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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
JIeoH Mocc
brotherhood of desman
#2621 - 2014-10-02 06:45:21 UTC
Yep, like I said, do THAT every day. If you get two focal points, might be hard. But do ONLY THAT every day - it makes sense, right?


Kasarch wrote:
This "improvement" is a head shot for small roaming alliances, that must change their regroup points to find ani kind of pvp. That alliances have lot of ships that must be transported to new regroup point and no such of many carriers to take this ships for one time.
Even now i need to make 3+ carrier jumps to reach old regroup point and take ships from it...

CCP what sort of drugs you are using? These changes not fixing null-sec stagnation, it just killing some aspects of game, but not killing null-sec stagnation.


It's perfect, no one said you should be able to haul dozens of ships across regions in half an hour.
Want to have the freedom of movement? Invest a couple of days into it, makes perfect sense.
Antihrist Pripravnik
Scorpion Road Industry
#2622 - 2014-10-02 06:46:16 UTC
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
You know what will be exceptionally fun?

When renters figure out that their landlords have hard time keeping their own massive amounts of space together and decide to "change" the agreements a bit Twisted. Smart and brave renters, say hello to high end moons in your possession. Lol

Disclaimer: At least those renters who know how to play this game well (the rest will evac to highsec).


if you rent within 10ly of where your landlord keeps his caps, you'll be doing no such thing.

2 jumps to stomp on your face, and 2 jumps home gives you a total of like 16 hours fatigue... that's less than a night's sleep and a day in the office. not exactly a large price to pay to stamp on unruly peasants.

in fact, within 20ly... they'll just have to make the trip home tomorrow, instead.


Yeah, now do that every day, hehe.

...and in different regions of space Lol
Deych
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2623 - 2014-10-02 06:46:30 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
You know what will be exceptionally fun?

When renters figure out that their landlords have hard time keeping their own massive amounts of space together and decide to "change" the agreements a bit Twisted. Smart and brave renters, say hello to high end moons in your possession. Lol

Disclaimer: At least those renters who know how to play this game well (the rest will evac to highsec).


if you rent within 10ly of where your landlord keeps his caps, you'll be doing no such thing.

2 jumps to stomp on your face, and 2 jumps home gives you a total of like 16 hours fatigue... that's less than a night's sleep and a day in the office. not exactly a large price to pay to stamp on unruly peasants.

in fact, within 20ly... they'll just have to make the trip home tomorrow, instead.


Yeah, now do that every day, hehe.


erm, easily... like i said within 10ly you can do 2 jumps there, and 2 jumps back with only ~16 hours fatigue. that will decay between most play sessions... as i pointed out that's about the same time i spend asleep and in the office on a standard day.


And if there other attackers? You can't be at any place in eve in 2 hours like now. And thats awesome!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2624 - 2014-10-02 06:46:36 UTC
Brutus Crendraven wrote:
Null Tears pour forth.

Let me grab a bucket to catch these null tears in the name of our lord BOB!

Just one final change needed the removal of local and everything will be as BOB intended.


Question.

How do you supply a small alliance on the outer edge of null with these changes to JF?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2625 - 2014-10-02 06:47:30 UTC
Deych wrote:


And if there other attackers? You can't be at any place in eve in 2 hours like now. And thats awesome!


Subcaps can.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2626 - 2014-10-02 06:48:17 UTC
OldWolf69 wrote:
Burl en Daire wrote:
OldWolf69 wrote:

Actually i think it's all about sustenability . If "work" part becomes 3-4x bigger than "fun" part this not a good mix.



Some players just want to be space truckers while others just want to PVP. These changes facilitate both jobs and create openings for more players. I don't enjoy PVP that much so what I consider work is different than what a PVPer considers work. This is a boon for on truckers and PVPers because it allows for more trucking jobs and allows for more mercenaries to provide protection. It also opens the door for more ganks and gate camps and that in turn drives up the need for more escorts. It is content to someone. We shouldn't all just up and unsub over a change that hasn't even happened and isn't even written in stone.

This won't make up for more trucking jobs. It will stay same numbers, but way more lame and risky. Also slower isk income on long run. prices will rise, sustenability will be lower, and it will end in the "not worth the pain" corner.



Yes and no. Eve has a good economy that is ran off of supply and demand. If the demand is there the supply will follow. Margins may be thin but it will either cause prices to go up or more groups to enter the "workforce" to chase the ISK. Either way we look at it it is a content driver.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson

Prince Kobol
#2627 - 2014-10-02 06:48:18 UTC
Professor Headmash wrote:
looking at the amount of goons who are going to desub off the back of this, seems there won't be many of them left soon.....VFK by Christmas anyone? Big smile

Seriously though, while I can understand people's frustrations, at the same time I can't see why the majority can't see this as a good change. This is going to promote LOCAL area content for everyone. No more flying around the map fighting nameless alliances because a mate of a mate of the half brother of the FC asked for help. Placement of caps will now be key to home defence and invasion plans, people will actually have to start this thinking medium/long term instead of "it'll be fine, support fleet can be here in 10 mins'.


What local content. Caps are used for 2 major reasons, burning structures and counters to huge subcaps blobs. Without caps or the risk of having caps hot dropped on you how are you going to counter large subcap blobs?

When either CFC or NC turn up with 200+ guys flying Alpha Battleships + logi + dictors what are you going to do to counter them?

Professor Headmash wrote:
Also this should help with that thing I always hear null bears moaning about, TIDI....if half the map can't get there in 10 mins, you may have to start doing more than pressing f1 and watching your guns cycle once every 10 minutes. You could actually start like, playing the game like the rest of us Big smile


Sure Tidi is a pain but it rarely gets tot he point where it is unplayable.

Professor Headmash wrote:
So in conclusion, while logistics will be slightly affected ( start making it locally instead of relaying on jita!) the fact that the carrier blob is going to be limited to an alliances local area ( unless preplanned to be moved) is nothing but a good thing. I'm sure this will promote lots of smaller wars and hopefully start to get sov shaken up a bit.


Logistics will be insane with these changes. People really do not realise how many JF trips are made everyday ferrying stuff back and forth from HS to null and back to HS.
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#2628 - 2014-10-02 06:49:29 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Brutus Crendraven wrote:
Null Tears pour forth.

Let me grab a bucket to catch these null tears in the name of our lord BOB!

Just one final change needed the removal of local and everything will be as BOB intended.


Question.

How do you supply a small alliance on the outer edge of null with these changes to JF?


Supply with what?
Manfred Sideous
H A V O C
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2629 - 2014-10-02 06:49:29 UTC
I have been watching this thread and I feel like collectively. You all are like Neo the first time he sees the Matrix for what it really is. You are beginning to see the possibilities. That blue pill is exciting hey?

@EveManny

https://twitter.com/EveManny

Dave Stark
#2630 - 2014-10-02 06:49:37 UTC
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
You know what will be exceptionally fun?

When renters figure out that their landlords have hard time keeping their own massive amounts of space together and decide to "change" the agreements a bit Twisted. Smart and brave renters, say hello to high end moons in your possession. Lol

Disclaimer: At least those renters who know how to play this game well (the rest will evac to highsec).


if you rent within 10ly of where your landlord keeps his caps, you'll be doing no such thing.

2 jumps to stomp on your face, and 2 jumps home gives you a total of like 16 hours fatigue... that's less than a night's sleep and a day in the office. not exactly a large price to pay to stamp on unruly peasants.

in fact, within 20ly... they'll just have to make the trip home tomorrow, instead.


Yeah, now do that every day, hehe.

...and in different regions of space Lol


welcome to alts online.

apparently they don't want to incentivise cyno alt proliferation cos that's bad... but carrier alt proliferation is fine (cos you know, takes longer to train carrier skills which means more revenue, but that's got nothing to do with me *kermitthefrog*)
Dave Stark
#2631 - 2014-10-02 06:50:26 UTC
Deych wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
JIeoH Mocc wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Antihrist Pripravnik wrote:
You know what will be exceptionally fun?

When renters figure out that their landlords have hard time keeping their own massive amounts of space together and decide to "change" the agreements a bit Twisted. Smart and brave renters, say hello to high end moons in your possession. Lol

Disclaimer: At least those renters who know how to play this game well (the rest will evac to highsec).


if you rent within 10ly of where your landlord keeps his caps, you'll be doing no such thing.

2 jumps to stomp on your face, and 2 jumps home gives you a total of like 16 hours fatigue... that's less than a night's sleep and a day in the office. not exactly a large price to pay to stamp on unruly peasants.

in fact, within 20ly... they'll just have to make the trip home tomorrow, instead.


Yeah, now do that every day, hehe.


erm, easily... like i said within 10ly you can do 2 jumps there, and 2 jumps back with only ~16 hours fatigue. that will decay between most play sessions... as i pointed out that's about the same time i spend asleep and in the office on a standard day.


And if there other attackers? You can't be at any place in eve in 2 hours like now. And thats awesome!


I'm not quite au fait with current sov mechanics, but i'm sure most timers aren't less than 24hrs, correct?
Torgeir Hekard
I MYSELF AND ME
#2632 - 2014-10-02 06:50:33 UTC
baltec1 wrote:

How do you supply a small alliance on the outer edge of null with these changes to JF?

You blue whatever block that holds the slice of null going to empire.
Prince Kobol
#2633 - 2014-10-02 06:50:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
baltec1 wrote:
Deych wrote:


And if there other attackers? You can't be at any place in eve in 2 hours like now. And thats awesome!


Subcaps can.


Its amazing how many people have forgotten your quite large and now after these changes invincible Baltec Fleets.

Also being able to move ridiculously fast and be immune tp bubble with interceptors from one dread and carrier cache to the next.
Inslander Wessette
Unleashed' Fury
The Initiative.
#2634 - 2014-10-02 06:51:34 UTC
CCP Greyscale . Pls dont nerf JF jump range . Affecting logistics in the game will do u no good .
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2635 - 2014-10-02 06:51:34 UTC
Professor Headmash wrote:
looking at the amount of goons who are going to desub off the back of this, seems there won't be many of them left soon.....VFK by Christmas anyone? Big smile

Seriously though, while I can understand people's frustrations, at the same time I can't see why the majority can't see this as a good change. This is going to promote LOCAL area content for everyone. No more flying around the map fighting nameless alliances because a mate of a mate of the half brother of the FC asked for help. Placement of caps will now be key to home defence and invasion plans, people will actually have to start this thinking medium/long term instead of "it'll be fine, support fleet can be here in 10 mins'.

Also this should help with that thing I always hear null bears moaning about, TIDI....if half the map can't get there in 10 mins, you may have to start doing more than pressing f1 and watching your guns cycle once every 10 minutes. You could actually start like, playing the game like the rest of us Big smile

So in conclusion, while logistics will be slightly affected ( start making it locally instead of relaying on jita!) the fact that the carrier blob is going to be limited to an alliances local area ( unless preplanned to be moved) is nothing but a good thing. I'm sure this will promote lots of smaller wars and hopefully start to get sov shaken up a bit.

It's disturbing that people actually believe we prefer to haul crap in dangerous and yet somehow still mind-numbingly boring freighter runs when we could just as easily make crap locally.

We don't make crap locally because it's impossible. If CCP wanted us to make our own junk all they had to do was give us the resources to do it. I don't go to Jita for the scammers, I go because they have the minerals that nullsec lacks. I buy modules because jump freighting crap around is a time-intensive PITA and modules are more compressed than minerals.

Sovnull built every titan and supercarrier in the game. This oft-repeated notion we don't want to build locally is absurd.
Prince Kobol
#2636 - 2014-10-02 06:51:39 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

How do you supply a small alliance on the outer edge of null with these changes to JF?

You blue whatever block that holds the slice of null going to empire.


So a even bigger blue doughnut that we have now.. great
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2637 - 2014-10-02 06:51:42 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Brutus Crendraven wrote:
Null Tears pour forth.

Let me grab a bucket to catch these null tears in the name of our lord BOB!

Just one final change needed the removal of local and everything will be as BOB intended.


Question.

How do you supply a small alliance on the outer edge of null with these changes to JF?


Supply with what?


Everything from ammo and minerals to battleships. They aren't going to do very well if you starve them of supplies.
Burl en Daire
M.O.M.S. Corp
#2638 - 2014-10-02 06:52:37 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Brutus Crendraven wrote:
Null Tears pour forth.

Let me grab a bucket to catch these null tears in the name of our lord BOB!

Just one final change needed the removal of local and everything will be as BOB intended.


Question.

How do you supply a small alliance on the outer edge of null with these changes to JF?



They are already living on the razors edge. If they are that small and isolated then they are being allowed to live there. This doesn't do much for them.

Yesterday's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. Hunter S. Thompson

FearlessLittleToaster
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2639 - 2014-10-02 06:52:53 UTC
CCP Devs,

A spoonful of sugar helps the medicine go down, but in this case there is a lot of medicine here for the average null player and not much sugar. To be clear I agree with the Jump Fatigue mechanic being applied to ships that can project combat power, so carriers, dreads, and supers. Right now they are much too powerful and need reigned in.

However the proposed changes are lumping two very different types of gameplay together under one heading here and then nerfing both. There is a clear line between combat power projection and logistics projection, where by logistics I mean the PvE and industrial elements of Eve. Combat power has to do with the taking of space, moons, POCOs, and other beneficial things that have timers and cause fights. Logistics power has to do with with the livability and gameplay experience of the nullsec player and it is working just fine.

The changes to Jump Freighters, Rorquals, and Jump Bridges will add major complications to the lives of the everyday null player who engages in almost any industrial or PvE activity without adding a shred of content to their lives. Eve PvE is already often quite dull and while this is not a bad thing in moderation (having to slog through 25 Forsaken Hubs to pay for that Proteus makes taking it into combat a lot more exciting) but once the level of annoyance gets over a certain point playing Eve just stops being fun. Limiting players to a couple jump bridge jumps per play session or making it take three times the effort to move a jump freighter to a market hub will only force players to endure more tedium without making them get more fights as a result.

The reason for this is that under the current nullsec income generation mechanics players are forced to spread out in order to make money; even at maximum military level the anomalies in a null system with great truesec will still only support a half dozen ratters. As a consequence, making it harder for them to move only makes it harder for them to engage in PvE and adds frustration. Exploration as a profession requires even more movement and would be hit harder.

However the problems of ratters will pale beside those of anyone wanting to make stuff or engage in trade. The nerf to Jump Freighers will cause the most profound and long lasting damage. Nullsec industry was just becoming a viable profession after the last couple expansions but this will cripple it again. For a lot of other game design reasons there is no such thing as a self sufficient region in the game so there will always be a need for items to be imported and exported; that being said running a jump freighter service is already a tedious activity with a very high burnout rate, if you doubt this ask the CFC CSM members about how many have quit in the past couple years.

Making their lives much harder will just serve to cripple the null economy by choking trade while at the same time making space far from highsec undesirable. I don't mean undesirable in the sense of "the big players won't want it so the little fish can move in" I mean undesirable like "nobody wants to live there because hauling in and out is a pain or just plain impossible if you aren't blue to the guys closer to the major market hubs because you can't get stuff."

Nerfing Rorquals is just the icing on the cake to this; all the infrastructure such as safe towers, jump bridges, and cyno beacons that makes null profitable for somebody who does not have the time to play Eve like a job depends on the trusty Rorq to maintain it because again that maintenance is tedious and not fun. Making it harder to keep up will no doubt cause a lot of it to fall apart, but right now all that would do is make it harder for players to play.

One of the major advantages of owning space is that for subcap fights you can use your jump bridge network to get ahead of enemy gangs and try to kill them; how would taking that away by restricting the defense gang to one JB jump an hour (or two but then none for three unless you are going to give it up for the day after that) and making them less effective encourage people to live in null? Its already hard enough to get fights without crippling defenders who are already forced to be reactive.

The null ratter already safes up when a red comes along because its the rational thing to do; there is no way a single player can hope to fight a roam. Under the current mechanics those single players can amalgamate into a fleet and try to protect themselves but after these changes help that used to be a minute or two away would take much longer to arrive. Therefore the logical response is just to accept even less risk, which generates content for nobody.

On a final note I think these changes would be great if they came as a part of a larger change that would allow and reward greater population density. More players in one place leads to more interaction, specialization, and content for everyone. If ratters didn't have to fly ten jumps at peak hours to find a system to rat then the infrequent use of jump bridges and carriers would not matter. If industrialists only had to ship to a couple major market hubs which had thriving markets and hundreds of players coming there to shop every day then the reduced capability of their freighters would matter a lot less. However until a system that allows that is in place please hold off on changing the logistical part of null gameplay; if the proposed jump drive changes were simply applied to the caps that project combat power it would fix the part of null gameplay that is truly broken at the moment.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#2640 - 2014-10-02 06:53:01 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
baltec1 wrote:

How do you supply a small alliance on the outer edge of null with these changes to JF?

You blue whatever block that holds the slice of null going to empire.


Forgive me but, isn't the whole point of these changes to reduce the blue blob?