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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

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Brody Moennan
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#3261 - 2014-10-02 14:12:11 UTC
Is anyone else worried that these changes will lead to an oasis / wasteland dichotomy for the georgraphy of null once the powerblocks balance out again?

Also the jump clone deal seems uneeded. The 24hr timer and limitations of jump clone placement were enough to prevent any kind of major abuse beyond convenience when moving to a new home system or staging area.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3262 - 2014-10-02 14:12:11 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Lord TGR wrote:

Nope. The mechanics lead us to the "blue butthole of stagnation". It was always in the cards, and there's been plenty of people who've been saying for YEARS that we're heading into what we're seeing now (me included, I've been railing for a sov system fix for more than 3 years, probably closer to 4 now).

You can blame the players all you want, but you'll be dead wrong. They're just utilizing the ruleset as far as they can to win. It's CCP's responsibility to make sure the ruleset ensure a lively and vibrant game, not the players'.


So you're saying that B0tlord and similar pacts are part of the game mechanics? Where can one find them, there's no such option under 'business' or 'social'. As for the 'burnout due to grind' thing we saw how that panned out for Test in Fountain and Delve.

That's all a direct result of the ****** sov system, yes.
Thead Enco
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3263 - 2014-10-02 14:13:03 UTC
Hexatron Ormand wrote:
Even with the bonus on the Jumpfreighters and Rorquals jump fatigue, i think this cutting into the logistics hugely cause of the reduction to 5LJs.

This means additional cyno spots, cyno chars. So where a single person could do the logistics and transports before, you now need several people to get this going.

If you own all this space, it may be no trouble as you can fly the cyno char through gates to the next system and open the next cyno. But if you don't what then? Moving a warfleet with several people being part of it is one thing. But moving ships like JFs or Rorquals was usually a "1 man show". So limiting their jumpange will severly limit their usability. If it stays to a 1 man show, the JF can only move on to the next system every 19-24 hours, when the cyno char can jumpclone to the next cyno spot. So a route that could be done in a single jump in very short amout of time before, now suddenly needs a complete day or even longer if you need several jumps?


The "warfare" part of those changes may be great to change the power projection, yet the changes to the "civilian" sector of this are horrible.


What if you give the JFs and Rorqual a role bonus of a hugely improved jump distance instead? So they can jump the same distances as before, or maybe even further? So you may have a huge jump fatigue afterwards, but can shrug it off as you reach your goal in a single jump and can wait it out there? Or a combination of both.. improved range, and reduced fatigue, trying to balance it out in a good way?





Quick hire this man as.a consultant before Riot does.
uziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#3264 - 2014-10-02 14:13:22 UTC
Min Mar wrote:
Dave Kitaro wrote:
Someone explain how 'jump fatigue' works according to the laws of physics in New Eden? Like, what are the actual mechanics of it?


It's like truck driving: The law says you have to stop and take naps. Same principle applied to internet spaceships. It's so logical, I don't see why they didn't do it sooner....



The law says nothing about taking naps for days at a time for 10-20 minutes work.

<<--- Real truck driver, with 750,000 accident free miles.

From the formless void's gaping maw, there springs an entity.  Not an entity such as any you can conceive of, nor I; an entity more primordial than the elements themselves. In its wake there will follow a storm, as the appetite of nothing expands over the world. The Prophecy is true. Grayscale has come.

knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3265 - 2014-10-02 14:13:48 UTC
Schluffi Schluffelsen wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:


QFT, let small gang pvp live again.


Small gangs of carriers. On gates, being remote sebo'ed. Safe in the knowledge that they won't get hot dropped. Waiting for high sec scrubs to come through because they think that this change will make things better. I can't wait. This will be the age of the Carrier gate camp and blap dread local defense fleet.


Small gangs of carriers? Gate-camping with intel channels, awesome idea. Yes you're fine, there won't certainly be a group of guys who'd want and be able to drop on your butts with a few dreads or supers. It's not impossible to drop on guys, just needs more planning and organization.

We're in the age of "don't undock unless you got supers on standby to counterdrop" - I rather see caps used as often as BS and die more often than continue playing boring online. Please just biomass your character, it'll be fun to see you guys around here in a few weeks after your supposedly "unsubbing".

There's a lot of potential fun here to be had, so why not try and discuss with devs on a more "sensible" basis about tweaking the weaknesses of it?


Read the changes. They support local defense. Hotdropping starting from a base 20LY away would be suicide for any supercap fleet - as they try to get back via gates. Yes, you will see more capitals, allot more capitals now. Enjoy.
ulililillia
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3266 - 2014-10-02 14:14:06 UTC
Alex Logan wrote:
Dear CCP

The jump fatigue idea is useless and will cripple most old players that use capitals. Remember that it is us, 5+ year characters, that make for most of your monthly subs and implicitly, salaries.

I (should I say we?) would suggest a 2nd visit on this possible "feature" as well as upon several others that could indeed use adjustment.

Best regards!
A seasoned player.

nobody cares
and if this cripples you, you're bad
Min Mar
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#3267 - 2014-10-02 14:14:28 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
ugly inside wrote:
Min Mar wrote:
Dave Kitaro wrote:
Someone explain how 'jump fatigue' works according to the laws of physics in New Eden? Like, what are the actual mechanics of it?


It's like truck driving: The law says you have to stop and take naps. Same principle applied to internet spaceships. It's so logical, I don't see why they didn't do it sooner....


i guess you could say its LOGIcal to be in the business of LOGIstics?


The RL truckers dealing with those laws aren't doing logistic work? You will either spread the load more onto more player to do logistic work or lose player because you are starving at the end of a small logistical chain until your current setup can keep up. The people sharing the load the best will be able to keep themself at a higher level than those who rely on too few dudes.


That's my point: CCP is creating two additional logistical problems: fatigue (I'm ok with that) but also jump limitation (not OK). You can get around one by waiting but you need twice as many (actually 11.25/5=2.25) cynos to make a trip. Only larger alliances will have that many cyno pilots available, I don't have enough open slots in my accounts...
Ilaister
Protean Concept
Moss Piglet Preservation Society
#3268 - 2014-10-02 14:14:40 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:


QFT, let small gang pvp live again.


Small gangs of carriers. On gates, being remote sebo'ed. Safe in the knowledge that they won't get hot dropped. Waiting for high sec scrubs to come through because they think that this change will make things better. I can't wait. This will be the age of the Carrier gate camp and blap dread local defense fleet.


Til someone comes through any of the dozens of WHs within 5LY and cynos in on top of them yes.

Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#3269 - 2014-10-02 14:14:45 UTC
I find it a bit disconcerting that the fatigue timer is likely to bite people in the rear in future unforeseeable circumstances - thats not really good gameplay design.
Troll Bridgington
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#3270 - 2014-10-02 14:15:22 UTC
If Commander Adama and the Colonial Fleet succumbed to jump fatigue in the first episode of the hit sci-fi show Batlestar Gallactica, the Cylons would have killed them all.

I guess what I'm trying to say is CCP is full of Cylons.
Thead Enco
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3271 - 2014-10-02 14:16:21 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
Dirk Solaris wrote:
It's about time nullies see a little pain from all the gain of the past numerous expansions.


That's the thing that i find most exasperating here. It's not 'nullies' that will feel pain. As I said in that post, well established groups are in the BEST position to survive radical change. It's everyone else that isn't. The 'independents' in npc null are getting the mega shaft , for example.

You're literally celebrating a situation that will most likely lead to the rich getting richer, the established groups being able to gain MORE control, and higher prices for things you use (and OMG don't even get started on PLEX as alliances start to subsidize multiple character training in order to 'lengthen' their span of control counter to what these long distance jump changes expect).


In addition people are forgetting about "the elephant in the room" right now which is the T2 market.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#3272 - 2014-10-02 14:16:23 UTC
uziel99 wrote:
Min Mar wrote:
Dave Kitaro wrote:
Someone explain how 'jump fatigue' works according to the laws of physics in New Eden? Like, what are the actual mechanics of it?


It's like truck driving: The law says you have to stop and take naps. Same principle applied to internet spaceships. It's so logical, I don't see why they didn't do it sooner....



The law says nothing about taking naps for days at a time for 10-20 minutes work.

<<--- Real truck driver, with 750,000 accident free miles.


If you don't chain jump, you will never get day long cooldown. 2-3 jump, safe up/dock and go play oen of your numerous alt.
Rroff
Antagonistic Tendencies
#3273 - 2014-10-02 14:17:00 UTC
Ilaister wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Arsine Mayhem wrote:


QFT, let small gang pvp live again.


Small gangs of carriers. On gates, being remote sebo'ed. Safe in the knowledge that they won't get hot dropped. Waiting for high sec scrubs to come through because they think that this change will make things better. I can't wait. This will be the age of the Carrier gate camp and blap dread local defense fleet.


Til someone comes through any of the dozens of WHs within 5LY and cynos in on top of them yes.



If they do it on a gate with lowsec on the other side or a regional null gate theres a fairly high chance they can deaggress, jump the gate and then jump to an exit cyno without being caught.
ulililillia
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#3274 - 2014-10-02 14:17:08 UTC
People are complaining about having to work together to move some of the largest ships around now. This is great
Major Trant
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#3275 - 2014-10-02 14:17:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Trant
Wait... I've seen a negative to these proposed changes.

Amarr, my market hub of choice, is 7 LY from my base in Huola. I can no longer jump my JF from the Amarr undock directly to Huola.

In discussion with my JF corp mates we considered just slow boating through a couple of hi sec gates until we are in jump range, but that opens us to suicide ganking when we have a valuable cargo. We then highlighted that Ayeroilen would make a good intermediate jump point. This led to a number of ideas.

1. The increased difficulty of getting stuff into Huola, means the people that do go to the effort, can jack the prices up.
2. There is potential to actually create the first low sec true Market hub in Huola.
3. Ayeroilen itself has potential as a limited market hub.
4. Our enemies will have the same problem, now there is opportunity to gank their JFs in hi sec if they take the slow boat option.
5. Some enemies/neutrals may slow boat stuff into Ayeroilen or other likely intermediate low sec points, another chance to gank them.


Alternatively:

WAH WAH THIS IS ********, I'M GOING TO UNSUB...


If anyone prefers the second option, good riddens to you.
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#3276 - 2014-10-02 14:17:13 UTC
Eigenvalue wrote:
to service Brave in GE-

And now consider supplying goods to Omist.
Jen Moriarty
Out of Focus
Odin's Call
#3277 - 2014-10-02 14:17:28 UTC
So... just a thought:
Party A is being attacked by party B, while on deployment somewhere else and cannot respond on time. Party A logs on 200 pilots in ceptors to fly around attacked system to increase TiDi while recalling their fleet. Possible?

Also - how do timers stack with TiDi? A cooldown of 5min could easiy become 50 minutes if TiDi is involved
HellGate fr
#3278 - 2014-10-02 14:17:45 UTC
I guess CCP haven't used a JF before.
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#3279 - 2014-10-02 14:18:32 UTC
On the whole agree with most of the changes being proposed but i believe there's some serious oversights as to how players will min/max the proposed system.

  1. As has been mentioned before, cap/supercap jump force projection has been nerfed, but with the fact you've included a change to allow caps/supers to use gates it stands to reason large groups of caps/supers will be able to move through hostile sov space with relative impunity reinforcing system after system.
  2. Yes it doesn't mean they can project as far but large groups like that can effectively hellicopeter-d**k through territory completely unchallenged.
    That might not be an actual mechanic issue with these changes but it stands to reason that not even mentioning a look at caps/supers for balance changes means you've completely overlooked this eventuality.
    The other change of reducing hitpoints on Sov structures is a blatant indication that you've not even thought of this either!

  3. The other big issue that i have is the inclusion of jump fatigue on JB's. Not in a "ohh we cannot blop people anymore" issue but for the simple fact that pushing a full fleet through systems, even with the help of JB support incurs its own lag in the form of TiDi. Surely that alone adds artificial constraints to force projection already? why compound the situation?

  4. I understand adding jump fatigue to JBs if you're permitting caps to use jbs as not including it means theres an obvious loophole to using your jump drive, but surely the mechanic of jumping through a jump bridge and jumping through a stargate can be separated and iterated upon separately?

    if not then reduce jump fatigue drastically on subcaps (with a scaling up on jump fatigue based on ship hull class). its already been said by devs that the amount of fatigue can be varied on an attribute attached to the ship. and from a lore sense you'd be more fatigued jumping several billion tonnes of mass as opposed to several millions.

  5. Finally JF changes are basically a nail in the coffin of people that do sterling work helping nullsec alliances. Do you really honestly believe that JF pilots do what they do because they like it? and if the could they'd want to spend more time jumping, docking, moving a cyno, lighting, undocking, jumping and so on and so forth? i can honestly and comprehensively tell you they dont. They do it for the good of their group, so making that task soo much more laborious is like kicking them in the balls for being on the whole selfless.

  6. If this change was brought about alongside changes that showed JF usage to and from highsec would not be that necessary (because you're further increasing the ability for nullsec to be self sustaining) then i could understand. But you hadn't so it stands to reason that you don't 'get' the what/why/how of nullsec logistics in your own game.


smokeydapot
Moon Of The Pheonix
#3280 - 2014-10-02 14:18:42 UTC
Davionia Vanshel wrote:
You could fix (some of) the JF tears by making it so that you need to infini-point it with a Hictor - after all like Titans (T2 Dreads) and supers (T2 carriers) the JF is a T2 capital ship. The rest you can fix by leaving JF Jump Range alone.


You need to do research titans, dreadnaughts and super carriers are not T2.
No invention required.
No morphite.


You have single handedly shown why threads of this nature are bad.