds or around 32 carriers per minute. That's all nice ofc on paper ;) In reality it would be kinda triky to pull off unless your members are godlike disciplined and know exactly what they are doing.

"The problem" is that 200 dreads with artillery aint doing anything if they have sub-caps in their hair while carriers are far more universal.

I do not believe CCP intends the slowcat blob to go away. It seems to me more like they are intending to throw their vets a bone to avoid the massive unsubbing which would follow if capitals would be made non-viable ships altogether.

So I would speculate that what would happen, actually, is replacing the fleet backbones in the heavier doctrines with carriers instead of battleships. The advantages far out-weight the small increase in the cost of the platform. Most notable of these being practically immune to bombs and the massive EHP buffer. Main vulnerability is inability to burn out of bubbles but on the other hand if bubbles do go down you can extract in a blink of an eye through jump drive. Many of the current shinier BS doctrines already sit in that price ballpark anyway - for example, BL navy apocs.

Here, sanity... niiiice sanity, come to daddy... okay, that's a good sanity... THWONK! GOT the bastard.
Anthar Thebess
#45 - 2014-10-10 13:51:37 UTC
Sorry, been there did this - it does not work.
When you get to this point server nodes , just don't work.

We trowed more than once 100+ dreads on slowcat fleet.
Outcome you will find on KB.

Slowcats / Boots = TIDI.
TIDI = dead Dreads, and alive carriers.

Now this will be even worst , as buffed fighters will easily grind down any dread fleet.

Smartbombs?

Well we are still getting to the same point - what makes carriers so OP.
They do damage , and repair at the same time.

Dreads in order to do damage have to siege, so they cannot be repaired.
Smart bombing a fighters , by other ship of course will be equal to smarbombing most of ehp on your dreads.
Even when you manage to smartbomb enemy fighters without killing any of your dreads, they will be damaged, and carriers will just drop sentry drones ... and finish the dreads.

So at current server capabilities there is no point of doping dreads on a carrier fleet.
( no im not talking about 20 carriers , but let say above 150 )

No bombs don't work either on sentry drones.
Under TIDI 10%, when 1500+ drones is shooting your most often just fly and never explode.


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