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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#4961 - 2014-10-03 06:01:49 UTC
Rowells wrote:


A healthy local economy will most like provide the materials it can produce to its pilots (plenty of T1 ships) while the materials that cannot be procured there will either be found in highsec or in agreements with local groups. Keep in mind not every need will be met and this will create shortages on certain supplies and possible surpluses for others. Those are what should be traded. Because logistics just became harder, not impossible.


I've lived in null under several different situations some deep some close to high sec some with start up renters and once with a big well established Alliance in a -1.0 station. I've never seen a local economy in null that was healthy enough to not need regular trips to high sec. I've seen nothing in the industrial patch that will change that to any large degree.

I think both you and Greyscale are missing some basic concepts of how the human brain works as well as some social concepts that you are ignoring.

Yes to some degree what you said here will need to happen and will happen no doubt about that. What I am saying here is that the net affect of these changes barring some other huge bombshell game changer that they drop on us will be less active null and null activity being exponentially inverse to it's distance beyond 5 LY from a HS gate system.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli

Varos Kang
Conquering Darkness
#4962 - 2014-10-03 06:02:58 UTC
One more thing, and then I'll shut up for the night. One of the biggest advantages of Blops in the real world is stealth. What good is a cloaked covert cyno ship if all it takes to know it is there is a quick glance at local chat? Please CCP, find a way to not have these ships' pilots show in local chat. Better yet, eliminate local chat in null and make it like wormhole space.

I live in a wormhole, and I have to say I love the lack of local. There is a real feeling of constantly being watched (probably because someone is always cloaked and watching :) ), and we are forced to actually defend our space. We watch our known wormholes, and are constantly vigilant of new ones opening in our space. We use DScan a lot, and have gotten very good with it. You want conflict drivers? Dropping local chat would be huge. As things sit, when I jump into an occupied nullsec system, I suddenly see a rush of ratting nullbears jumping to their station or into a POS. They sit in a safe spot and wait for me to leave, taunting me from inside their bubbles. This is not the way it should be. In wormhole space, we go about our daily business regardless of who might be cloaked up in our space. We respond to threats in our space with force. We don't hide from enemies unless we absolutely know we will get crushed. We lose ships, we kill ships. We have FUN!

To all you nullbears out there: This is what being in 0.0 space is about. It's not about ratting, it's about PvP. It's about risk. If you want to shoot red crosses all day in complete safety, go run missions in highsec. I'm not saying that we don't shoot red crosses. We absolutely do! It's what we do once a week or so to finance our PvP for the rest of the week, and we do it without knowing if someone is about to drop on us in a fleet of T3's and wipe out our escalation fleet. We take a calculated risk, and reap the reward for doing it well. We employ scouts watching for new wormholes, and are vigilant about using DScan to look for anything out of the ordinary. If nullsec pilots learned these skills, they would make for much more fun hunting for us. Not fun because it would be easy, fun because it would be harder. As things sit, we have to rely on them not seeing us in local. That's a crap shoot at best, and requires no skill on their part to evade us.

Picture the two scenarios below:

In the first, things are the way they are now. An unknown pilot jumps through a wormhole into a system with several ratting carriers. One of them spots the new pilot in local. They warp off to the station and taunt the newcomer in local until he gives up and leaves.

In the second, there is no local. The newcomer jumps into system, cloaks up, and begins to DScan the system. He finds the ratters and gets close to them. He calls for his fleet to jump in and warp to him. He decloaks and points a carrier. As his friends enter warp, they suddenly hear the first pilot yelling on comms that he has just been jumped by the carriers' cloaked defense force, and now there are several other ships on DScan incoming that were hidden in a station. A brawl ensues with casualties on both sides. The survivors retreat back to the wormhole to lick their wounds, and the dead wake up in a fresh clone.

Which scenario sounds like more fun to you? I know what I would choose. Adversity to risk leads to a flat, boring landscape for everyone.
NobodyHolme
Its Your Fault
#4963 - 2014-10-03 06:03:55 UTC
Lol

So much win in one patch my computer might explode. Hee!

(More seriously, this might cost a lot of subscribers, and they're the people who make those fights in null that draw in new people, but they're also going to be back at some point, and are worth no more than highsec mission runners or wormhole residents, or anyone else who's life will be significantly improved by the change, so thanks for having the balls to make this change CCP. (The whole monocle thing combined with "we might bring in premium ammo" was terrible, this one is just going to annoy the few people who'll actually lose out to it, and their hordes of obedient, easily led minions, right?)
Ruffio Sepico
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#4964 - 2014-10-03 06:04:15 UTC
Aurthes wrote:
I have a simple proposal that would be simple would slow down caps but still allow people to jump without a crapload of cynos.

Make it so that a character has a jump range multiplier that starts at 100%. After your first jump, the multiplier gets reduced by 50%, unless you wait out the fatigue timer. Each subsequent jump is 50% lower.

For instance, a carrier has a maximum range of 14.625 LY. The multiplier starts at 100%

First jump: 14.625 LY
Second jump: 7.3 LY
Third jump: 3.6 LY
Fourth jump: 1.8 LY

That serves the intended objective of being able to fly around eve quickly.

The timer is with the character, so even if they switch ships, they still get the same % applied. One could do a little monkeying with the base range, but it should be larger than 5 LY and people can keep the same cyno route as long as they slow down jumping.

JFs and Rorquals would still get the timer reduction bonus.


I had something similar in mind, but the "stress" should been put on the ship itself, or else you could just bypass it with another fresh toon. Someone said you could just repackage to remove the stress from the ship, but why should you ever be able to repackage a capital ship once assembled?
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#4965 - 2014-10-03 06:04:34 UTC
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4966 - 2014-10-03 06:07:12 UTC
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4967 - 2014-10-03 06:08:23 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
Rowells wrote:


A healthy local economy will most like provide the materials it can produce to its pilots (plenty of T1 ships) while the materials that cannot be procured there will either be found in highsec or in agreements with local groups. Keep in mind not every need will be met and this will create shortages on certain supplies and possible surpluses for others. Those are what should be traded. Because logistics just became harder, not impossible.


I've lived in null under several different situations some deep some close to high sec some with start up renters and once with a big well established Alliance in a -1.0 station. I've never seen a local economy in null that was healthy enough to not need regular trips to high sec. I've seen nothing in the industrial patch that will change that to any large degree.

I think both you and Greyscale are missing some basic concepts of how the human brain works as well as some social concepts that you are ignoring.

Yes to some degree what you said here will need to happen and will happen no doubt about that. What I am saying here is that the net affect of these changes barring some other huge bombshell game changer that they drop on us will be less active null and null activity being exponentially inverse to it's distance beyond 5 LY from a HS gate system.

Those examples were under the current system. Things being spuer-mass produced in highsec+relatively cheap movement of materials made it extremely easy for industrialists to do everything themselves. Some people would even ship their materials to highsec to get quicker deals. As logistic costs go up, youll see an oppurtunity grow for local production to pick up on those profits. Will there likely be an overall increase in everything dealing with nullsec? very likely. And i think that the aspect of materials and rewards in null needs to be looked at again after the changes.
Ninteen Seventy-Nine
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#4968 - 2014-10-03 06:08:30 UTC


Show us the confirmation screen or it's fake.

And why go halfway?
Biomass or get out.

"The unending paradox is that we do learn through pain."

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#4969 - 2014-10-03 06:08:47 UTC
NobodyHolme wrote:
Lol

So much win in one patch my computer might explode. Hee!

(More seriously, this might cost a lot of subscribers, and they're the people who make those fights in null that draw in new people, but they're also going to be back at some point, and are worth no more than highsec mission runners or wormhole residents, or anyone else who's life will be significantly improved by the change, so thanks for having the balls to make this change CCP. (The whole monocle thing combined with "we might bring in premium ammo" was terrible, this one is just going to annoy the few people who'll actually lose out to it, and their hordes of obedient, easily led minions, right?)



Shush you, im fighting to save my blops and my carriers

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.

PotatoOverdose
Royal Black Watch Highlanders
#4970 - 2014-10-03 06:10:17 UTC
250 pages yay \o/
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#4971 - 2014-10-03 06:10:51 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Nah man - just fail Phoenix that I picked up ages ago for structure shoots - was skillin' for all dreads tbh... now like what's the point? Cant even get dev post responses on anything except stuff from fanboi's.

Unsubb is the only metric CCP actually cares about in the end... pretty sad imo.

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

Polo Marco
Four Winds
#4972 - 2014-10-03 06:11:53 UTC
Varos Kang wrote:
Polo Marco wrote:
It seems that everyone has missed the point. It's not WHAT the megacorps do with these big shiny caps, it's WHY. And the answer is simple.... MONEY. It is more efficient for nullsec industrial entities, who usually handle daily belt raiders and ordinary roams on their own, to PAY for the heavy combat lifting. That is what rental space is all about. Before, the money was in the moons, so they became focal points, but now the money is in the SPACE itself.

If someone is gonna hurt you, and you get the rules changed to take away his gun, then it won't be long till he comes back with a knife. The only thing these changes will effect is the tools and methods of the overlords. Nothing being done here will change the actual status of nullsec at ALL. It just wastes a lot of valuable player time and limits the choices of every player in the game.

If you want to stop all this hot dropping, make renter empire UNPROFITABLE. Hit the mega corps where it hurts......

IN THE WALLET!!!

With just a few simple changes to CONCORD FEES, you can render uninhabited, low activity systems prohibitively expensive. Further, Increase the cost of ALL systems for sov owners above a certain number.

Examples:

a system with less than 5 active players (docked or in space..avg for 24hrs) and no industry/military/strategic index of at least one should cost ONE THOUSAND TIMES the base for every CONCORD sov bill to be paid.

ACTIVE systems, on the other hand...... with lets say.. over 30 pilots and with ANY index at 4 or higher, would pay the base costs for all facilities.

As for SIZE begin imposing sov cost increases for owners of... let's say.... 20 systems or more. Make them pay an extra 25% for ALL sov costs. 50 systems or more? PAY 50% MORE. Hey why not even give the REALLY small holder, like with only one or 2 systems a 50% cost break?

Now CCP, I can't mine the data like you can, so this is just an IDEA, but with a bit of adjusting, I'm willing to bet it will fix the blight issue. Smaller entities can them move in without the burden of rent, develop their own space and can spend the money they save on rent for SELF DEFENSE. Maybe, just MAYBE... no more nullbears.... Wow, what a concept....

Believe me , the megacorps will drop their vast tracts of nullsec blight like hot coals. with no rents there will be no mercenary reaction obligations. Pilots who have been forced to sit and wait all day for a fight wont get trigger happy and hot jump small roams simply out of desperate boredom. Those of you who whine about getting anvil dropped should remember that the guys on the other end must waste ENDLESS hours of their playtime simply waiting on your asses to come along......

All I'm seeing here is STICK. And I might ad a very clumsily wielded one. Maybe you have the wrong minds working on this problem..... I have always found that the CARROT not only works better, it leaves everyone with a more positive, constructive attitude as the process advances.


IN short, treating the SYMPTOMS doesn't get rid of the DISEASE..... you have to find a CURE.


This idea has some merit. Scratch that, it has a LOT of merit. If the cost of keeping these empty systems goes above what a null empire can get for renting it, they will drop it like a hot potato. Many small entities existing on the same landscape means lots of differing opinions, opportunities for diplomacy (particularly blaster diplomacy), and even the possibility of trade between relatively friendly neighbours. A richer Eve for everyone involved.



And another point I meant to emphasize here and neglected the first time..........

There is more than one kind of PVP in this game, and that is the economic PVP. I have both combat alts and Industrial alts, and I assure you that Polo here values every billion he makes just as much as any my fleet pilots (or anyone else's for that matter) value their killmails. My fleet alts are actually kinda bored with the 'doughnut' :)

There is more than one kind of fun to be had here, and I will take umbrage at ANYONE...... be they player or developer... who proposes things that can crush that fun. Normally I am a 'care-less' bear when it comes to the forums. That is, I could care less what all the insta geniuses, trolls and ragequitters are always carrying on about. I'd rather play than talk. But the ideas put forth in Grayscale's blog are frankly so potentially toxic to both fun and play balance for small entities in nullsec that I have devoted much of my playing time today to this thread. Hopefully my ideas have enough merit to alter some of the negative thinking that seems to be driving these changes.

Eve teaches hard lessons. Don't blame the game for your own failures.

Emmy Mnemonic
The Northerners
Northern Coalition.
#4973 - 2014-10-03 06:11:58 UTC
This change might be good for gameplay and increase the fun in small-scale fights. But it will remove completely the large mega-fights. I for one had my greatest time during B-R, one of those rare moments in EVE that I will cherish as long as I live. Those moments will never come back. Now, there will be more small scale pvp, which is fun, but those fights rarely makes a huge impact as B-R did.

The drive to own supers, titans, JFs and even carriers/dreads will diminish. There will be no real need for having many cyno-alts to support supers, carriers or JFs either. Many veterans refuse to use these ships under the new feature of jump fatigue timers because "reasons". The drive to own null-space will diminish, since the reason to own that space is to get incomes to build said supers and titans. It will affect the online economy, less players, less demand for supers and capitals, less demand for minerals, less demand for jump-fuel, so this will affect the miners and the complete value-chain through producers to end products.

If players want to small-scale pvp, lowsec is the obvious place to live. You can roam lowsec or nullsec and get guud fites. So nullsec will be even fewer than before, and those who stay will be more spread out.

So, there will be fewer players in general, the drive to live i null will diminish for many like me, the large mega-fights that made headlines in The Times will dissapear. EVE will be a less vibrant universe. Sadness.

This will also lead to a quick dip in cash-flow when subsriptions are unsubbed, and in time a dip in overall income and revenues for CCP.

I cincerely hope that CCP considers this change in terms of income, cash-flow and revenues before they give CCP Greyscale a go-ahead to start it. I fear this will deliver a severe blow to CCP economy, forcing layoffs and less new features for the players that remain in-game. THat will also speed up the probable death of this wonderful alternate reality.

This is not the end of EVE. It is not even the beginnig of the end for EVE. But it IS the end of the beginning of EVEs death...

Ex ex-CEO of Svea Rike [.S.R.]

Alizabeth Vea
Doomheim
#4974 - 2014-10-03 06:12:05 UTC
What concerns me is the flailing that CCP seems to be doing with this. They have no real plan here. They have admitted as much that they do not really know what the end state of all these massive changes will be.
It reminds me of a desperate flail of a person being choked, just before they pass out.
It's fine to want to nerf power projection. Some changes are warranted. Rather than going nuclear (with no real consultation with the CSM) and putting massive changes out like this (with no real idea of the end state), go back and try something smaller. Better to undernerf and adjust than overnerf and adjust. Players that will leave if this goes through will not come back.

Retainer of Lady Newelle and House Sarum.

"Those who step into the light shall be redeemed, the sins of their past cleansed, so that they may know salvation." -Empress Jamyl Sarum I

Virtue. Valor. Victory.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4975 - 2014-10-03 06:13:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Alizabeth Vea wrote:
It reminds me of a desperate flail of a person being choked, just before they pass out.
Shocked
Kassasis Dakkstromri
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
#4976 - 2014-10-03 06:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Kassasis Dakkstromri
Ninteen Seventy-Nine wrote:


Show us the confirmation screen or it's fake.

And why go halfway?
Biomass or get out.


Your a demanding little troll, but entertaining so I'll humor you:

http://imgur.com/VL4gPcL


And **** Biomassing.... 'sometimes' CCP wises up, or years later fixes the fix that was supposed to fix something that actually broken even more...

CCP you are bad at EVE... Stop potential silliness ~ Solo Wulf

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#4977 - 2014-10-03 06:14:26 UTC
Whiskey Juvenile
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#4978 - 2014-10-03 06:19:48 UTC
This game really needs a tech II Orca, a black ops orca.

With a fleet of mining redeemers, tech II ore frigates NC. has the ability mine ore in hostile space, but post patch our rorquals will have a harder time keeping up. Is there any way CCP can add a black ops orca to act as haulers for our black ops mining fleet?
sabastyian
The Milkmen
No Forks Given
#4979 - 2014-10-03 06:21:08 UTC
These changes, while in the right mind-set, are just going to degrade the eve society.
The jump range of 4.25ly for Super/Titan, 5ly for Dread, 6.25ly for carrier would make it more versatile as it isn't just a flat static number. Also, the fatigue idea, while interesting, has come across in the wrong way. You should put a "5 minute shake down timer on the jump drive systems" for any capital ( minus JF/Rorq which should be left alone ) would make it so moving a fleet across eve would take the better part of a couple hours one way. For the CFC to get from YAO to their Querious staging point of F2O would take the better part of an hour, hour and a half with a JDC 5 carrier fleet, dreads/supers/titans would take much longer, and sub cap fleets would then have to burn to their destination via gates and jump bridges. If an alliance has sov for Jump Bridges, there shouldn't be a fatigue timer as they had to grind down the space, hold of attacks and then get the upgrades, there should be a bonus to having it rather then "you can only this for one round trip a day".
TLDR:
JDC 5 Range : Titan/Super : 4.25, Dread : 5, Carrier : 6.25 ( Blops, Jf, Rorq kept at current stats. )
Fatigue Cap : 5 Minutes per jump ( regardless of distance, Jf/Rorq don' have fatigue timer )
Jump Bridge : No Fatigue
Titan Bridge : Shortened range, 3 minute fatigue timer, titan pilot can not light another bridge for 10 minutes.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#4980 - 2014-10-03 06:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
5000th post!

E: goddamnit somebody got their post removed