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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Saali Demonis
Perkone
Caldari State
#8141 - 2014-11-15 19:24:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Saali Demonis
This update was meant to nerf CAPITALS hotdrop, so why does this apply the same maner to conventionnal ships which jump through jump bridges ? Even SHUTTLES are affected......

This update was meant to nerf CAPITALS hotdrop, so why does it apply to jump bridge, which were designed to travel through a region an alliance or a corp settle ?

I'm not a winner, but this update is really a pain for CONVENTIONNAL SHIPS using jump bridges.

CCP apply jump fatigue to CAPITAL SHIPS using JUMP DRIVE ONLY.

Otherwise it's nonsense.
Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8142 - 2014-11-15 19:28:12 UTC
Your mistake is that it was meant to hit power projection (not capitals) which includes everything.

right down to shuttles.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8143 - 2014-11-16 14:17:56 UTC
The "all-Eve" issue is an important one to address for sure, but to CCP, on the Jump Faitgue issue and the player reaction to it, I am just going to say "Told you so." Act quick before the losses become too great. I have already registered my feedback on this thread and the other one.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8144 - 2014-11-16 14:58:18 UTC
"Act now before the losses become too great"?

Last I checked, the russians were resurging, people have moved around, and old vets have come back with a bloodlust to sate. And from what I can see, it looks like the number of people who are online is increasing as well, unlike pre-phoebe, where they were falling.

"Before the losses become too great", indeed.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8145 - 2014-11-16 20:52:25 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Last I checked, the russians were resurging, people have moved around, and old vets have come back with a bloodlust to sate. And from what I can see, it looks like the number of people who are online is increasing as well, unlike pre-phoebe, where they were falling.

You are speaking way too prematurely, and as if you know all things Eve. Take a look at eve-offline and eveboard. There is nothing to support your claims in those charts. You tell the story of what you want to believe, instead of how it really is; just the same as when you misquote people. The feedback on these threads support my claims.

Keep in mind that most players live in high sec and are unaffected by changes to capital ships. If CCP entirely killed nullsec, the numbers wouldn't change that much, but if half of the universe dies, the game still dies in a major way, because driving away veterans is never good. If CCP gave capital players meaningful capital content in high sec, then I would say "Who cares about null sec" as I changed my mind about whether to start logging in again.

If you look at the weekly averages, they went down in mid-September and came up slightly as people logged in to see the changes. These reactions tell me that those numbers are likely to drop again.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8146 - 2014-11-16 22:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord TGR
Andy Landen wrote:
You are speaking way too prematurely, and as if you know all things Eve. Take a look at eve-offline and eveboard. There is nothing to support your claims in those charts.

Andy Landen wrote:
If you look at the weekly averages, they went down in mid-September and came up slightly as people logged in to see the changes. These reactions tell me that those numbers are likely to drop again.

Is this going to be like when you tried to teach me how logoff works?

I did look at eve-offline, and actually, you'll notice it's been going steadily downhill since febuary, if you actually did look,, and the downhill spiral kept going all the way until late september, where it finally rebounded, and continues to rebound to the point where we're looking at a 41% increase in the maximum number of people online in 1.5 months. In fact, from what I see, it looks like the increase in people online actually steepened after Phoebe was announced, it didn't dive off a cliff like one would expect it to if "the masses" thought it was a change which'd kill off EVE.

In fact, it's almost like there's a few small wars brewing, where some old players are returning and forming new powerblocs again, and going after space. It's almost like the changes CCP have added are good changes.

I'll gladly wait another 6 months to see what the actual effects are, though, especially when they're combined with the new sov changes, but I'm fairly certain it won't be me eating crow as CCP's changes (sorry, "unnecessary micromanagement") envigorates nullsec even further in the upcoming months. Barring christmas etc, since most sensible people are spending time with their families, not internet spaceships.

Andy Landen wrote:
You tell the story of what you want to believe, instead of how it really is; just the same as when you misquote people. The feedback on these threads support my claims.

No, what you're looking at is commonly known as "the vocal minority". Those who are happy with the changes, and can adapt their way of doing things, aren't going to be running to the forums to scream and shout about how EVE is NOT dying. Bitching and moaning about something is far more likely than giving praise. And the number of people online seem to be indicating that the majority are fine with the changes.

And AFAIK I haven't misquoted you. I have, however, interpreted what you've tried to say, but that's harder than it should be since you've gone from "caps are useless, who would want to fly caps now?" to "CCP are trying to feed cap kills to subcaps", to "caps travelling alone, with a scout, will instadie to any roaming gang that comes rolling through space", something about blops being the best way to travel between staging systems (even if the best ship for that job would be the interceptor), and finally to "CCP are in PL's pocket because the jump changes are very beneficial to them", which is pretty darn long from where you started out.

Andy Landen wrote:
Keep in mind that most players live in high sec and are unaffected by changes to capital ships. If CCP entirely killed nullsec, the numbers wouldn't change that much, but if half of the universe dies, the game still dies in a major way, because driving away veterans is never good. If CCP gave capital players meaningful capital content in high sec, then I would say "Who cares about null sec" as I changed my mind about whether to start logging in again.

Funny, I seem to remember you saying something along the route of "I have said what needed to be said and if it falls on deaf ears and Eve collapses, then so be it." not long ago, because of your assumed jump changes' effects on caps' popularity. Now it's "well, nullsec could die, and nobody would notice any of it".

But considering CCP's said they're not denying the possibility of caps in hisec, you're probably in luck. You can soon hide behind the skirt of mother concord as you jump around in total safety.
Andy Landen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8147 - 2014-11-17 00:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Landen
Lord TGR wrote:

I did look at eve-offline, and actually, you'll notice it's been going steadily downhill since febuary, if you actually did look,, and the downhill spiral kept going all the way until late september, where it finally rebounded, and continues to rebound to the point where we're looking at a 41% increase in the maximum number of people online in 1.5 months. In fact, from what I see, it looks like the increase in people online actually steepened after Phoebe was announced, it didn't dive off a cliff like one would expect it to if "the masses" thought it was a change which'd kill off EVE.

In fact, it's almost like there's a few small wars brewing, where some old players are returning and forming new powerblocs again, and going after space. It's almost like the changes CCP have added are good changes.

I'll gladly wait another 6 months to see what the actual effects are, though, especially when they're combined with the new sov changes, but I'm fairly certain it won't be me eating crow as CCP's changes (sorry, "unnecessary micromanagement") envigorates nullsec even further in the upcoming months. Barring christmas etc, since most sensible people are spending time with their families, not internet spaceships.....

Your rebound still leaves the number of pilots online far below historic levels (even earlier this year when drone ships were nerfed hard, ships continued to get rebalanced, among other things). Not saying that I disagree with all those changes, but the number online has been much much higher in the past. I know you want to see invigoration, and maybe the hit to "all Eve" battles will do a lot, but I have a feeling that people will have a big problem with not being able to use their jump bridges and jump drives like they use to.

Lord TGR wrote:

And AFAIK I haven't misquoted you. I have, however, interpreted what you've tried to say, but that's harder than it should be since you've gone from "caps are useless, who would want to fly caps now?" to "CCP are trying to feed cap kills to subcaps", to "caps travelling alone, with a scout, will instadie to any roaming gang that comes rolling through space", something about blops being the best way to travel between staging systems (even if the best ship for that job would be the interceptor), and finally to "CCP are in PL's pocket because the jump changes are very beneficial to them", which is pretty darn long from where you started out......
/quote]
When quotes surrounded what you "interpreted", it is still called "misquoting". When the interpretations are very far off, it is called "spinning."

That said, your summation here is quite accurate. Though something tells me that you do not see how anyone can hold those points of view at exactly the same time.

[quote=Lord TGR]
Funny, I seem to remember you saying something along the route of "I have said what needed to be said and if it falls on deaf ears and Eve collapses, then so be it." not long ago, because of your assumed jump changes' effects on caps' popularity. Now it's "well, nullsec could die, and nobody would notice any of it".

But considering CCP's said they're not denying the possibility of caps in hisec, you're probably in luck. You can soon hide behind the skirt of mother concord as you jump around in total safety.

I am pretty sure that people who fly caps, in general, do not like the nerf to jump distance and jump fatigue. It is also true that most people live in high sec and do not notice null sec (according to the charts, anyhow). But does CCP want to intrigue people with null sec, or finish her off? Why kill at least half the systems in the Eve universe? Will I hide behind "mother Concord" if there is nothing fun to do in high sec? If I am still around by the time they get to it, I might take a look, but many initiatives stagnate for extremely long periods of time; remember the station walking? That door is still locked. If CCP does not provide good content, then I will find something else fun to do in some other game. And no, I don't call "being a target" good content.

"We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used when we created them." Albert Einstein 

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8148 - 2014-11-17 01:52:24 UTC
Andy Landen wrote:
Your rebound still leaves the number of pilots online far below historic levels

Well duh, it's been a 1.5 months since they announced phoebe, and the numbers have gone up 41%, to the point where we're seeing 79.7% of the highest number we've had all year long, as opposed to 56.5%. I know some people have a low tolerance for this concept called "having some patience", but jeez, have some patience.

EVE nullsec's sucked literal dicks for years, I'm surprised it's taken this long to get as bad as it had. I've been saying for years that CCP should do away with the dominion sov system because it was inevitable that it would lead to the situation we had up until a week prior to phoebe, i.e. a few major powers, and wars which suck. I didn't expect wars to quit entirely, but I should've.

Andy Landen wrote:
(even earlier this year when drone ships were nerfed hard, ships continued to get rebalanced, among other things). Not saying that I disagree with all those changes, but the number online has been much much higher in the past. I know you want to see invigoration, and maybe the hit to "all Eve" battles will do a lot, but I have a feeling that people will have a big problem with not being able to use their jump bridges and jump drives like they use to.

Ah yes, the drone nerf. I sure see how that's a severe hit, since I see ishtars being used everywhere.

And you can have "a feeling" as much as you'd like, fact is that the change is here, and it's something you're going to have to deal with, but unlike what you're thinking, it will not kill eve, it will not ruin the life of caps pilots, it is not going to make caps useless, or whatever other doom scenario you've thought up so far. Fact of the matter is, it's forced through a heavy change to where some alliances are basing themselves, it's forced through changes in how they deal with and defend space, and it's opened up space to smaller entities (not as small as a proper sov system would give access to, but it's still opened up to smaller entities). Russians are making a comeback f.ex, which I'm fairly certain they would not have done if Phoebe hadn't hit, because they would've been unable to make much headway against the already entrenched big coalitions (unless, of course, they created their own coalition and either hit in multiple places or just somehow outblobbed the other guy, which brings us straight back to B-R.

Andy Landen wrote:
When quotes surrounded what you "interpreted", it is still called "misquoting". When the interpretations are very far off, it is called "spinning."

That said, your summation here is quite accurate. Though something tells me that you do not see how anyone can hold those points of view at exactly the same time.

I wonder how it can be "misquoted" or "spinning", if it's "quite accurate". But please, tell me more about how we can go from "caps are useless, people should get their SP refunded, EVE is doomed if CCP doesn't revert this as all vets will unsubscribe" to "well actually the jump changes play right into PL's hands, CCP are obviously in PL's pocket" without doing a complete 180.

Andy Landen wrote:
I am pretty sure that people who fly caps, in general, do not like the nerf to jump distance and jump fatigue.

There's a huge chasm of difference between "I don't like having my favorite toy nerfed" to "I don't like the nerf so I will unsubscribe all my 2348234 accounts effective immediately".

Yes, some people will be that shortsighted that they can't see what the benefits of the new ruleset is, you're a good example of this. Others see what the new ruleset adds to the game, and thinks that's rather neat. I'm one of those.

I still don't like the 5LY change or the fatigue, on a personal basis, but I see the point behind it, I see why it's necessary, and I see the benefits to the game as a whole with this change in. And on that basis, I like it.

Andy Landen wrote:
It is also true that most people live in high sec and do not notice null sec (according to the charts, anyhow). But does CCP want to intrigue people with null sec, or finish her off? Why kill at least half the systems in the Eve universe? Will I hide behind "mother Concord" if there is nothing fun to do in high sec? If I am still around by the time they get to it, I might take a look, but many initiatives stagnate for extremely long periods of time; remember the station walking? That door is still locked. If CCP does not provide good content, then I will find something else fun to do in some other game. And no, I don't call "being a target" good content.

70% of my chars are in hisec, and never leave hisec. How do you think that skews the charts?

As for "Intrigue people with nullsec or finish her off/kill at least half the systems in EVE", uhh ... huh? There's no part of this change which is going to be finishing off or killing off anything except old dinosaurs who are so dead set on a single game mechanic that any change to it (which isn't a buff) is called "micromanaging" and triggers a ragequit in said person. It's a simple change which, admittedly does have an impact on how you behave in game, but it hasn't reduced the effectiveness of either a carrier or a dread once it is properly used, so the only reason one would ragequit over this is because you're shortsighted, impatient, or has an entitlement issue.

The main difference carrier/dread/supercarrier/titan pilots'll notice is the fact they'll have to rebase more often, they can't jump where they used to (although that's something the FC etc takes care of, so the pilots don't really care), and they'll do more short trips or trips where they have to wait x minutes between some jumps. Apart from that there'll be negiligible changes to how JF and rorqual pilots operate, worst case they'll spend a few more minutes on each run. All things normal people can live with without ragequitting.
Jed Dye
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#8149 - 2014-11-17 14:02:14 UTC
NO JUST ****ING NO, I can understand the fatigue part but wtf is this with jump range, my carrier is now stuck in low sec surrounded by pirates, I cannot jump out of range so I am stuck in there midst can ccp move my carrier or what ?.
I have just resubbed a few days ago and now want my money back....
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8150 - 2014-11-17 19:04:44 UTC
Jed Dye wrote:
NO JUST ****ING NO, I can understand the fatigue part but wtf is this with jump range, my carrier is now stuck in low sec surrounded by pirates, I cannot jump out of range so I am stuck in there midst can ccp move my carrier or what ?.
I have just resubbed a few days ago and now want my money back....

The reason behind the jump range nerf is to add more chokepoints to the map.
Maric Calenham
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#8151 - 2014-11-20 21:29:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Maric Calenham
I would just like to say that this expansion is going to be another incarna. I don't hang around in null anymore but when I did been in a small group you relied on jump bridges and getting supplies in from cap ships. It wont solve the problem of solving the issues in low and null sec but will just make every day life a grind.

I for one will not be resubbing my accounts not solely for this reason but I will list the key things whilst I have peoples attention, these also might be why the player base is shrinking.

* Manipulated Plex prices
* Features that are never completely finished
* Features that have too many loopholes to be effective ( War-Declaration, tags for security status for example )
* Unimaginative Direction, when I used to play regular, expansions held new content, wormholes, incursions, do we really need an expansion for new cloaking animations?

So thanks for the fish, but i'm done
Arronicus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#8152 - 2014-11-21 12:32:21 UTC
Jed Dye wrote:
NO JUST ****ING NO, I can understand the fatigue part but wtf is this with jump range, my carrier is now stuck in low sec surrounded by pirates, I cannot jump out of range so I am stuck in there midst can ccp move my carrier or what ?.
I have just resubbed a few days ago and now want my money back....


Jump directly from your station, to another station with a good undock. Aside from the life of your alt lighting the cyno, its perfectly safe.
Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#8153 - 2014-11-21 14:47:01 UTC
Arronicus wrote:
Jed Dye wrote:
NO JUST ****ING NO, I can understand the fatigue part but wtf is this with jump range, my carrier is now stuck in low sec surrounded by pirates, I cannot jump out of range so I am stuck in there midst can ccp move my carrier or what ?.
I have just resubbed a few days ago and now want my money back....


Jump directly from your station, to another station with a good undock. Aside from the life of your alt lighting the cyno, its perfectly safe.



Because some systems are further than the jump range now allowed. Again, this proves that this "idea" wasn't as clearly thought out because some systems are no longer reachable except by jump gates.


I also don't understand the timer for JF pilots, who now cannot "ride the lightening" by undocking, jumping, docking .... then repeating the cycles to move quickly between cynos. Now you're waiting until you are "mentally" ready to jump again.


Too much change, too quickly, and sadly it cannot be justified.


Valkyrie Mystics
Malevolence.
#8154 - 2014-11-22 11:31:16 UTC
Phoebe kills 0.0. nerf all Ships in ther space and bring back TiDi and all fight in 0.0 Oops

THX cc(c)p, now we travel 20J in 2h, one way. EVE in slowmotion Twisted plex run in realtime..


CCP let 0.0 die and open a new World in WH space ..
Tesal
#8155 - 2014-11-30 04:48:14 UTC
1. Won't these changes make it more likely that you can field caps in defense of your space without having to worry about getting hot dropped by a major alliance? This makes it safer for smaller groups to move into Null and field caps defensively. Caps on defense don't need to jump.

2. Null sec has been dying a slow death. The game has become static and boring. Something had to be done. Like it or not, CCP has started to fix that. Their solution is to make travel over large distances take time. It really doesn't matter if a few quit now, who would otherwise quit 6 months from now anyway from boredom.

3. Can I have your stuff.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8156 - 2014-11-30 16:48:22 UTC
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Arronicus wrote:
Jed Dye wrote:
NO JUST ****ING NO, I can understand the fatigue part but wtf is this with jump range, my carrier is now stuck in low sec surrounded by pirates, I cannot jump out of range so I am stuck in there midst can ccp move my carrier or what ?.
I have just resubbed a few days ago and now want my money back....


Jump directly from your station, to another station with a good undock. Aside from the life of your alt lighting the cyno, its perfectly safe.


Because some systems are further than the jump range now allowed. Again, this proves that this "idea" wasn't as clearly thought out because some systems are no longer reachable except by jump gates.

Don't worry, once nullsec industry's in a much better place than it has been so far, JFs'll probably get nerfed even further.

Balder Verdandi wrote:
I also don't understand the timer for JF pilots, who now cannot "ride the lightening" by undocking, jumping, docking .... then repeating the cycles to move quickly between cynos. Now you're waiting until you are "mentally" ready to jump again.

Yes. It's a short timer, it's not a problem.

Balder Verdandi wrote:
Too much change, too quickly, and sadly it cannot be justified.

Oh, no, we see how things have exploded as justification enough. It'll get even better once the sov system is overhauled, however.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8157 - 2014-11-30 16:51:05 UTC
Valkyrie Mystics wrote:
Phoebe kills 0.0. nerf all Ships in ther space and bring back TiDi and all fight in 0.0 Oops

THX cc(c)p, now we travel 20J in 2h, one way. EVE in slowmotion Twisted plex run in realtime...

Simple solution: stagger the pilots going through a gate. Duh.

Valkyrie Mystics wrote:
CCP let 0.0 die and open a new World in WH space ..

If you want WHs, then go to WHs. Nobody's stopping you.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#8158 - 2014-11-30 23:05:53 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Jed Dye wrote:
NO JUST ****ING NO, I can understand the fatigue part but wtf is this with jump range, my carrier is now stuck in low sec surrounded by pirates, I cannot jump out of range so I am stuck in there midst can ccp move my carrier or what ?.
I have just resubbed a few days ago and now want my money back....

The reason behind the jump range nerf is to add more chokepoints to the map.

Sorry but that is just bull.. The reason behind jump range nerfs was to stop large capital groups dominating nulsec with easy movement of capitals.

It has failed.
Will continue to fail because the only ones who can move capitals freely in nulsec are Large Capital Groups.

Fatigue is also a massive failure as it does not affect the large groups as much as it does small groups.

All in all PHOEBE is a massive boon to large nulsec groups and has nerfed any smaller groups chances of gaining space.


CCP has once again caved to the likes of Goons and handed them exactly what thy needed to continue running sov nul.

EveOnline is dead, GoonsOnline is here to stay

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#8159 - 2014-11-30 23:24:07 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
The reason behind the jump range nerf is to add more chokepoints to the map.

Sorry but that is just bull.. The reason behind jump range nerfs was to stop large capital groups dominating nulsec with easy movement of capitals.[/quote]
I'm pretty sure the biggest hindrance to large capital groups dominating nullsec with easy movement of capitals isn't the range itself, but the fatigue part of the nerf. Yes, the range nerf does increase the impact the fatigue nerf has, but the main impact the range nerf has is the fact that there are now a lot more chokepoints on the map.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
It has failed.
Will continue to fail because the only ones who can move capitals freely in nulsec are Large Capital Groups.

We're currently being attacked in apparently 3 places at once. We do not move our capitals from fountain to venal and back to fountain. There's a reason for that. So no, it hasn't failed, it is indeed hindering us from derping around willy nilly with our caps, even if we're big.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
Fatigue is also a massive failure as it does not affect the large groups as much as it does small groups.

If CCP make a change which'll make anything harder, it'll benefit the large groups. If CCP make a change which'll make anything easier, it'll benefit the large groups. If CCP make no change at all to anything, it'll benefit the large groups.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
All in all PHOEBE is a massive boon to large nulsec groups and has nerfed any smaller groups chances of gaining space.

I'm sure the south-east are going to disagree with you there.

Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP has once again caved to the likes of Goons and handed them exactly what thy needed to continue running sov nul.

EveOnline is dead, GoonsOnline is here to stay

If you didn't want caps nerfed, then perhaps PL and the gang shouldn't have tossed them around with such abandon the last 3 years.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#8160 - 2014-11-30 23:27:36 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:


Balder Verdandi wrote:
Too much change, too quickly, and sadly it cannot be justified.

Oh, no, we see how things have exploded as justification enough. It'll get even better once the sov system is overhauled, however.

CCP is creating a game of drones, overlords say jump and everyone jumps. (If you don't jump you are threatened with expulsion)

Large dominating groups ran nulsec prior to phoebe, they still run it now. Post sov changes (if they ever happen) large groups will still dominate.

For nulsec to become playable again CCP need to get rid of (the need for) Coalitions altogether, or at least set a limit on how many members any one group can have.

You will never see "new" content while the status quo of "we can put more ships on the field than you" exists.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.