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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
DeadDuck
Hostile.
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#5161 - 2014-10-03 09:52:59 UTC
Hilti Enaka wrote:
Just received this:

Quote:
Caps
From: xxxxx
To: xxxxx
Dear alliance members

In light of the proposed changes to capital deployment, we have at leadership level decided to focus our activities on capital manufacturing for the next 3 months.

I want every alliance member concentrating on:
1. buying capital pilots that are currently going on firesale
2. buying and building capitals

A list of strategic systems will be posted on our forums of where to store your capitals. Many players are claiming this change will stop force projection, we thought about it and rather than not adapt our aim is to have a capital fleet at our disposal in any area of the map. Our solution is quite simple focus on capital readiness by having capitals "to-go" in any area of eve. It will only take you 20 minutes - 30 minutes to use the jump bridges to high sec and move your pod across New Eden to our strategically placed capitals.

You all know me and I am all about adapting, this is us adapting.

See you on the battlefield
Alliance leaders


Gotta love this.



TBH I dont know if it is a fake or not. But if it is true and that alliance leader thinks all their grunts are going to start buying Cap alts and Dreads to be "stored in strategic positions", that guy is completly delusional and doesn't even know what are the average grunt financial capabilitys and their willing to spend isks "just in case".
Sigras
Conglomo
#5162 - 2014-10-03 09:53:43 UTC
Gho Higyidr wrote:
Just feels like too big of a step back from modern EVE Online to me. I remember the days before JF's and I lived in Drone Lands during those days. I made things locally but making the trip to empire for the bigger necessities.. wasn't FUN at all. It took VERY careful planning and execution. It's not cut and dry, it's tedious and time consuming.. tbh not really the kind of fun I'm after in EVE.

yeah I know ... I mean God forbid I have to put thought and effort into a game right? I mean why think when everything should be handed to you on a silver platter right?

Gho Higyidr wrote:
Think about it. JF's already consume a TON more fuel than they did... My JF chokes down a full hold (100ish K isotopes) in a round trip trek across my home to maintain basic things. It's very expensive and already time-consuming enough as it is, even with help. With this JF nerf inbound, I will have to resort to old-school methods of tower and logistics maintenance when my Jump Fatigue is too high... It's not fun and it's not worth the time I'd rather spend shooting all the things.

Consider doing what every thinking person on earth does and rolling that cost into the price of your finished product...

Gho Higyidr wrote:
Another point that irks me: Ok so Capitals are given double dead ass-cheeks. Fine. But now we already have to go a huge amount of jumps for a fight just to have said fights not happen. Even WITH titan bridging.. that's enough to **** even the most patient off. NOW... with the nerf, titan pilots may not want to waste their fatigue timers on bridging and jumping around non-super-serious-business fleets.... so we adapt and go gate to gate... with 100 or so people... 20+ jumps.... likely NOT to get a fight and have to turn around and fly all the way back. In big ships or slow-warping ships.. that's just not... fun? Maybe it is for some of you.

Here's a radical idea... instead of surrounding yourself with 30 jumps worth of blues, try setting the guys 3 jumps over to red and seeing how it goes...

Yes this cuts into your security... yes that is intentional.

Gho Higyidr wrote:
Another point: If this is an attempt to break up this MASSIVE throbbing blue donut environment... I think CCP is sadly mistaken. The coalitions have been around too long to just poof to dust over one or two gigantic nerfs.

Then may I ask what fantastic ideas you have for breaking up the blue doughnut? because unless you have a better idea consider keeping your mouth shut. Suggestions are helpful, complaints are not.

Gho Higyidr wrote:
I could be wrong.. LOL

you are.. LOL
Grave Digger Eriker
Doomheim
#5163 - 2014-10-03 09:54:15 UTC
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They will need to wait 6 min before continuing travel. That will hardly be a serious issue for them.
If you make JF wait a tiny bit, you are just pissing their pilots but you are not achieving the content that you wanted
This!!!
Kagura Nikon wrote:
JF will not take a single gate unless they need to wait around 10 minutes to try again.
Think again If they have billions in cargo of person assets they will not take gates PERIOD!! They may unsub instead.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
Black ops are NOT strategical weapons. They should not get stuck as carriers. They are tactical assets, their mobility cannot be impaired so much.
And JF are tactical assets how?
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#5164 - 2014-10-03 09:54:49 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Grave Digger Eriker wrote:
So you produce all your fuel blocks locally then!!!


So I guess you don't know about ice compression and our better than highsec refineries. The towers will continue to be fuelled.

So.....you import the ice. And I'm sure all of the ice for your thousands of towers will continue to flow into your space without disruption when the new changes hit.

See, here's the thing baltec. Unlike some of my compatriots, I don't think goons, or the CFC at large are particularly stupid. I think someone ran the numbers and realized your space, with its thousands of towers, just got a whole lot bigger. Cool
Hsu Li
F.U.N. Inc.
The Ancients.
#5165 - 2014-10-03 09:55:01 UTC
Interesting change. I have would suggest 2 changes though.

1) Add point of origin: Every time you use jump drive it checks if you are returning to your origin. If that is the case it adds only reduced jump timer and fatigue. Otherwise it calculates as normal. Origin can expire after certain time (30 mins?).
Example: You start at A. Origin is empty. Jump to B and add normal timer and fatigue, sets A as origin. Jump back to A and add reduced timer and fatigue as you are getting "home". Either remove origin or set it to B. Jump to C and it add normally and sets A as origin.

2) Allow setting medical clone to remote station, but make it to take time to actually set depending on your skill level and distance. If you get podded before it finishes creating medical clone you lose SP you gained since you started.
Example: 100M SP char have clone in station A. He set it up to station B 50 LY away and is notified it will take 12 hours to change. He then gets podded before it changes and wakes up in station A and loses all progress made in the meantime.
Another example: 500k cyno alt changes to station 15 LY away and is notified it will take 10 mins to update.
Sigras
Conglomo
#5166 - 2014-10-03 09:55:46 UTC
Andiedeath wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Tribal Trogdor wrote:
About caps jumping gates:

1) Carrier gate camps - If they sit 0 on gate, they have more than enough subcap killing potential along with enough RR potential to wait out 60 seconds of aggro if needed. This wouldn't be so bad in null as there are bubbles to keep them on the other side, but in low, how is this to be countered? Breaking a fair amount in under 60 seconds would take a fair amount of dreads, which have to siege and get stuck for 5 minutes, while the carriers are only stuck for 60. If the carriers jump out via the gate, they can align out, blap anything that might be sat on the other side to stop them (as most are stuck next door and the real DPS cant follow) and dock up. Even in null though, the dreads are still stuck out of the fight, unless of course they burn to the gate, jump in, and hope the archons hadn't reapproached in the time O.o

2) Cyno Jammers - Drop cyno next door, warp to gate, jump in. Kinda kills the point of it, yea?


- If you can get tackle on the other side, capitals generally take a while to get back to the gate. It ought to be manageable.

- There's still probably tactical advantage in forcing the enemy cap fleet to jump in through a gate.

What about a mass based / randomized gate spawn distance similar to that of wormholes? This would make it fair across the board and random your chance of being able to crash gates... It would of course also affect sub caps.

because more unpredictable randomness that cannot be played around is EXACTLY what this game needs right?
Aiyshimin
Yamagata Syndicate
Shadow Cartel
#5167 - 2014-10-03 09:56:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


The bulk are by far fine with nerfing jumps, the only sticking point is the impact upon JF for most people. Personally I also don't like the idea of DD in lowsec too.


I'm not sure if I'm even comfortable about the whole idea of using supers in lowsec, since they can't be built there.

Shroud O
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5168 - 2014-10-03 09:57:47 UTC
do these changes allow the Rorqual to enter Hi Sec?

Or can it just get into Low Sec and Nul?

Thanks in advance.
Tahnil
Gunboat Commando
#5169 - 2014-10-03 09:58:01 UTC
Without being able to read the whole thread, my two cents: You can‘t expect to break stagnation, and at the same time leave everything the same.

So, CCP, please go for it.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5170 - 2014-10-03 09:58:07 UTC
To the community, on the effects of the changes on the empires. I think both sides are a bit wrong.

No goons empire will not simply collapse, but baltec is not right on saying it will not have an effect. With only these changes, disregarding any changes to sov holding. They will release some space, but much less than most people believe. They will probably just retreat a bit on some corners to behind some choke points that can be more easily blockaded. They will change their empire layout and put their real members closer to the inner borders and entrances and the renters will live in the backyard.

What will change mainly for goons is that they will not simply be able to make a weekend travel to providence for lols. That will be too far for most members to bother. So they probably would like to make some of the pieces they release of their empire (that can be as short as a single region in total, to be populated by other groups to be their new theme park. So if they lose some good amount of space will be by their own will, just to have a closer theme park.


There will be changes, much smaller than the NPC corps guys posting here say, and larger than what baltec defend. The borders between the superpowers are mostly around choke points already. So if you see any changes will be 3-4 systems on one corner, 3-4 on other and the redeployment of the members INSIDE the current space. Foe example they probably will have to put some real membership presence in delve and the important member forces should not stay in deep pure blind. With some wise deployment they can still hold their empire. The difference is that they will need a Strategical deployment plan with forces and fronts defined. But surely something CFC has people able enough to find out.

Larger changes depend on the changes to sov holding.

One thing I foresee is smaller groups with capital forces using the last day of full jump drive power to make some deep insertions in some of the empires where they will be able to wrreck havoc on the next day for free. But htat will be a 1-2 day period of chaos at most.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5171 - 2014-10-03 09:59:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Kagura Nikon
Grave Digger Eriker wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
They will need to wait 6 min before continuing travel. That will hardly be a serious issue for them.
If you make JF wait a tiny bit, you are just pissing their pilots but you are not achieving the content that you wanted
This!!!
Kagura Nikon wrote:
JF will not take a single gate unless they need to wait around 10 minutes to try again.
Think again If they have billions in cargo of person assets they will not take gates PERIOD!! They may unsub instead.

Kagura Nikon wrote:
Black ops are NOT strategical weapons. They should not get stuck as carriers. They are tactical assets, their mobility cannot be impaired so much.
And JF are tactical assets how?



That is why JF are already gettign MUCH smaller impact than the other capitals. Are you mind limited or purposely trying to not read?

No no one worth half a cent will unsub. If you are the type of guy that uses JF either you are doing for the well of your group and then you WILL GET some scouts. It is NOT hard we did thousands of times with normal freighters in past, or you are not interested in the group you only care for making isk. Then you will just change your way of making isk.


JF CANNOT be allowed to escape this hammer. In fact they must be smashed a bit more so that the desired effect is achieved. Sure they can and maybe should get something in return, like more capacity.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Sheeana Harb
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5172 - 2014-10-03 09:59:32 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Sheeana Harb wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Is the balance for Black Ops final?
No. Please give feedback!


Given the niche of Black Ops (jump in, kill a target and leave as fast as possible), could you please consider the jump cooldown timer affecting overall performance of Black Ops, rather than preventing it from jumping?

Let's say if a pilot is in Black Ops, he can still jump, even with the 'orange' timer, but the timer itself would penalize ship's tracking, damage, resistances, speed, ect? Black Ops usually strike with an overwhelming force, where these penalties don't matter much, but when they are counter-dropped (or when targetting something bigger), the defenders would have an upper hand.


I don't know we'd want to add to the complexity like that, but we're definitely still looking at BO. Thanks for the feedback :)


I understand you don't necessarily want to add additional layer of complexity, but counter-argument can be made that Black Ops ships aren't entry level hulls. They require well over 120 days worth of training. If someone is dedicated enought to invest this amount of time, it's reasonable to expect they have advanced knowledge and awareness of the game to understand that the jump fatigue mechanic works differently with a Black Ops hull.

If Black Ops were to have the same jump fatigue mechanic as all the other capital ships (exclude JFs), it would be a nightmare for fleet commanders to keep track on everyone's cooldown before jumping out of a system (i.e. ensuring noone has been left behind), because innevitably pilots will have different cooldowns.


On a different note: Could you please consider adding a jump cooldown notification icon to the Fleet window next to each pilot so fleet commanders can quickly see who is unable to jump?

gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5173 - 2014-10-03 10:00:30 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Tribal Trogdor wrote:
About caps jumping gates:

1) Carrier gate camps - If they sit 0 on gate, they have more than enough subcap killing potential along with enough RR potential to wait out 60 seconds of aggro if needed. This wouldn't be so bad in null as there are bubbles to keep them on the other side, but in low, how is this to be countered? Breaking a fair amount in under 60 seconds would take a fair amount of dreads, which have to siege and get stuck for 5 minutes, while the carriers are only stuck for 60. If the carriers jump out via the gate, they can align out, blap anything that might be sat on the other side to stop them (as most are stuck next door and the real DPS cant follow) and dock up. Even in null though, the dreads are still stuck out of the fight, unless of course they burn to the gate, jump in, and hope the archons hadn't reapproached in the time O.o

2) Cyno Jammers - Drop cyno next door, warp to gate, jump in. Kinda kills the point of it, yea?


- If you can get tackle on the other side, capitals generally take a while to get back to the gate. It ought to be manageable.

- There's still probably tactical advantage in forcing the enemy cap fleet to jump in through a gate.



i'm sorry, what?
so, your answer to this "new" capital gate camps is: from now on, to kill them you need to bring not only enough ppl to kill the camp, but you need to bring even more ppl in case they jump the gate....
so your answer is... "bring more ppl"???!
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#5174 - 2014-10-03 10:00:48 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Gregor Parud wrote:
So why are you still whining in this thread then, surely it's not because of the "little guy".


Its whining when you are giving feedback in a feedback thread.

The bulk are by far fine with nerfing jumps, the only sticking point is the impact upon JF for most people. Personally I also don't like the idea of DD in lowsec too.


Ah right, lots of CFC "feedback" in this thread :) JF change is part of the whole solution, things getting more difficult and requiring more effort results in changing situations, away from the mass/bulk/blob approach. Every little bit helps and I hope that with the other changes that'll come they'll hammer down on that even more.

Also, low sec DD is fine for people who fly around in smaller, manageable groups without cap support. They don't care about DD.
Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#5175 - 2014-10-03 10:01:13 UTC
Hsu Li wrote:
Interesting change. I have would suggest 2 changes though.

1) Add point of origin: Every time you use jump drive it checks if you are returning to your origin. If that is the case it adds only reduced jump timer and fatigue. Otherwise it calculates as normal. Origin can expire after certain time (30 mins?).
Example: You start at A. Origin is empty. Jump to B and add normal timer and fatigue, sets A as origin. Jump back to A and add reduced timer and fatigue as you are getting "home". Either remove origin or set it to B. Jump to C and it add normally and sets A as origin.

2) Allow setting medical clone to remote station, but make it to take time to actually set depending on your skill level and distance. If you get podded before it finishes creating medical clone you lose SP you gained since you started.
Example: 100M SP char have clone in station A. He set it up to station B 50 LY away and is notified it will take 12 hours to change. He then gets podded before it changes and wakes up in station A and loses all progress made in the meantime.
Another example: 500k cyno alt changes to station 15 LY away and is notified it will take 10 mins to update.



While these are interesting ideas, we as a community always do this crap. We try to lessen the blow of a completely horrendous idea. We should be saying, NO this is terrible and will not participate in the eventual just as crappy "compromised " nerf of a mechanic that is not the true problem. Fix SOV CCP...

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"

FU 2
Perkone
Caldari State
#5176 - 2014-10-03 10:01:27 UTC
I can foresee Jita covered in supercaps :D

You want some? Come get some!

Anthar Thebess
#5177 - 2014-10-03 10:01:38 UTC
Jumping back to origin should give the same amount of fatigue.
Those changes are good.
Now those big blobs will have to think twice what moons they want to hold.
Unless they want pump their towers every 2 days in scimitars.
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5178 - 2014-10-03 10:04:44 UTC
Murauke wrote:
Kagura Nikon wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Talvorian Dex wrote:
I'm going to make one post, with the hope that the devs are still reading this thread. I'm gonna say this once.

Nerfing capitals into the ground is one thing (and that's what you're doing). I'm fine with that. But this is draconian.

More importantly, you're also obliterating so much more that relies on jump bridges, jump engines, and high-volume movement.

What happened to CCP Seagull saying, "We want to support content enablers!" (those who handle logistics, fuel, etc. that allow others to enjoy their gameplay)? With these changes, you've basically put your arm around them, cuddled them gently, then threw them to the ground and curbstomped them until they had a mouthful of broken teeth and bloody gums.



Here is your content enabler. Form a fleet and escort a freighter.


The fact that you don't understand why that's not tenable long-term is the same reason why I'm not going to argue with you about it.



Peopel did that for YEARS before JF appeared. IT is sustainable. You just need a dozen peopel REALLY logged in and not on jabber waiting a ping. You know.. REALLY playing the game.


You mean treating this game like an army barracks with alarm clock ops?


If in a 3 thousand member group you cannot find 20 people in your timezone interested in scout and escort a group of 4-5 freighters for the bennefit of their allaince. THEN YOU SHOUDL DISBAND, because then you do not have an alliance, you have a bunch of parasites.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#5179 - 2014-10-03 10:06:38 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


If you're attacking a dread sitting sieged on top of a gate and you don't have tackle in place on the other side by the time his cycle is over, I'm not sure you really deserve the kill tbh.


On a related note - I take it it will be impossible to jump whilst under gate cloak?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5180 - 2014-10-03 10:08:42 UTC
gascanu wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Tribal Trogdor wrote:
About caps jumping gates:

1) Carrier gate camps - If they sit 0 on gate, they have more than enough subcap killing potential along with enough RR potential to wait out 60 seconds of aggro if needed. This wouldn't be so bad in null as there are bubbles to keep them on the other side, but in low, how is this to be countered? Breaking a fair amount in under 60 seconds would take a fair amount of dreads, which have to siege and get stuck for 5 minutes, while the carriers are only stuck for 60. If the carriers jump out via the gate, they can align out, blap anything that might be sat on the other side to stop them (as most are stuck next door and the real DPS cant follow) and dock up. Even in null though, the dreads are still stuck out of the fight, unless of course they burn to the gate, jump in, and hope the archons hadn't reapproached in the time O.o

2) Cyno Jammers - Drop cyno next door, warp to gate, jump in. Kinda kills the point of it, yea?


- If you can get tackle on the other side, capitals generally take a while to get back to the gate. It ought to be manageable.

- There's still probably tactical advantage in forcing the enemy cap fleet to jump in through a gate.



i'm sorry, what?
so, your answer to this "new" capital gate camps is: from now on, to kill them you need to bring not only enough ppl to kill the camp, but you need to bring even more ppl in case they jump the gate....
so your answer is... "bring more ppl"???!


You mean 1 or 2 extra HICS.. WOW what a huge problem for 0.0 alliances.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"