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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Lishana Skjem
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2461 - 2014-10-02 04:46:47 UTC
Simplest solution would have been for the major blocs to do away with NBSI and instate NRDS in all territories. Simply create a site like the CVA use to tell who is blue and who is sos and encourage neutrals to use the unused space. This isn't a problem with the mechanics of null sec this is a problem with the mind set of those who own vast amounts of territory.

The truth is the vast majority of those who would like to get into null don't because a lot of people don't want to rent esp. if their owners are assholes who they can't count on to defend them and the renters know it.

If the major blocs opened their null space to neutrals in the same way Providence does there would have been plenty of gud fights all over the ******* place and **** tons of more content but the largest null empires won't because they be scared of what could happen if they let neutrals in. Meanwhile those in Providence reap the benefits of all the content they create that others claim to want and Providence does it by allowing neutral 3rd parties into their space. This is what generates content that people want.

To put it blunt the majority of null is is full of pussies who want gud fights but aren't willing to make the concession that by acting like isolationists in the same manner as nations like N.Korea they get stagnation and less content. Their pussies not because they won't show up for a fight with over whelming numbers but because you won't let anonymous 3rd parties use your space out of the FEAR of losing your shiny ratting / plexing whatever the **** you do to make isk ships. Mean while those in Providence reap tons of content the larger blocs only wish they had and Provi does it everyday with but a primarily sub cap fleet. God save the rest of null if Providence ever starts encouraging the proliferation of cap fleets and find the FC's to actually start using them to good effect.

There's a reason people flock to Providence and it's because when their there they can run anomalies, mine and do all the other stuff you can do in null sec without asking permission to do it from anyone.

You can do that in anyone else's territory as I do it every day but the majority of people like those who make up Providences 3rd parties want somewhere they can put down roots without being someones whore. So who can blame people who would rather pay station fees and take the occasional loss due to a misunderstanding then be the rental whores of any other null bloc.

Truth is mechanic's aside the stagnation that EVE experiences today is experiencing today is a result of the NBSI policy that the vast majority of Null alliances adhere to and now CCP has to come up with mechanics to somehow fix what is really a problem with the null sec players mindset.

Basically you have the leadership of null sec unable to change the way they do things so their asking for CCP to fix it for them but i'm sure as just in the past it won't matter what CCP does if the leadership of null sec isn't willing to change how they operate and view people outside of their alliances using their space then there will be nothing but stagnation.

The policy of NBSI and those who follow it is basically that by doing the same thing over and over they expect a different result and it just doesn't work that way. If you all let people in your space and shot those in your neighbors space you'd all have plenty of gud fights. If this is what everyone in null was doing then we wouldn't even be having this threadnaught
Kalissis
#2462 - 2014-10-02 04:47:07 UTC
Athryn Bellee wrote:
Do I understand correctly, that the way these changes are set up a JDC5 character in a black ops ship will be able to jump farther than the same character in a capital ship? WTF?


The main change still applies, if BLOPS jump that far they will have a way higher "jump fatigue", so there is not really a big upside except they can bride/jump longer distances at once. Also BLOPS and everything they can bridge is really bad compared to any conventional (and actual used) fleet doctrine.
Logicycle
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#2463 - 2014-10-02 04:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Logicycle
Remember when the DEVs said they wanted to make carriers only launch 5 fighters instead of 15 cuz they thought they were too OP? This thread is like that, only worse.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#2464 - 2014-10-02 04:48:37 UTC
BuddyKnife wrote:
Logistics is the life blood of 0.0 these changes WILL kill 0.0.

No its called you need to do more with your time than buy PLEX and drop carriers on people. 0.0 has great recourses. There is no reason you cant support it where you use them. Learn to rat and mine...
Sakura Nihil
Faded Light
#2465 - 2014-10-02 04:48:44 UTC
I will say that I like the idea behind jump fatigue in limiting the distance a capship can travel in a period of time, but the actual math and timer calculations behind it are a bit too complicated to understand at a glance. They also seem arbitrary, and could use another pass or two before being put on SISI for testing.
Xenocy
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#2466 - 2014-10-02 04:50:07 UTC
Varesk wrote:
There are some problems with this.

An invading force would be required to move thousands of ships and mods. Which as we all know, with these changes would take forever. With the way the timers are set up, Big Blocks can easily push the timers for the 3rd one and have enough time to move their supers/cap fleet to the region. once they are there with their buddies they can just take gates as one unit. The downside is CCPs TiDi mechanics. Now instead of fights taking hours, traveling to a system to defend or attack will also take hours or not happen at all.

Fast Forward 5 months.

CFC/PL/N3 still own the same systems they do now. Except now they have more members. These members are not new recruits, they are new alts for Super Pilots and they are sitting in New Supers in another region that they own. Now they dont have to worry about cool down timers or anything. They just have to log in on that character and have the rest of the members jump clone to the station where they have stocked dreads/carriers and sub caps.

Change is needed, but these ideas are not thought out very well and tend to lead to more characters per person and the strengthening of NullSec as it is.



Exactly.
KanmanDS
235MeV
Waterboard Comedy Tour
#2467 - 2014-10-02 04:50:07 UTC
While these changes MAY be necessary to get the capital ship situation under control, these jump fatigue mechanics should NOT apply to sub-capitals ships. Sub capital ships using their Alliance jump bridges or black ops fleets sneaking around to cause shinanigans is NOT a problem in this game. No one's empire is collapsing to ashes due to unrelenting black ops fleets, and no one wants to hold a Sunday Night Black Ops fleet with 45 minute interludes between drops.

What if you try to launch a fleet for PVP roam and some of your guys have used the jump bridge recently. If your route intended to go through the bridge, go roam, then return home through the bridge, your fleet members may have a wide range of very different jump delay timers when it is time to return.

Forcing the 'everyman' in to more dangerous or time-consuming situations to accomplish 'everday activities' within the game will only frustrate young/new players, deminishing new-player retention.

MAYBE this mechanic makes sense for capitals. Maybe just super-capitals. But definitely DO NOT do this to pilots in sub-capital ships.
Kalissis
#2468 - 2014-10-02 04:51:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalissis
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Sakura Nihil wrote:
The last several pages have been consistent in their message of "these changes are making life harder for logistics pilots".

Yes, they will. That's part of the point. From the looks of it, CCP is trying to push nullsec groups into mining, refining, and building locally in nullsec, rather than getting everything you need in highsec and shipping it out to nullsec for consumption. That was part of the though with the Crius industry changes, to reprocessing in particular.

It makes perfect sense why they're doing it, too. Much of nullsec sits unused, despite being "owned", and the resources out there could fuel local economies, T2 / T3 production, the whole nine yards. Yet, people enjoy the convenience of loading up a JF in Jita and jumping off back to null for one-stop shopping. If you kneecap near-instant logistics, you suddenly create local demands that can be satisfied by manufacturers in nullsec.

Also, keep in mind, if the current vision for EVE pans out, within a few years we're going to be moving out into unknown space, colonizing new systems, opening new stargates, and the like. On the frontier, you harvest resources available to you, rather than running back to developed space for everything you need.

As an aside, I understand that from a personal level, a lot of people have invested time and money into being logistics pilots with JFs, good JDC skills, and all that. Anytime a nerf happens that hits you where you spent SP and ISK, it hurts. But I hope that you and everyone else out there in the same boat will see that we need to make the universe big once again.

Besides, there's always opportunity in these changes... last time I checked, there were cloaky haulers that can ferry loot to and from trade hubs quickly. If people can no longer transport items via JF (easy mode), maybe there's money to be made in a new market? Maybe an EVE version of Western Union?



One small problem - all the materials you need to do production do not exist locally in deep sov null, and these systems can be 30+ LY from lowsec and with a regional gate larger than 5 LY in between. Please tell me how living in such an area which cannot support local production and now requires a full time job consisting of some of the most tedious and boring "gameplay" in eve to supply it is going to be fun at all. Eve is not a job it is a game, I don't sub to eve so I can spend 4 hours a day doing boring sh*t logistics work and gate jumping so that maybe if I'm lucky I can spent the last 15 min I am online doing something I enjoy.

To fix this the 5 LY limit absolutely must be changed and should be based on ship class, not some absurd blanket limit for every ship in the game. And for the love of god this jump fatigue crap that requires me to have a spreadsheet open at all times needs to be simplified and capped. A max jump cool down of 1-3 days for someone that went full ****** and crossed the galaxy accomplishes the goal of keeping them out of any fights for several days without the stupid numbers being quoted today.

I really have little interest in playing a game that consists of me sitting in a station and watching a timer count down to tell me when I can do something fun again,

And all the idiots saying they used to supply nullsec with Indy/freighter convoys before there we're jump drives - that was before the warp speed changes. There is no way in hell I would pay to play a game that required me to jump a freighter at 5+ min per system 30+ jumps into hostile space. There is no fun to be had there.


There is an answer right there in your text, if its far away what you need then move there, problem solved, and if you think that NULL cant support building T1 hulls, well go and read some of eve uni wikis. Now you say you need to build T2 blablabla... how about adjusting to the new system, if you wont someone else will. Its really simple, most of the heavy stuff you can acquire in NULL everything else you can ship in.
ryan meyer
Dromedaworks inc
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#2469 - 2014-10-02 04:51:33 UTC
A I like to point something out goonswarm you suck please go home because your drunk, and B this chage will bring more unneeded cancer to this game... Thank you it's not pointed out to me to see my caps.
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#2470 - 2014-10-02 04:52:10 UTC
KanmanDS wrote:
While these changes MAY be necessary to get the capital ship situation under control, these jump fatigue mechanics should NOT apply to sub-capitals ships. Sub capital ships using their Alliance jump bridges or black ops fleets sneaking around to cause shinanigans is NOT a problem in this game. No one's empire is collapsing to ashes due to unrelenting black ops fleets, and no one wants to hold a Sunday Night Black Ops fleet with 45 minute interludes between drops.

What if you try to launch a fleet for PVP roam and some of your guys have used the jump bridge recently. If your route intended to go through the bridge, go roam, then return home through the bridge, your fleet members may have a wide range of very different jump delay timers when it is time to return.

Forcing the 'everyman' in to more dangerous or time-consuming situations to accomplish 'everday activities' within the game will only frustrate young/new players, deminishing new-player retention.

MAYBE this mechanic makes sense for capitals. Maybe just super-capitals. But definitely DO NOT do this to pilots in sub-capital ships.


Right, because the CFC using their JB network to move 1500 megathrons to a timer fight totally isn't causing any problems in the game.
Crosi Wesdo
War and Order
#2471 - 2014-10-02 04:52:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Crosi Wesdo
Pretty sure there would be far simpler more arbitrary rules to achieve the same effect. Just a fixed rate jump cool down timer of 10 minutes would be good enough to allow smaller entities to deploy caps in the knowledge that a large entity 2 mids away might be 30 minutes away from crashing the party. A party that wont last 30 minutes because no instant escalation.

Make occupancy contingent on maintaining a presence in any particular system as per something like faction war mechanics. Remove the ******** timer fights over infrastructure. Add a 10 minute cool down timer per jump on cap fleets relocating 50 supercaps to vaporise some small gang cap escalation. No need for all this convoluted S*H*I*T imo.

Also, so my jump freighter can no longer reach anywhere from jita undock?
I guess i might as well sell it since a 6 billion isk block of useless pixels ganked on its out gate at the will of some scrubs that i have no ability to counter really is too expensive for me. I guess ill no longer be supplying hundreds of millions of isk of ships to fuel content in FW lowsec.
Kayanarkan
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#2472 - 2014-10-02 04:53:18 UTC
Karash Amerius wrote:
Looks like this is mainly pissing off the "surprise! buttsecs" crowd.


I dont like it because the only reason I ever got a carrier was to move my ships easier when going on a deployment or such. Now that I will not have any reason to ever bother jumping a Capital ship again I really want all those skill points back for the jump skills.
Kah'Roor
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#2473 - 2014-10-02 04:54:39 UTC
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
Sral TBear wrote:
Remember how you did it the old days, this will be just like that. So the game is not evolving, its actualy rolling back Question

Eve is a sandbox, you just have to adapt. Well i have done that since 2005, but i cant adapt to get more RL time to play the game Sad

Ha ha cap pilot tears are the best tears. Ya proberbly, but stil sux to loose the one asset we had so we could live in 0.0 as a small corpWhat?

Again, i have been changing play style since 2005, every hick up, every "awsome" change, in general they have not toutched the one thing i cant do anything about, RL time to play the game. Over the years they actualy made it a tad easyer. I will wait and se, but these changes might be that one magical drop in the glassRoll

Kinda sux getting a felling about being forced out of a game because i want to keep a RL to. (Im a semi old fart with family and a job)Straight





This exactly. These changes do not make it harder for me to play - they make it impossible. I will unsub over the JF nerf because I have no choice.

Those suggesting we produce locally in 0.0 or use blockade runners are ignorance incarnate, dancing around on stilts wearing clown costumes.

Bye... I miss you already.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#2474 - 2014-10-02 04:56:33 UTC
KanmanDS wrote:
While these changes MAY be necessary to get the capital ship situation under control, these jump fatigue mechanics should NOT apply to sub-capitals ships. Sub capital ships using their Alliance jump bridges or black ops fleets sneaking around to cause shinanigans is NOT a problem in this game. No one's empire is collapsing to ashes due to unrelenting black ops fleets, and no one wants to hold a Sunday Night Black Ops fleet with 45 minute interludes between drops.

What if you try to launch a fleet for PVP roam and some of your guys have used the jump bridge recently. If your route intended to go through the bridge, go roam, then return home through the bridge, your fleet members may have a wide range of very different jump delay timers when it is time to return.

Forcing the 'everyman' in to more dangerous or time-consuming situations to accomplish 'everday activities' within the game will only frustrate young/new players, deminishing new-player retention.

MAYBE this mechanic makes sense for capitals. Maybe just super-capitals. But definitely DO NOT do this to pilots in sub-capital ships.

It shouldn't apply to jump bridges or haulers or MOST sub caps. It should apply to Black OPs because hot dropping is WAY out of control. I cant even begin to tell you how many ratting ships I've lost to 1 ship dropping 40 bombers on my head. Its dumb old and ridiculous, especially when said cyno ship can sit in your system cloaked for weeks at a time.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2475 - 2014-10-02 04:56:54 UTC
BuddyKnife wrote:
Logistics is the life blood of 0.0 these changes WILL kill 0.0.

They can literally keep every* mechanic except the range nerf to Rorquals and Jump Freighters. This would be nothing but win if they did.,


*They might also consider letting the Rorqual SMA hold any kind of ship....
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2476 - 2014-10-02 04:57:53 UTC
Detria wrote:
2014.10.01 16:43 -> 2014.10.02 04:43 - 125 pages and 2500 replies.... This a record yet? First impression? Horrible ideas...

Marauder thread got about 200 pages i beleieve
Andrea Keuvo
Rusty Pricks
#2477 - 2014-10-02 04:58:12 UTC
Kalissis wrote:
Andrea Keuvo wrote:
Sakura Nihil wrote:
The last several pages have been consistent in their message of "these changes are making life harder for logistics pilots".

Yes, they will. That's part of the point. From the looks of it, CCP is trying to push nullsec groups into mining, refining, and building locally in nullsec, rather than getting everything you need in highsec and shipping it out to nullsec for consumption. That was part of the though with the Crius industry changes, to reprocessing in particular.

It makes perfect sense why they're doing it, too. Much of nullsec sits unused, despite being "owned", and the resources out there could fuel local economies, T2 / T3 production, the whole nine yards. Yet, people enjoy the convenience of loading up a JF in Jita and jumping off back to null for one-stop shopping. If you kneecap near-instant logistics, you suddenly create local demands that can be satisfied by manufacturers in nullsec.

Also, keep in mind, if the current vision for EVE pans out, within a few years we're going to be moving out into unknown space, colonizing new systems, opening new stargates, and the like. On the frontier, you harvest resources available to you, rather than running back to developed space for everything you need.

As an aside, I understand that from a personal level, a lot of people have invested time and money into being logistics pilots with JFs, good JDC skills, and all that. Anytime a nerf happens that hits you where you spent SP and ISK, it hurts. But I hope that you and everyone else out there in the same boat will see that we need to make the universe big once again.

Besides, there's always opportunity in these changes... last time I checked, there were cloaky haulers that can ferry loot to and from trade hubs quickly. If people can no longer transport items via JF (easy mode), maybe there's money to be made in a new market? Maybe an EVE version of Western Union?



One small problem - all the materials you need to do production do not exist locally in deep sov null, and these systems can be 30+ LY from lowsec and with a regional gate larger than 5 LY in between. Please tell me how living in such an area which cannot support local production and now requires a full time job consisting of some of the most tedious and boring "gameplay" in eve to supply it is going to be fun at all. Eve is not a job it is a game, I don't sub to eve so I can spend 4 hours a day doing boring sh*t logistics work and gate jumping so that maybe if I'm lucky I can spent the last 15 min I am online doing something I enjoy.

To fix this the 5 LY limit absolutely must be changed and should be based on ship class, not some absurd blanket limit for every ship in the game. And for the love of god this jump fatigue crap that requires me to have a spreadsheet open at all times needs to be simplified and capped. A max jump cool down of 1-3 days for someone that went full ****** and crossed the galaxy accomplishes the goal of keeping them out of any fights for several days without the stupid numbers being quoted today.

I really have little interest in playing a game that consists of me sitting in a station and watching a timer count down to tell me when I can do something fun again,

And all the idiots saying they used to supply nullsec with Indy/freighter convoys before there we're jump drives - that was before the warp speed changes. There is no way in hell I would pay to play a game that required me to jump a freighter at 5+ min per system 30+ jumps into hostile space. There is no fun to be had there.


There is an answer right there in your text, if its far away what you need then move there, problem solved, and if you think that NULL cant support building T1 hulls, well go and read some of eve uni wikis. Now you say you need to build T2 blablabla... how about adjusting to the new system, if you wont someone else will. Its really simple, most of the heavy stuff you can acquire in NULL everything else you can ship in.


Yes, I totally see people in nullsec flying primarily T1 hulls...not. I'm not saying you can't do it, but if I have 10 hours per week to play eve and I used to get to spend 9 hours doing something I find fun and 1 hour on tedious logistics work, and now I find that I'm spending 8 hours on tedious logistics and have 2 hours left for fun it's probably time to move on to some game where the devs are a bit less clueless.
Brigadine Ferathine
Presumed Dead Enterprises
Against ALL Authorities.
#2478 - 2014-10-02 04:58:22 UTC
Kah'Roor wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:
Sral TBear wrote:
Remember how you did it the old days, this will be just like that. So the game is not evolving, its actualy rolling back Question

Eve is a sandbox, you just have to adapt. Well i have done that since 2005, but i cant adapt to get more RL time to play the game Sad

Ha ha cap pilot tears are the best tears. Ya proberbly, but stil sux to loose the one asset we had so we could live in 0.0 as a small corpWhat?

Again, i have been changing play style since 2005, every hick up, every "awsome" change, in general they have not toutched the one thing i cant do anything about, RL time to play the game. Over the years they actualy made it a tad easyer. I will wait and se, but these changes might be that one magical drop in the glassRoll

Kinda sux getting a felling about being forced out of a game because i want to keep a RL to. (Im a semi old fart with family and a job)Straight





This exactly. These changes do not make it harder for me to play - they make it impossible. I will unsub over the JF nerf because I have no choice.

Those suggesting we produce locally in 0.0 or use blockade runners are ignorance incarnate, dancing around on stilts wearing clown costumes.

Bye... I miss you already.

You wont be missed.
Nazri al Mahdi
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#2479 - 2014-10-02 04:58:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Nazri al Mahdi
Kah'Roor wrote:
Nazri al Mahdi wrote:


This exactly. These changes do not make it harder for me to play - they make it impossible. I will unsub over the JF nerf because I have no choice.

Those suggesting we produce locally in 0.0 or use blockade runners are ignorance incarnate, dancing around on stilts wearing clown costumes.

Bye... I miss you already.


Well aren't you a sweetheart? If this change goes through (unlikely), it will be EVE's famous playerbase of sperglords and sociopaths that I will miss the most, and I say that without a hint of sarcasm, honest.
Sigras
Conglomo
#2480 - 2014-10-02 04:59:27 UTC
Tribalist wrote:
What bothers me is the lack of respect CCP shows it's player/ customer base.

To start a DEV Blog where CCP responds top comments with "We'll have to look at that" or "We'll need to consider that" it becomes apparent they gave the actual mechanics very little thought.

There's just no pleasing you people...

CCP comes out with a dev blog asking for player input and you people complain that they didnt put enough thought into it,

CCP comes out with a dev blog after all the details have been firmed up and you people complain that they didnt give you enough time to test the chances and arent asking for input

WHAT THE HECK DO YOU WANT?! ... Oh I know, you just want to complain... well mission accomplished.
Tribalist wrote:
Now, to all the Tear collectors, Have a laugh. But it's not about us vs. them. It's about people feeling passionately about a game we all play. It will be a poorer experience for all of us if a large percentage leave.

I read the article in TMC about the "Come to Jesus" moment, and this has the potential for that in two very different ways.
#1. CCP creates a new way to play, possibly having Jump Drive Spool Down timers (5 minutes to a max of 10 Minutes) and who knows, possibly even letting Caps jump through Null and Low Sec gates.
#2. Customers realize that CCP as a company has no respect for their time or money invested into CCP's product and act accordingly. For me that would be inactivating my accounts until I feel that the game is something I want to play again.

The majority of the Posts in this thread demonstrate a passion and a commitment to this game, and the reaction displayed is one of anger, outrage and hurt because we the average EVE player feels invested in the game.

Please CCP Fix the game, but don't break it or disrespect us while doing it.

Im sorry that they're nerfing your risk free, instant travel, unlimited force projection, but those days are over and really honestly never should have happened in the first place.

Im sorry that your effortless, maintenance free, isk printing, renting empires may be getting smaller, but that isnt a bad thing for the majority of the player base as you claim it is.

What I see now is the oppressors losing some of their ability to oppress and they dont like it, but that doesnt make it a bad thing for the majority of people, just bad for the oppressors.