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The Null Deal: A Statement from Sovereign Nullsec

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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#321 - 2014-09-29 16:00:57 UTC
umnikar wrote:


All good then. I trust goons to not take my new established sov...

Seriously. You must have some information I don't have, else all this makes no sense.


Occupancy sov changes several things.

First it makes it impossible for one power to own half of null.

Second it makes needing large fleets of several thousand redundant. The reason we use the massive fleets of today is because of the need to grind through huge amounts of EHP and defend against said huge fleets. This need goes away the second you get rid of the EHP grinds.

Lastly, Coalitions themselves would no longer be required to survive. It wont mean that they disband instantly but over time the rifts would get large enough that they will simply fall apart.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#322 - 2014-09-29 16:02:07 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


until you throw x+1 warm bodies at the system, and it becomes impossible to take, thus keeping us in the situation of having large coalitions except now you have to put them all under 1 alliance banner. instead of informal coalition banners.


You could only hold that which you use, at least 80% of our space would be impossible to hold onto.


but that's the point, you don't need to use it until some one contests it... then dogpile in to the system.

unless i'm missing something.


If we don't use it then it will simply drop to become unoccupied space.
PotatoOverdose
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#323 - 2014-09-29 16:02:16 UTC  |  Edited by: PotatoOverdose
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:

Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other?


Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null.

Hero entered null. Now being farmed alongside provi by N3PL. Truth is, anyone can enter null, even now. Most people just don't like being farm chattel.

So the same three choices will be present after your changes:
(1) I can stay in npc 0.0/lowsec/hisec and raid 0.0 to farm afk ishtars
(2) I can try and strike out on my own to be farmed for ~content~ by N3PL/CFC
(3) or I can get on the old SA account and become an "overman" alongside Retar thereby "winning" eve. Lol

That's totally not stagnation.
Retar Aveymone
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#324 - 2014-09-29 16:04:03 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:

Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other?


Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null.

Hero entered null. Now being farmed alongside provi by N3PL. Truth is, anyone can enter null, even now. Most people just don't like being farm chattel.

So the same three choices will be present after your changs:
(1) I can stay in npc 0.0/lowsec/hisec and raid 0.0 to farm afk ishtars
(2) I can try and strike out on my own to be farmed for ~content~ by N3PL/CFC
(3) or I can get on the old SA account and become an "overman" alongside Retar thereby "winning" eve. Lol

That's totally not stagnation.

hero is getting farmed mercilessly because it is literally the only contested region in the game
Dave Stark
#325 - 2014-09-29 16:05:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


until you throw x+1 warm bodies at the system, and it becomes impossible to take, thus keeping us in the situation of having large coalitions except now you have to put them all under 1 alliance banner. instead of informal coalition banners.


You could only hold that which you use, at least 80% of our space would be impossible to hold onto.


but that's the point, you don't need to use it until some one contests it... then dogpile in to the system.

unless i'm missing something.


If we don't use it then it will simply drop to become unoccupied space.


so you do the token amount to keep it. which will be a trivial amount, unless you don't want small entities to be able to hold sov....
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#326 - 2014-09-29 16:06:11 UTC
PotatoOverdose wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:

Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other?


Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null.

Hero entered null. Now being farmed alongside provi by N3PL. Truth is, anyone can enter null, even now. Most people just don't like being farm chattel.

So the same three choices will be present after your changes:
(1) I can stay in npc 0.0/lowsec/hisec and raid 0.0 to farm afk ishtars
(2) I can try and strike out on my own to be farmed for ~content~ by N3PL/CFC
(3) or I can get on the old SA account and become an "overman" alongside Retar thereby "winning" eve. Lol

That's totally not stagnation.


Feel free to come take CFC sov if you feel any can enter null under the current mechanics.
Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#327 - 2014-09-29 16:08:49 UTC
Regatto wrote:
Once this stops being exchange of arguments between moa and gsf, you could take in consideration that density isn't problem in null sec(number of anomalies is fine). Stagnation comes from boring and slow Sov capturing mechanics. More havens in system wont change absolutly anything

Except that currently 80% of systems are worthless crap that no one uses. As a result, in order to support a large number of players regions upon regions are required. Make that 80% worth using and alliances will naturally contract the area of space that is actually used. Throw in occupancy based sov, and you get entire regions that no one is using, regions that are **** easy for someone to take for themselves.

The two are inherantly linked; just changing one will not fix anything.
Heavypredator Singh
TEMPLAR.
The Initiative.
#328 - 2014-09-29 16:10:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Heavypredator Singh
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:

Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other?


Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null.

Hero entered null. Now being farmed alongside provi by N3PL. Truth is, anyone can enter null, even now. Most people just don't like being farm chattel.

So the same three choices will be present after your changes:
(1) I can stay in npc 0.0/lowsec/hisec and raid 0.0 to farm afk ishtars
(2) I can try and strike out on my own to be farmed for ~content~ by N3PL/CFC
(3) or I can get on the old SA account and become an "overman" alongside Retar thereby "winning" eve. Lol

That's totally not stagnation.


Feel free to come take CFC sov if you feel any can enter null under the current mechanics.


You just need 5000 ppl being in 1 system for few days - would be funny to watch ppl racing to login after downtime to the system :D Everyone knows the server limits - put enough ppl in and You win. But where do I buy 5000 slav... err ppl - need to talk to amarr empire.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#329 - 2014-09-29 16:11:51 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:


so you do the token amount to keep it. which will be a trivial amount, unless you don't want small entities to be able to hold sov....


It would take an alliance or large corp to hold that space. It just simply will not be possible for us to hold all of that space.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#330 - 2014-09-29 16:12:20 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Occupancy sov changes several things.

First it makes it impossible for one power to own half of null.

Second it makes needing large fleets of several thousand redundant. The reason we use the massive fleets of today is because of the need to grind through huge amounts of EHP and defend against said huge fleets. This need goes away the second you get rid of the EHP grinds.

Lastly, Coalitions themselves would no longer be required to survive. It wont mean that they disband instantly but over time the rifts would get large enough that they will simply fall apart.
How does that make sense?

Sure, it would be very difficult (though not impossible) for a coalition to own half of null, however it would be trivial to own key systems and crush anyone that tried to move into one of the empty gaps.

And while there would be less structure grind, there would still be POS grinds and POCO grinds, and most importantly the "Hellcamp your system until it becomes ours trololol", so there would be no benefit to splitting up the coalitions. Larger groups forming up to crush other larger groups will always be a problem, because "anything you can do, two can do better".

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#331 - 2014-09-29 16:12:45 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


until you throw x+1 warm bodies at the system, and it becomes impossible to take, thus keeping us in the situation of having large coalitions except now you have to put them all under 1 alliance banner. instead of informal coalition banners.


You could only hold that which you use, at least 80% of our space would be impossible to hold onto.


but that's the point, you don't need to use it until some one contests it... then dogpile in to the system.

unless i'm missing something.


Dogpiling one system would mean the others are wide open as long as the index decays fast enough.
Dave Stark
#332 - 2014-09-29 16:14:10 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


so you do the token amount to keep it. which will be a trivial amount, unless you don't want small entities to be able to hold sov....


It would take an alliance or large corp to hold that space. It just simply will not be possible for us to hold all of that space.


lol. yes it would. if a small entity can hold a system, a large entity can hold multiple systems just as easily.

as i said, if the minimum amount is easily obtainable for small entities you can do the "minimum" several times over to hold space you still won't use regularly. those systems will also always be tottering on the almost vulnerable side of things and essentially be a safari park much like people treat provi currently.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#333 - 2014-09-29 16:15:50 UTC
Heavypredator Singh wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
PotatoOverdose wrote:
Will the proponents of the change in this thread do me the kindness of answering a simple question:

Do you see a CFC or an N3PL reset in the immediate aftermath of these changes? If not, what changes in the meta? You still have two super entities that vastly overpower anything else and the only content consists of farming this guy. Once the novelty of the new system wears off, aren't we back to square one: a bipolar eve with two sides refusing to attack each other?


Both empires shrink massively allowing room for new alliances to enter null.

Hero entered null. Now being farmed alongside provi by N3PL. Truth is, anyone can enter null, even now. Most people just don't like being farm chattel.

So the same three choices will be present after your changes:
(1) I can stay in npc 0.0/lowsec/hisec and raid 0.0 to farm afk ishtars
(2) I can try and strike out on my own to be farmed for ~content~ by N3PL/CFC
(3) or I can get on the old SA account and become an "overman" alongside Retar thereby "winning" eve. Lol

That's totally not stagnation.


Feel free to come take CFC sov if you feel any can enter null under the current mechanics.


You just need 5000 ppl being in 1 system for few days - would be funny to watch ppl racing to login after downtime to the system :D Everyone knows the server limits - put enough ppl in and You win. But where do I buy 5000 slav... err ppl - need to talk to amarr empire.


Go ahead and PLEX 5k account to hold a system while they actaully use the space in other systems and effectively only need 100 active players per systems or so...
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#334 - 2014-09-29 16:16:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Just so people know where we started here. People forget the past, forget that we've made these mistakes in thinking before. So, have a look:

http://www.eveonline.com/expansions/dominion/

Quote:
Will your ambitious new Alliance rise up to the challenge and stake their claim, evolving territory to suit it's needs? Will your established empire hold fast against the fleets that press at your borders, hungry for the wealth you protect? Will you call old friends to your side and convince them to join you once more in battle? Or are you the clever entrepreneur who sits clear of the danger and fuels the war from the periphery?


http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/sovereignty-breaking-the-chains?_ga=1.246131140.1143573604.1412006868

Quote:
Sovereignty will no longer be tied directly to starbases.

This decision was an obvious one, as there is no one thing that causes more consternation amongst players than the seemingly endless task of shooting towers. Once the choice to do this was made, we then went ahead and pretty much scrapped the entire current system and started to build a new one from the ground up. Literally years of forum posts, player experience and feedback from the CSM contributed to what was a long, arduous process. What has emerged is a much leaner and infinitely more expandable system which we can continually evolve over time.


Reading this thread makes me want to watch Battlestar Galactica again, because this has all happened before, and it will happen again...

Edit: this was the funny part:

Quote:
I want to blow *%#$ up!

No matter what happens, there will always be important things to shoot. The key is finding a balance between allowing smaller gangs of raiders to disrupt the day to day operations of your space against requiring massive battleship and capital fleets to actually remove you from the same space. Conquest of space in Dominion will differ greatly from what exists currently, as will the ability of roaming gangs to cause an ‘AFK Empire' no end of frustration.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#335 - 2014-09-29 16:18:34 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Reading this thread makes me want to watch Battlestar Galactica again, because this has all happened before, and it will happen again...



So say we all.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#336 - 2014-09-29 16:19:25 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


so you do the token amount to keep it. which will be a trivial amount, unless you don't want small entities to be able to hold sov....


It would take an alliance or large corp to hold that space. It just simply will not be possible for us to hold all of that space.


lol. yes it would. if a small entity can hold a system, a large entity can hold multiple systems just as easily.

as i said, if the minimum amount is easily obtainable for small entities you can do the "minimum" several times over to hold space you still won't use regularly. those systems will also always be tottering on the almost vulnerable side of things and essentially be a safari park much like people treat provi currently.


Would you rather we keep the current zombie empires?

Nobody said living in null should be easy. That said it would simply be impossible to dogpile even a fraction of null systems outside of Dek.
Jenn aSide
Worthless Carebears
The Initiative.
#337 - 2014-09-29 16:20:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:

Reading this thread makes me want to watch Battlestar Galactica again, because this has all happened before, and it will happen again...



So say we all.


:) See my edit.
X Gallentius
Black Eagle1
#338 - 2014-09-29 16:21:25 UTC  |  Edited by: X Gallentius
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Except that currently 80% of systems are worthless crap that no one uses.

So why are they claimed by the major powers? No one is using them, right? Why bother with paying the sov fee?

Here are the "Elephant in the Room" questions that ought to be answered:
1. If these 0.0 systems are worthless, then why do the major powers still claim them?
2. If these 0.0 systems are worthless, then why are all the major powers rich beyond any measure wrt any other alliances in the game?
3. If inserting more non-sov 0.0 systems is the way forward, then why is there little or no pvp in the current non-sov 0.0 areas?
Dave Stark
#339 - 2014-09-29 16:22:17 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:


so you do the token amount to keep it. which will be a trivial amount, unless you don't want small entities to be able to hold sov....


It would take an alliance or large corp to hold that space. It just simply will not be possible for us to hold all of that space.


lol. yes it would. if a small entity can hold a system, a large entity can hold multiple systems just as easily.

as i said, if the minimum amount is easily obtainable for small entities you can do the "minimum" several times over to hold space you still won't use regularly. those systems will also always be tottering on the almost vulnerable side of things and essentially be a safari park much like people treat provi currently.


Would you rather we keep the current zombie empires?

Nobody said living in null should be easy. That said it would simply be impossible to dogpile even a fraction of null systems outside of Dek.


couldn't care less.

but saying this idea will force coalitions to downsize, there's literally 0 evidence to support that.
also if you can't dogpile everyone outside of the area where you're living, attacking forces will literally always be outnumbered and be trounced resulting in an equally stagnant and ****** system.

Sure you want sov changed, but changes that simply result in the same thing... pointless.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#340 - 2014-09-29 16:22:34 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Except that currently 80% of systems are worthless crap that no one uses.

So why are they claimed by the major powers? No one is using them, right? Why bother with paying the sov fee?


Because if/when they become worth using they can only support 10 at a time. We have tens of thousands of pilots.