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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5141 - 2014-10-03 09:33:14 UTC
Please Turn wrote:
Gho Higyidr wrote:


Just feels like too big of a step back from modern EVE Online to me. I remember the days before JF's and I lived in Drone Lands during those days. I made things locally but making the trip to empire for the bigger necessities.. wasn't FUN at all. It took VERY careful planning and execution.

words

I could be wrong.. LOL


This is absolutely fabulous. Oh my god, the IRONY. I can't stop laughing. Pirate


yea the irony, oh my god! because spending hours doing a few jumps then more hours waiting cloacked for that camp to go away, it's fun. really, really fun!
but yea, the IRONY...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5142 - 2014-10-03 09:33:30 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah...that explains it. I was wondering why Baltec & friends where so adamantly opposed to these changes, even while other notable goons (e.g. Endie's post on reddit) seemed in favor.

While it is true that the CFC holds hundreds upon hundreds of money moons, the truth is that those make up a rather small portion of their overall pos holdings. Moon goo is not what it once was. The number of regular pos's in CFC space, operated by CFC dudes almost certainly numbers in the thousands.

Think of it, thousands upon thousands of towers crying "feed me! feed me!" And the only way to get fuel to those towers is by 5 light year JF. With fatigue. Oh, it will be positively glorious.

It is true that these changes will hurt the little guy, but here's something that defies malcanis' law. You see, pos ownership does not increase linearly with entity size. It is not proportionate. It is not linear. No my friends, some of the bigger entities have far more than their equal share of towers. Twisted

JF's allow a small cadre to manage a disproportionately large number of towers. A nerf to JF's is a dagger aimed straight at the heart of CFC logistics.


We use blockade runners to fuel towers. They warp as fast as interceptors so they don't care about travel by gates.
Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#5143 - 2014-10-03 09:35:30 UTC
So why are you still whining in this thread then, surely it's not because of the "little guy".
Gho Higyidr
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#5144 - 2014-10-03 09:37:10 UTC
gascanu wrote:
Please Turn wrote:
Gho Higyidr wrote:


Just feels like too big of a step back from modern EVE Online to me. I remember the days before JF's and I lived in Drone Lands during those days. I made things locally but making the trip to empire for the bigger necessities.. wasn't FUN at all. It took VERY careful planning and execution.

words

I could be wrong.. LOL


This is absolutely fabulous. Oh my god, the IRONY. I can't stop laughing. Pirate


yea the irony, oh my god! because spending hours doing a few jumps then more hours waiting cloacked for that camp to go away, it's fun. really, really fun!
but yea, the IRONY...


Well it could be far MORE than hours. :p Think in the grand scheme of things. I need to give someone serious props if they can gate-camp for a week or two straight.

I have means to adapt to these changes, It's just a literal pain in the ass and I think it will do nothing good for EVE on a logistics scale.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#5145 - 2014-10-03 09:38:12 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah...that explains it. I was wondering why Baltec & friends where so adamantly opposed to these changes, even while other notable goons (e.g. Endie's post on reddit) seemed in favor.

While it is true that the CFC holds hundreds upon hundreds of money moons, the truth is that those make up a rather small portion of their overall pos holdings. Moon goo is not what it once was. The number of pos's in CFC space, operated by CFC dudes almost certainly numbers in the thousands.

Think of it, thousands upon thousands of towers crying "feed me! feed me!" And the only way to get fuel to those towers is by 5 light year JF. With fatigue. Oh, it will be positively glorious.

It is true that these changes will hurt the little guy, but here's something that defies malcanis' law. You see, pos ownership does not increase linearly with entity size. It is not proportionate. It is not linear. No my friends, some of the bigger entities have far more than their equal share of towers. Twisted

JF's allow a small cadre to manage a disproportionately large number of towers. A nerf to JF's is a dagger aimed straight at the heart of CFC logistics.

If you actually think this is going to affect us more than the smaller guys, then I have a bridge to sell you.

I don't know whether it will affect you more, per se.

What I do know is how many towers the little guys have. And I have a reasonable guess as to the amount of towers you have. I also have a passing knowledge of eve geography. I can put 5 LY +multiplicative fatigue cooldown + thousands of towers together. Spanning many regions, no less.

Will it affect you more? Who's to say? "Affect" is a difficult think to quantify, it doesn't come with SI units.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5146 - 2014-10-03 09:39:12 UTC
Gregor Parud wrote:
So why are you still whining in this thread then, surely it's not because of the "little guy".


Its whining when you are giving feedback in a feedback thread.

The bulk are by far fine with nerfing jumps, the only sticking point is the impact upon JF for most people. Personally I also don't like the idea of DD in lowsec too.
FU 2
Perkone
Caldari State
#5147 - 2014-10-03 09:39:29 UTC  |  Edited by: FU 2
Lol. Guess I will forget the nullsec and lowsec and just stay in RvB in high sec and bring all the supercaps there :D

This is the most step back change for me. Good luck RedFrog and their superb hauling services, some guys there fly daily, many times a day - making a living. That's gone now if I understood the multiplication forces correctly, even with the 10%.

You want some? Come get some!

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5148 - 2014-10-03 09:40:04 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah...that explains it. I was wondering why Baltec & friends where so adamantly opposed to these changes, even while other notable goons (e.g. Endie's post on reddit) seemed in favor.

While it is true that the CFC holds hundreds upon hundreds of money moons, the truth is that those make up a rather small portion of their overall pos holdings. Moon goo is not what it once was. The number of pos's in CFC space, operated by CFC dudes almost certainly numbers in the thousands.

Think of it, thousands upon thousands of towers crying "feed me! feed me!" And the only way to get fuel to those towers is by 5 light year JF. With fatigue. Oh, it will be positively glorious.

It is true that these changes will hurt the little guy, but here's something that defies malcanis' law. You see, pos ownership does not increase linearly with entity size. It is not proportionate. It is not linear. No my friends, some of the bigger entities have far more than their equal share of towers. Twisted

JF's allow a small cadre to manage a disproportionately large number of towers. A nerf to JF's is a dagger aimed straight at the heart of CFC logistics.

If you actually think this is going to affect us more than the smaller guys, then I have a bridge to sell you.

I don't know whether it will affect you more, per se.

What I do know is how many towers the little guys have. And I have a reasonable guess as to the amount of towers you have. I also have a passing knowledge of eve geography. I can put 5 LY +multiplicative fatigue cooldown + thousands of towers together. Spanning many regions, no less.

Will it affect you more? Who's to say? "Affect" is a difficult think to quantify, it doesn't come with SI units.


We don't use JF to fuel towers.
PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#5149 - 2014-10-03 09:41:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah...that explains it. I was wondering why Baltec & friends where so adamantly opposed to these changes, even while other notable goons (e.g. Endie's post on reddit) seemed in favor.

While it is true that the CFC holds hundreds upon hundreds of money moons, the truth is that those make up a rather small portion of their overall pos holdings. Moon goo is not what it once was. The number of regular pos's in CFC space, operated by CFC dudes almost certainly numbers in the thousands.

Think of it, thousands upon thousands of towers crying "feed me! feed me!" And the only way to get fuel to those towers is by 5 light year JF. With fatigue. Oh, it will be positively glorious.

It is true that these changes will hurt the little guy, but here's something that defies malcanis' law. You see, pos ownership does not increase linearly with entity size. It is not proportionate. It is not linear. No my friends, some of the bigger entities have far more than their equal share of towers. Twisted

JF's allow a small cadre to manage a disproportionately large number of towers. A nerf to JF's is a dagger aimed straight at the heart of CFC logistics.


We use blockade runners to fuel towers. They warp as fast as interceptors so they don't care about travel by gates.

And where do those blockade runners get all their fuel? It's 65 light years from your southern holdings in delve to deklein.
Grave Digger Eriker
Doomheim
#5150 - 2014-10-03 09:43:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Grave Digger Eriker
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Ah...that explains it. I was wondering why Baltec & friends where so adamantly opposed to these changes, even while other notable goons (e.g. Endie's post on reddit) seemed in favor.

While it is true that the CFC holds hundreds upon hundreds of money moons, the truth is that those make up a rather small portion of their overall pos holdings. Moon goo is not what it once was. The number of pos's in CFC space, operated by CFC dudes almost certainly numbers in the thousands.

Think of it, thousands upon thousands of towers crying "feed me! feed me!" And the only way to get fuel to those towers is by 5 light year JF. With fatigue. Oh, it will be positively glorious.

It is true that these changes will hurt the little guy, but here's something that defies malcanis' law. You see, pos ownership does not increase linearly with entity size. It is not proportionate. It is not linear. No my friends, some of the bigger entities have far more than their equal share of towers. Twisted

JF's allow a small cadre to manage a disproportionately large number of towers. A nerf to JF's is a dagger aimed straight at the heart of CFC logistics.

If you actually think this is going to affect us more than the smaller guys, then I have a bridge to sell you.

I don't know whether it will affect you more, per se.

What I do know is how many towers the little guys have. And I have a reasonable guess as to the amount of towers you have. I also have a passing knowledge of eve geography. I can put 5 LY +multiplicative fatigue cooldown + thousands of towers together. Spanning many regions, no less.

Will it affect you more? Who's to say? "Affect" is a difficult think to quantify, it doesn't come with SI units.


We don't use JF to fuel towers.
So you produce all your fuel blocks locally then!!! with racial isotopes that are not available in your region that would need importing. Don't think i've ever seen a 250 Deep Space transport gang!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5151 - 2014-10-03 09:43:31 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:

And where do those blockade runners get all their fuel? It's 65 light years from your southern holdings in delve to deklein.


You do know how fast those things warp right?
Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#5152 - 2014-10-03 09:44:56 UTC
Constructive criticism to CCP:

Change Jump Drive Calibration to a 10% increase in fatigue decay per level. It must be made to make it worth a long skill like that.

IT also reduces the issues of tooo long decay near the cap limit.




I think that the JF and Rorq. are taking it TOO easy. They will need to wait 6 min before continuing travel. That will hardly be a serious issue for them. Its the time to reload capacitor if they were not jumping to a station. I would make them receive 15% not 10% of the effects at least. Sided with my above suggestion would keep it to reasonable numbers. If you make JF wait a tiny bit, you are just pissing their pilots but you are not achieving the content that you wanted ( escort duties, supply lines that can be attacked). JF will not take a single gate unless they need to wait around 10 minutes to try again.


Black ops are NOT strategical weapons. They should not get stuck as carriers. They are tactical assets, their mobility cannot be impaired so much.

Make Black ops receive around 60% of the base numbers and their jump bridges the same. With eh changes proposed by me on JD calibration, that means they will still be innefective as a way of traveling, but means they probably can hunt and try at least 2, maybe 3 preys per tipical play session of a small group that uses black ops. A blackops must be able to jump their friends behind the starting blockades of the region, then the scout will look for a target and the black oips must be ready to work again with their pilots when that happens, probably on the vincinity of 30 minutes at most. If they need to wait 1 hours, then black ops are dead as tactical devices.

And please, hurry the changes to sov holding, the jump drive changes, because the time without the changes and wih the constraints on capital travel will be a dark age that should be as short as possible.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#5153 - 2014-10-03 09:46:15 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

And where do those blockade runners get all their fuel? It's 65 light years from your southern holdings in delve to deklein.


You do know how fast those things warp right?

Yeah, I do. So If you're saying you haul fuel blocks for all of your towers from deklein or Jita, I'm calling bullshit on that.Cool
Incidentally, 54 light years from your southern holdings to Jita.
Iv d'Este
Private Security Squad
#5154 - 2014-10-03 09:46:52 UTC
I think it's a good change. But you need to give the possibility to hotdrops through Black Ops within its portal, the home area.

It makes no sense to have a BO in the corporation and not be able to do bomber's and recon's teleportation.

For example.

Let bomber jumping through the BO portal from system A to system B. He gets tired. Then he jumps through the portal of the system B in C. It gets even more tired. Then he jumps out of the system C in A, it really tired.

But if he jumped in B, and the next jump he made from the system B in A, then the fatigue of this (B->A) and previos (A->B) jump invalidate or is many many times less.

You can enter it only for BO and all that passes through a portal BO. Thus, small groups will be able to control own space using diversionary tactics.
gascanu
Bearing Srl.
#5155 - 2014-10-03 09:47:19 UTC  |  Edited by: gascanu
Gho Higyidr wrote:
gascanu wrote:
Please Turn wrote:
Gho Higyidr wrote:


Just feels like too big of a step back from modern EVE Online to me. I remember the days before JF's and I lived in Drone Lands during those days. I made things locally but making the trip to empire for the bigger necessities.. wasn't FUN at all. It took VERY careful planning and execution.

words

I could be wrong.. LOL


This is absolutely fabulous. Oh my god, the IRONY. I can't stop laughing. Pirate


yea the irony, oh my god! because spending hours doing a few jumps then more hours waiting cloacked for that camp to go away, it's fun. really, really fun!
but yea, the IRONY...


Well it could be far MORE than hours. :p Think in the grand scheme of things. I need to give someone serious props if they can gate-camp for a week or two straight.

I have means to adapt to these changes, It's just a literal pain in the ass and I think it will do nothing good for EVE on a logistics scale.

i live in venal, and with the new 5ly on jump drive, you cannot reach low sec; so you need at least a mid in someone else sov(CFC). Imagine how long a tower will last there...
or i can get in a hauler and try my luck ... i can adapt to this, ofc, but i'm not sure i want to; you see, i can spend hours cloaked trying to get tru camps on my way to/from empire, or i can play some other fun game..hmm... hard choice Blink
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5156 - 2014-10-03 09:47:25 UTC
Grave Digger Eriker wrote:
So you produce all your fuel blocks locally then!!!


So I guess you don't know about ice compression and our better than highsec refineries. The towers will continue to be fuelled.
Shroud O
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5157 - 2014-10-03 09:48:25 UTC
Hi I'm a new player and would love to fly something big and shiny.

or even have a toon with some skills.
So if your really quitting please send me your toons...I have two empty slots.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#5158 - 2014-10-03 09:48:32 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:

And where do those blockade runners get all their fuel? It's 65 light years from your southern holdings in delve to deklein.


You do know how fast those things warp right?

Yeah, I do. So If you're saying you haul fuel blocks for all of your towers from deklein or Jita, I'm calling bullshit on that.Cool
Incidentally, 54 light years from your southern holdings to Jita.


Takes all of 30 minutes to get to the south from YAO at those speeds.
Andiedeath
Sefem Ortus
The Serenity Syndicate
#5159 - 2014-10-03 09:51:26 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Tribal Trogdor wrote:
About caps jumping gates:

1) Carrier gate camps - If they sit 0 on gate, they have more than enough subcap killing potential along with enough RR potential to wait out 60 seconds of aggro if needed. This wouldn't be so bad in null as there are bubbles to keep them on the other side, but in low, how is this to be countered? Breaking a fair amount in under 60 seconds would take a fair amount of dreads, which have to siege and get stuck for 5 minutes, while the carriers are only stuck for 60. If the carriers jump out via the gate, they can align out, blap anything that might be sat on the other side to stop them (as most are stuck next door and the real DPS cant follow) and dock up. Even in null though, the dreads are still stuck out of the fight, unless of course they burn to the gate, jump in, and hope the archons hadn't reapproached in the time O.o

2) Cyno Jammers - Drop cyno next door, warp to gate, jump in. Kinda kills the point of it, yea?


- If you can get tackle on the other side, capitals generally take a while to get back to the gate. It ought to be manageable.

- There's still probably tactical advantage in forcing the enemy cap fleet to jump in through a gate.



What about a mass based / randomized gate spawn distance similar to that of wormholes? This would make it fair across the board and random your chance of being able to crash gates... It would of course also affect sub caps.

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public

Easthir Ravin
Easy Co.
#5160 - 2014-10-03 09:51:55 UTC
I thought it was about Dominion SOV? I was wrong. Its about making useful ships into complete garbage and useless in the roles they were meant for and creating another arbitrary timer system to plan against. What is it with CCP and timers.

IN THE IMORTAL WORDS OF SOCRATES:  " I drank WHAT?!"