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Hobojamming Fix [Dictors]
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Samillian
Angry Mustellid
#41 - 2014-09-29 13:49:53 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Bubble immune dictors would be wtfbbqop. Just saying.

Rest of your feedback I'm looking into and taking note of, keep it coming.


Original post

I agree with the above statement.

One of the many things EvE doesn't need is yet another almost uncatchable ship, especially one with the capabilities of the dictor class.

NBSI shall be the whole of the Law
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#42 - 2014-09-29 13:52:12 UTC
Veng3ance wrote:
RomeStar wrote:
OP try to understand the tactic. When small pvp roaming gangs shotgun systems the first place out dictor goes is to the station. He then drops a bubble on the undock which catches any idiot ratter who warps back to the station because he saw hostiles in local thus being caught in our bubble. Just because its a pain in the ass and you proablly were caught and died in one doesn't mean the mechanic is broken. Please understand Null Sec is not safe.


Are you serious? This is not the tactic being talked about..... at all.

It's not, but it is another perfectly valid tactic that would be disrupted by the OP's proposal.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Veng3ance
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2014-09-29 13:54:54 UTC
Logon Trap wrote:
hobojamming is working as intended

i hear the new wow expansion has pandas, maybe you should gb2wow if you cant handle npc null


Such a good argument.

EVE needs hobojamming and abusing the **** out of mechanics or its WOW.
Veng3ance
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#44 - 2014-09-29 13:56:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Veng3ance
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Veng3ance wrote:
RomeStar wrote:
OP try to understand the tactic. When small pvp roaming gangs shotgun systems the first place out dictor goes is to the station. He then drops a bubble on the undock which catches any idiot ratter who warps back to the station because he saw hostiles in local thus being caught in our bubble. Just because its a pain in the ass and you proablly were caught and died in one doesn't mean the mechanic is broken. Please understand Null Sec is not safe.


Are you serious? This is not the tactic being talked about..... at all.

It's not, but it is another perfectly valid tactic that would be disrupted by the OP's proposal.


HOW?

I am in a dictor. I warp to station and bubble the undock. I get agression. And this prevents ratters from landing in my bubble somehow?
Veng3ance
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#45 - 2014-09-29 14:00:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Veng3ance
Bronson Hughes wrote:

The current 'dictor bubble aggression mechanics are not a weakness in the game, they were a deliberate decision by CCP to make it easier for 'dictors to drop bubbles and GTFO via stargate. I rather think that giving 'dictors Interdiction Nullification as the OP suggested would be completely broken and exploited in ways that make hobojamming look like Noobships Online.

Also, dropping a bubble and leaving system (via stargate or station) is not quite like leaving drones behind and having them shoot something. You have no control over a 'dictor bubble once you drop it, and it impacts all comers the same way, hostile or no. Drones are something you control, and have a finite control range measured in kilometers, not AU and not light-years.


Can large groups use Hobojamming to their advantage? Absolutely.

Does this make Hobojamming inherently broken? Nope.

Why not? Because small groups can use Hobojamming as well.


Man you just have no idea what you are talking about.

Small groups CAN NOT use hobojamming. Can you dock inside a CFC or N3 Station?

Oh you cant? Then you can't hobojam.

The tactic is biased against groups trying to make it and grow in NPC Null sec.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#46 - 2014-09-29 14:13:25 UTC
Samillian wrote:
One of the many things EvE doesn't need is yet another almost uncatchable ship, especially one with the capabilities of the dictor class.


Well to be fair, it'll be childs play for even a drunk inty pilot to nail one.

The other ships are troublesome because either a) cloaky or b) align on a dime. Dictors do neither well enough to bother an inty pilot.

Might actually open up some cool possibilities being able to breach defensive/delay bubbles at a cost of leaving your fleet behind.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2014-09-29 14:27:30 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Hobojamming is when a Interdictor repeatedly undocks bubbles the undock of a NPC station and then redocks.

Change
ArrowInterdictors gain Interdiction nullification
ArrowLaunching a Interdiction Sphere creates aggression

EzLyfe EzGame


Won't people just adapt and do :

1- Undock
2- Bubble
3- Insta off station (they are nullified anyway with your change)
4- Warp to a serie of safe to always be in warp while the 1 minute timer expire
5- Warp at 0 on a docking BM to insta dock
6- Dock
7- **** up local
8- Go to 1

All you do is put a delay for the aggression timer to expire so they can re dock to start the cycle back again.
Absocold
Origin.
Fraternity.
#48 - 2014-09-29 14:38:14 UTC
Pamplie wrote:
They could change it to make the probe explode when the person docks.


THIS
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#49 - 2014-09-29 14:41:15 UTC
Veng3ance wrote:
Man you just have no idea what you are talking about.

Small groups CAN NOT use hobojamming. Can you dock inside a CFC or N3 Station?

Oh you cant? Then you can't hobojam.

The tactic is biased against groups trying to make it and grow in NPC Null sec.

I never said you could use it against a station that you don't own. Quite frankly, I think it should be hard to lock down someone that holds sov into their own station. Isn't that what sov is all about? (Yes, I think sov mechanics are broken, but that's another topic.)

Let me ask you: if the only place that small groups can actually hobojam is NPC nullsec, how exactly is it biased against anyone in NPC nulsec? NPC Nullsec is the only place hobojamming is not biased to favor large sov holders.

OP's changes would make it harder for everyone to hobojam in NPC nullsec, make it possible, yet still hard, for small groups to hobojam a station they don't own, and make it harder, yet still possible, for station-owners to hobojam their own station.


All this fuss to fix something that CCP hasn't even declared to be broken, would revert back to a state that CCP decided was broken (i.e. bubble aggression), and would potentially be even more broken than now (Interdiction Nullified 'dictors)? No thanks.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Austrene Kanenald
Doomheim
#50 - 2014-09-29 14:41:45 UTC
Veng3ance wrote:
Bronson Hughes wrote:

The current 'dictor bubble aggression mechanics are not a weakness in the game, they were a deliberate decision by CCP to make it easier for 'dictors to drop bubbles and GTFO via stargate. I rather think that giving 'dictors Interdiction Nullification as the OP suggested would be completely broken and exploited in ways that make hobojamming look like Noobships Online.

Also, dropping a bubble and leaving system (via stargate or station) is not quite like leaving drones behind and having them shoot something. You have no control over a 'dictor bubble once you drop it, and it impacts all comers the same way, hostile or no. Drones are something you control, and have a finite control range measured in kilometers, not AU and not light-years.


Can large groups use Hobojamming to their advantage? Absolutely.

Does this make Hobojamming inherently broken? Nope.

Why not? Because small groups can use Hobojamming as well.


Man you just have no idea what you are talking about.

Small groups CAN NOT use hobojamming. Can you dock inside a CFC or N3 Station?

Oh you cant? Then you can't hobojam.

The tactic is biased against groups trying to make it and grow in NPC Null sec.

What the hell does docking in sov null or being a small group have to do with npc null stations? 1 person could hobo jam, if they wanted to.
Austrene Kanenald
Doomheim
#51 - 2014-09-29 14:45:27 UTC
Manfred Sideous wrote:
Hobojamming is when a Interdictor repeatedly undocks bubbles the undock of a NPC station and then redocks.

Change
ArrowInterdictors gain Interdiction nullification
ArrowLaunching a Interdiction Sphere creates aggression

EzLyfe EzGame


  1. How would making interdictions immune to their own bubbles prevent hobo jamming? It would only fix it for other interdictions.
  2. Kind of makes sense, but doesn't really. I was under the impression that probes, once launched, had nothing to do with the ship. Like anchoring bubbles, but without the wait time.
Veng3ance
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2014-09-29 15:06:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Veng3ance
Austrene Kanenald wrote:

What the hell does docking in sov null or being a small group have to do with npc null stations? 1 person could hobo jam, if they wanted to.


Here let me break it down for you. This has happened to Black Legion multiple times just so you know.

Black Legion is staged in K3J in Venal lets say.

Pandemic Legion is hobojamming our station with a dictor.

Black Legion CAN NOT go hobojam Pandemic Legion because they live in a sov station.

Here is another example.

Black Legion is staged in X-7

Goonswarm is hobojamming the station.

Black Legion CAN NOT go hobojam Goonswarm because they live in a sov station.

Notice how the small group can not do the hobojamming on equal terms with the larger alliances?


Now to make matters even worse (And this has happened before).

We are in K3J, we are being hobojammed. BUT we can use bombers to clear the undock for example meaning the situation is not horribly bad.

However, there is a Sniping Loki who keeps warping around station and popping bombers.

He is very very hard to catch, and also the dictor is invulnerable (from hobojamming tactics).

TO MAKE IT EVEN WORSE.

Same situation. You are now in X-7.

The dock radius on the station is so large you can't cloak your bombers when preparing to bomb the undock.

The sniper is now here.

The situation is ****** and two people are locking down your entire cap fleet.

What do you do?


This is the kind of bullshit that smaller groups are dealing with in NPC null.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#53 - 2014-09-29 15:24:24 UTC
Veng3ance wrote:
... This is the kind of bullshit that smaller groups are dealing with in NPC null.

1. If Goonswarm or PL were staging out of an NPC nullsec station like you were, you could just as easily hobojam them into that station. Likewise, you can just as easily hobojam non-sov-holders into stations in NPC null. This is what I mean when I say that there is no hobojamming bias in NPC nullsec.
2. These changes won't change the fact that Goonswarm and PL can hobojam you into an NPC nullsec station, it'll just make it slightly harder for them.
3. These changes would, potentially, let you hobojam Goonswarm and PL into stations that they own, but most likely they'll just use tactics like the sniping Loki to pop your 'dictors.
4. Your problem isn't with hobojamming, it's with the fact that that you can't hobojam Alliances into stations that they own.
5. If you want to be immune to hobojamming, hold yer own sov. Admittedly, this is an exceedingly difficult proposition at the moment given the current state of sov mechanics. Ultimately, I feel like this is the real issue. Hobojamming is just a symptom of larger sov issues.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Sabine Vynneve
Paisti
#54 - 2014-09-29 15:25:34 UTC
Pamplie wrote:
They could change it to make the probe explode when the person docks.

This is genuinely a very good idea, CCP implement this please
Veng3ance
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#55 - 2014-09-29 15:36:07 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Veng3ance wrote:
... This is the kind of bullshit that smaller groups are dealing with in NPC null.

1. If Goonswarm or PL were staging out of an NPC nullsec station like you were, you could just as easily hobojam them into that station. Likewise, you can just as easily hobojam non-sov-holders into stations in NPC null. This is what I mean when I say that there is no hobojamming bias in NPC nullsec.
2. These changes won't change the fact that Goonswarm and PL can hobojam you into an NPC nullsec station, it'll just make it slightly harder for them.
3. These changes would, potentially, let you hobojam Goonswarm and PL into stations that they own, but most likely they'll just use tactics like the sniping Loki to pop your 'dictors.
4. Your problem isn't with hobojamming, it's with the fact that that you can't hobojam Alliances into stations that they own.
5. If you want to be immune to hobojamming, hold yer own sov. Admittedly, this is an exceedingly difficult proposition at the moment given the current state of sov mechanics. Ultimately, I feel like this is the real issue. Hobojamming is just a symptom of larger sov issues.


1. Duh
2. I feel like you don't know what hobojamming is.
3. I feel like you don't know what hobojamming is.
4. No my problem is with hobojamming
5. I feel like my points almost dawned on you but you missed it.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#56 - 2014-09-29 15:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Veng3ance wrote:

2. I feel like you don't know what hobojamming is.

Currently, hobojamming consists of a 'dictor undocking, dropping a bubble, and immediately re-docking before being able to be targeted, let alone killed. Said 'dictor repeats this often enough to keep the undock perma-bubbled. It's a highly effective way to keep the undock point of a station locked down.

Did I miss anything?


OP has suggested that 'dictors be granted an aggression timer for dropping a bubble and Interdiction Nullification. It's this second part that means that hobojamming will just change slightly, not stop.

If the OP's changes get implemented, you'll still be able to hobojam a station, and you won't even have to dock there so you'll actually be able to hobojam more stations than you can now. All you need is a bookmark for the undock, and two offgrid bookmarks, preferably forming a straight line with the undock bookmark in the middle.

1. Start off at one bookmark, cloaked.
2. Warp to undock.
3. Bubble.
4. Immediately warp to the other bookmark because, hey, you're Interdiction Nullified.
5. Cloak.
6. Repeat from 1.

There is a brief window where you can target and point/kill the 'dictor, but not much. A basic Eris with no fleet/drug/implant bonuses can get align times pushing 2 seconds; almost instawarp from a server tick standpoint. With a bit of bling and/or a fleet booster, you could almost certainly get it to insta-align times. EDIT: And this is before the upcoming Eris mass reduction in Oceanus.

So, really, this change would just alter how hobojamming works while expanding it's availability to stations you can't dock at, not stop it.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
GeeShizzle MacCloud
#57 - 2014-09-29 16:09:05 UTC
Living out of an NPC Null station has to have disadvantages and this is one of them.

If you dont like it, save your tears and go cry about it in your nearest lowsec station.

if you're in an entity like PL and even though you have sov-null stations and the ability to defend them, but 'choose' to live in lowsec then, im sorry i cant help you. Either drop alliance and join someone else or complain to your leader, not me or others who both cant be arsed to, and wont even if we were able to, to lift a finger to help you.
Austrene Kanenald
Doomheim
#58 - 2014-09-29 16:23:24 UTC
Veng3ance wrote:
Austrene Kanenald wrote:

What the hell does docking in sov null or being a small group have to do with npc null stations? 1 person could hobo jam, if they wanted to.


Here let me break it down for you. This has happened to Black Legion multiple times just so you know.

Black Legion is staged in K3J in Venal lets say.

Pandemic Legion is hobojamming our station with a dictor.

Black Legion CAN NOT go hobojam Pandemic Legion because they live in a sov station.

Here is another example.

Black Legion is staged in X-7

Goonswarm is hobojamming the station.

Black Legion CAN NOT go hobojam Goonswarm because they live in a sov station.

Notice how the small group can not do the hobojamming on equal terms with the larger alliances?


Now to make matters even worse (And this has happened before).

We are in K3J, we are being hobojammed. BUT we can use bombers to clear the undock for example meaning the situation is not horribly bad.

However, there is a Sniping Loki who keeps warping around station and popping bombers.

He is very very hard to catch, and also the dictor is invulnerable (from hobojamming tactics).

What do you do about this situation?

TO MAKE IT EVEN WORSE.

Same situation. You are now in X-7.

The dock radius on the station is so large you can't cloak your bombers when preparing to bomb the undock.

The sniper is now here.

The situation is ****** and two people are locking down your entire cap fleet.

What do you do?


This is the kind of bullshit that smaller groups are dealing with in NPC null.

I don't think that problem is to do with hobo jamming as much as it is to do with the fact you can't dock in their stations.
Your suggestion doesn't change much though, because they can just drop bubble, warp, wait for it to be destroyed, warp back, repeat.
Sabine Vynneve wrote:
Pamplie wrote:
They could change it to make the probe explode when the person docks.

This is genuinely a very good idea, CCP implement this please

It's a nice idea. But how would it work? I was under the impression that those probes weren't linked to your ship/launcher after deployment, because the launcher literally only deploys and onlines it.
Burneddi
Avanto
Hole Control
#59 - 2014-09-29 16:29:53 UTC
Austrene Kanenald wrote:

Sabine Vynneve wrote:
Pamplie wrote:
They could change it to make the probe explode when the person docks.

This is genuinely a very good idea, CCP implement this please

It's a nice idea. But how would it work? I was under the impression that those probes weren't linked to your ship/launcher after deployment, because the launcher literally only deploys and onlines it.

They used to get you on killmails and give you aggression. I doubt they just completely axed all the code that connected them to your ship back then.
Austrene Kanenald
Doomheim
#60 - 2014-09-29 16:32:10 UTC
Burneddi wrote:
Austrene Kanenald wrote:

Sabine Vynneve wrote:
Pamplie wrote:
They could change it to make the probe explode when the person docks.

This is genuinely a very good idea, CCP implement this please

It's a nice idea. But how would it work? I was under the impression that those probes weren't linked to your ship/launcher after deployment, because the launcher literally only deploys and onlines it.

They used to get you on killmails and give you aggression. I doubt they just completely axed all the code that connected them to your ship back then.

Ooh. Well, it's a good idea then. Although someone lol probably figure ought a counter for it sooner or later.