These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

The Null Deal: A Statement from Sovereign Nullsec

First post First post
Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#521 - 2014-09-30 13:34:14 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
There would still be fights, reimbursments, capital ships, etc.

Could you tell me who would the CFC fight with? Against Arthasdklol's mining corp?
Would you call the current PL vs HERO/Provi encounters "fights"? Because I sure call them ganks.

Fights needs able enemies who can shoot back. Who else can shoot back to Goons than N3/PL?


Anyone who want to try.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#522 - 2014-09-30 13:35:00 UTC
Speedkermit Damo wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:
Yes, yes and yes.

It surprises me that goons would propose this when it would hurt them the most.

Respect.


It doesn't hurt them, or they wouldn't have proposed it.


So tell us, why did we push for the tech nerf when we held almost all of it?
Regatto
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#523 - 2014-09-30 13:57:02 UTC
Did somebody mention some complete proposal how that occupancy based SOV would work? I may have missed it...everything i read was very sketchy and without any actual details
Toriessian
Helion Production Labs
Independent Operators Consortium
#524 - 2014-09-30 14:09:15 UTC
I can point to one side and say they have an idea for occupancy based sov that looks like it'll make room for others.

I have nothing to point to from the other side. Not a name for an idea. Not an outline. Nothing. I've seen some reasonable concerns, but nothing that says sov based occupancy is a bad idea and worse than what we have now.

Every day I'm wafflin!

WILLY TROPICAL
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#525 - 2014-09-30 14:24:53 UTC
I would like to know the opinion of CCP. For now, this thread is just free trolling and pointless speculations.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#526 - 2014-09-30 14:27:53 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Could you tell me who would the CFC fight with? Against Arthasdklol's mining corp?
Would you call the current PL vs HERO/Provi encounters "fights"? Because I sure call them ganks.
Exactly the same people they fight with now. Or are you suggesting that if the CFC lived in a smaller area of space that MoA would just fold up and stop fighting?

Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Fights needs able enemies who can shoot back. Who else can shoot back to Goons than N3/PL?
According to you the main enemy of the CFC is not N3/PL, so how come N3/PL are suddenly the only people who can shoot back?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

KBLUEJACK54
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#527 - 2014-09-30 14:28:09 UTC
All well and good proposing stuffz to CCP in this manner, but essentially it is down to them to look at the current situation with a different mind set than they have exhibited these past four years.

This game was always about balance, somehow along the way this has slipped aside in favour of one aspect of game play, heavily weighted in this manner it is not good for EVE in the long term.

While I agree in principle with some points in this list of proposals, CCP needs to look very hard at why this imbalance has come about in the first instance and then set about correcting it.

EVE was never about any one aspect of game play but about the multiplicity of interactions brought about by the differing styles offered within the construct that is EVE, Careless tinkering with that in the past has been the promotion of a broken game such as we currently have now, CCP admit that EVE has been damaged and before they run off looking to change yet more stuff they need to correct that first, then build on that solid foundation again or risk having the whole thing collapse even further into the realms of a simple FPS with bling.
Arsine Mayhem
Doomheim
#528 - 2014-09-30 14:31:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Arsine Mayhem
Thomas Hurt wrote:
If Goons came up with it, it can't be good, IMO


NPC systems throughout null sec for launch points would be one.

http://eveeditorial.wordpress.com/2014/09/29/the-voices-have-spoken-but-to-what-end/
Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#529 - 2014-09-30 14:50:19 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Lucas Kell wrote:
Exactly the same people they fight with now. Or are you suggesting that if the CFC lived in a smaller area of space that MoA would just fold up and stop fighting?


Likely yes. They would carve out a little constellation for themselves around the 5XKK station and won't bother to go 25 jumps to find the nearest Goon. They would get rich from Mordus LP and a green killboard from farming nearby terribads. They aren't saints and heroes, they prefer the easy way for their goals.

Currently their options are fighting CFC till the bitter end and bend a knee. They are indeed better than most who bent a knee. With the suggestion they'll have the option to not fight with CFC and not bend a knee.

Same for everyone else. PASTA, Tri, Mortuus will all carve out a little constellation and will be ratting there until they are too bored to log in.

*Snip* Removed reply to an edited out part of the quoted post. ISD Ezwal.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#530 - 2014-09-30 15:04:07 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Likely yes. They would carve out a little constellation for themselves around the 5XKK station and won't bother to go 25 jumps to find the nearest Goon. They would get rich from Mordus LP and a green killboard from farming nearby terribads. They aren't saints and heroes, they prefer the easy way for their goals.
Since one of their stated goals is the destruction of the CFC, why wouldn't they move to wherever the CFC is and continue fighting them? If they are only interested in farming LP, why aren't they doing that now? They don;t have to fight the CFC, that's a choice they've made. You're suggesting that choice is entirely because we happen to be nearby.

Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Currently their options are fighting CFC till the bitter end and bend a knee. They are indeed better than most who bent a knee. With the suggestion they'll have the option to not fight with CFC and not bend a knee.
Why is that their only choice? There's N3/PL, there HERO/Brave, there's CVA, there's random pirate groups. Or they could currently be ratting their days away. They choose to fight the CFC. There's no reason to assume they wouldn't choose to after a change.

Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Same for everyone else. PASTA, Tri, Mortuus will all carve out a little constellation and will be ratting there until they are too bored to log in.
*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
People aren't just sitting around fighting because ratting is too hard. If people wanted to rat, they would rat. They are making an active choice to PvP because that's what they enjoy doing. If a change was made they aren't going to suddenly say "Well now I guess we'll have to rat instead! Boring!".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Ms Forum Alt
Doomheim
#531 - 2014-09-30 15:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Ms Forum Alt
For those of you who're interested, here's how something like a Perlin Noise Plasma evolves over time.

Now imagine that was truesec and moon goo spread across the universe. CCP can tweak the frequency, amplitude (including in the time dimension to make it evolve fast or more slowly). Notice how "hotspots" form in different regions of the map at different times. Different frequencies produce more or fewer hotspots of different sizes. See what works and what doesn't.

This is how I imagine dynamic content should look and I think (personally) that dynamic content would drive conflict.
Carl Stonewall
Valentine Drone Design
#532 - 2014-09-30 15:14:19 UTC
Andski wrote:


So why would we (and PL) completely ruin our diplomatic credibility by conning most of nullsec into putting their names on a proposal that would be completely against their interests?


What are you on about?
Eyrun Mangeiri
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#533 - 2014-09-30 15:17:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Eyrun Mangeiri
Carl Stonewall wrote:
Andski wrote:


So why would we (and PL) completely ruin our diplomatic credibility by conning most of nullsec into putting their names on a proposal that would be completely against their interests?


What are you on about?


In your post you just talk about how this would benefit PL or CFC, while nearly every leader of an alliance in nullsec has signed it. That includes Nulli Secunda.

I can see what you see not - vision milky then eyes rot. When you turn they will be gone - whispering their hidden song.

Gevlon Goblin
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#534 - 2014-09-30 15:33:15 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
They don;t have to fight the CFC, that's a choice they've made. You're suggesting that choice is entirely because we happen to be nearby.

Indeed. Open Dotlan! Everything around their station is CFC land. They can't fight anyone else but CFC. Sure, they could move somewhere else, but somebody else already live there. If they move to NPC Fountain, they have to fight CFC. If they move to NPC Delve, they have to fight CFC. If they move Stain, they have to fight N3. If they move Great Wilderlands, they have to fight PL. Anywhere they move they have to fight someone competent who lives there. Their choices are:
- deciding which one of the big empires they fight
- or they can give up, crawl back to Empire and disband

With the new proposal, most land will be abandoned and open for anyone. The nearest able enemy will be 20+ jumps away. Sure, they will form an anti-CFC roam once a week or so, just for the old times sake, but they won't have conflict of interest with the CFC. The CFC will be a bad historic enemy to them, like BoB is to Goons. Old MoA members will tell stories about the glorious days of fighting CFC to new ones, but for new ones CFC will be just another bunch of players 20 jumps away.

My blog: greedygoblin.blogspot.com

Alp Khan
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#535 - 2014-09-30 15:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Alp Khan
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
They don;t have to fight the CFC, that's a choice they've made. You're suggesting that choice is entirely because we happen to be nearby.

Indeed. Open Dotlan! Everything around their station is CFC land. They can't fight anyone else but CFC. Sure, they could move somewhere else, but somebody else already live there. If they move to NPC Fountain, they have to fight CFC. If they move to NPC Delve, they have to fight CFC. If they move Stain, they have to fight N3. If they move Great Wilderlands, they have to fight PL. Anywhere they move they have to fight someone competent who lives there. Their choices are:
- deciding which one of the big empires they fight
- or they can give up, crawl back to Empire and disband

With the new proposal, most land will be abandoned and open for anyone. The nearest able enemy will be 20+ jumps away. Sure, they will form an anti-CFC roam once a week or so, just for the old times sake, but they won't have conflict of interest with the CFC. The CFC will be a bad historic enemy to them, like BoB is to Goons. Old MoA members will tell stories about the glorious days of fighting CFC to new ones, but for new ones CFC will be just another bunch of players 20 jumps away.


Wrong. In reality, MoA currently does not have a conflict of interest with CFC. This is simply because MoA does not have the organization, capability or competency to hold assets in space under current system. Therefore, they never make it an objective to hold assets or sov, as they know well that they will fail to realize any end involving holding control on assets or sovereignty.

MoA does not 'fight' CFC over resources or space. Actually, there is no instance of MoA being able to hold the field on any space engagement at all, so using the term that MoA 'fights' CFC is an overstatement. (They are so risk averse that the only instance they undocked capitals was when 5Z was cyno jammed and it was hellcamped. Even that day, they still managed to lose at least two capital ships to CFC frigates) Only thing MoA is able to do is to kill is ratters that do not pay attention. If they see a region of space that is more abundant with careless ratters that do not give a damn about ratting ship losses, they will move there since MoA only exists to shoot at targets (inattentive ratters) that cannot shoot back. This also explains why MoA has a persistent concern on killboard color, even as far as their directors yelling at line members to keep losses below a certain value. Since killboard color has jack all to do with power dynamics of sovereign null, MoA does not and cannot have a claim to holding control over anything.

By the way, 5Z is a NPC station, it does not belong to MoA. For instance, VFK outpost is ours. But 5Z station does not belong to MoA.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#536 - 2014-09-30 15:51:07 UTC
Gevlon Goblin wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
They don;t have to fight the CFC, that's a choice they've made. You're suggesting that choice is entirely because we happen to be nearby.

Indeed. Open Dotlan! Everything around their station is CFC land. They can't fight anyone else but CFC. Sure, they could move somewhere else, but somebody else already live there. If they move to NPC Fountain, they have to fight CFC. If they move to NPC Delve, they have to fight CFC. If they move Stain, they have to fight N3. If they move Great Wilderlands, they have to fight PL. Anywhere they move they have to fight someone competent who lives there. Their choices are:
- deciding which one of the big empires they fight
- or they can give up, crawl back to Empire and disband
Or they could rent. Or they could move to Provi where it's NRDS.

MoA aren't only fighting because they can't find anywhere safe to rat. Like seriously dude.

Gevlon Goblin wrote:
With the new proposal, most land will be abandoned and open for anyone. The nearest able enemy will be 20+ jumps away. Sure, they will form an anti-CFC roam once a week or so, just for the old times sake, but they won't have conflict of interest with the CFC. The CFC will be a bad historic enemy to them, like BoB is to Goons. Old MoA members will tell stories about the glorious days of fighting CFC to new ones, but for new ones CFC will be just another bunch of players 20 jumps away.
How do you know they will be 20 jumps away? And there would be even more NPC space they could move into, or they could even take their own sov. You realise that MoA hating CFC isn't because they happen to be nearby, right? It's an RP conflict they've chosen because we are a large enemy to fight. They want to fight people, and they will find people to fight wherever they go. They won;t suddenly start ratting just because people move around null a bit.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.

Rahelis
Doomheim
#537 - 2014-09-30 16:09:58 UTC
It is a shame that those noobs that broke the game now try to fix it - the jalta pic in mits post really fits into the grander landscape.


All those players should biomass their chars.


EVE needs fresh ideas and devs willing to approach new ways of gaming that provide content.


Not sov null version 2.0




baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#538 - 2014-09-30 16:11:02 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Gevlon Goblin wrote:

Where are these magical tens of thousands now? Why are they not fighting right now? Or you claim that highsec miners will take the abandoned space and will form deadly small gangs?


They are stuck outside of null sov because the current mechanics make it impossible for them to be able to do anything against us.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Veers Belvar
Swordmasters of New Eden
#539 - 2014-09-30 16:23:03 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
baltec1 wrote:
Gevlon Goblin wrote:

Where are these magical tens of thousands now? Why are they not fighting right now? Or you claim that highsec miners will take the abandoned space and will form deadly small gangs?


They are stuck outside of null sov because the current mechanics make it impossible for them to be able to do anything against us.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


Well, considering such Goon sponsored events as Burn Jita and Hulkageddon, and such Goon sponsored organizations as CODE and Miniluv, and the longstanding desire of Goons to cajole (or even force) players to leave highsec for nullsec, it's quite reasonable that those who oppose that agenda would make their voices heard, and critically analyze the proposed "solutions" for nullsec, with a specific focus on how they buff nullsec rewards, and serve as a relative nerf on highsec income, which will attract more players to nullsec.

It's not "grrr.... Goons," it's just common sense.
Regatto
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#540 - 2014-09-30 16:24:56 UTC
Alp Khan wrote:
This is simply because MoA does not have the organization, capability or competency to hold assets in space under current system.


Pretty much because every time they try they get blobbed by one unnamed 30k pilots big coalition Big smile which goes for any other alliance in this game, neither would any cfc alliance on it's own would be able to hold sov...except gsf probably. But this kind of discussion is off topic.


Im still more interested in idea about sov occupancy..."leaders of nullsec" did make their famous open letter but didn't really say how to implement it. I don't suppose system would belong to anyone who would rat there most right? Eve conquering should be still about shooting stuff, space being unoccupied should only make this somehow easier. Maybe change to how strategic upgrades work would be viable? Technically military/industrial upgrades work on that principal already.

Right now you need to hold system for several days/weeks to be able to instal cyno jammer/beacon etc. Relating this occupancy could make power projection harder since you couldn't have cyno beacons in systems you dont use...but then again I don't see how that can be done.

I still think sov needs to be way more vulnarable, and not only in unoccupied systems. Systems on daily use must be easier to take as well, otherwise invasions/sov wars won't get very encouraged.