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Module Tiericide. Aren't we losing something here?

First post
Author
Solecist Project
#141 - 2014-09-29 14:58:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Nevermind the most relevant part got snipped.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Bas Hauser
Roidcrackers
#142 - 2014-09-29 15:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bas Hauser
Quote:

Ship names don't need to be descriptive. Module names do.

'Raven' is fine, all that 'arbalest' and 'malkuth' junk isn't. CCP is doing a good thing here even if they should rethink some of the names ("High Capacity" instead of 'Ample' which makes everyone think of boobs).


Since when? Following your theory Raven is totally misleading, reminds me of something small, black and foul smelling while in EVE's reality it's big, steel blue and definitely doesnt smell bad. What's the difference between 'Raven' and 'Arbalest'?
I understand you are trying to protect your opinion but you should try harder....
Krell Kroenen
The Devil's Shadow
#143 - 2014-09-29 15:10:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Krell Kroenen
Bas Hauser wrote:
Quote:

Ship names don't need to be descriptive. Module names do.

'Raven' is fine, all that 'arbalest' and 'malkuth' junk isn't. CCP is doing a good thing here even if they should rethink some of the names ("High Capacity" instead of 'Ample' which makes everyone think of boobs).


Since when? Following your theory Raven is totally misleading, reminds me of something small, black and foul smelling while in EVE's reality it's big, steel blue and definitely doesnt smell bad. What's the difference between 'Raven' and 'Arbalest'?
I understand you are tring to protect your opinion but you should try harder....


I agree a little more effort is needed. I mean with out some clicking and reading a new player isn't going to know what a Raven is. So why shouldn't it be renamed to keep it nice and simple along with the modules? God forbid Eve might have a few barriers like clicking and reading to play the game.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#144 - 2014-09-29 15:12:23 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The above 2 comments are why some people mistake those of us who champion 'cautious progress' for people who don't want any change at all.

Point blank, the current 'names' are meaningless, misleading and needlessly complicated. I never support 'dumbing down' the game in the (false) name of 'help the children newbies.

But I do support 'de-stupidifying' it. Having names for items that exist only because someone thinks it sounds cool rather than it being practical and descriptive is stupid. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Ship Tiercide made this game better, module tiercide will as well. Don't like it, feel free to call the modules what you like. That's what I do, the came calls them "auto-targeting missiles", they are still FoFs to me...



Right, so you would prefer to drive a "Car, 4 door, 6 cylinder" or a "Scooter, one cylinder" instead of a BMW 528i or a Vespa Primavera. Got it. Boring as hell, understood.

Any naming convention that is not absolutely and solely descriptive is, technically, unnecessarily complicated. If you want to play at being a reductionist then go the rest of the way, don't half-step.

Also, as you are a proponent of a radical change it's not likely you're going to be mistaken for someone who wants no change at all.


Changing useless titles isn't a radical change. It's changing a useless title.

Items in a game should have names that actually mean something, so yea I'd rather have "Large Pulse Laser" rather than "Geodynamics Model XIV type3 subsection 345 Undulating Destructo Ray". Yea a lot of EVE module names are that stupid.

And no, personally I don't give a damn about flashy car names, a car is a thing that gets me back and forth to work or play, *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#145 - 2014-09-29 15:18:47 UTC
Krell Kroenen wrote:

I agree a little more effort is needed. I mean with out some clicking and reading a new player isn't going to know what a Raven is. So why shouldn't it be renamed to keep it nice and simple along with the modules? God forbid Eve might have a few barriers like clicking and reading to play the game.


I don't personally care what new players think. I'm not in favor of doing things "for the children" so to speak.

But EVE has needed to get rid of the dumb module names for a long time now. Half the time you can't tell whether a thing is a reactor control or a power diagnostic unit without having to do Ph.D level research. Same with things like co-processors and auto targeting units. And don't even get me started on the Signal Amps.
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2014-09-29 15:23:33 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
The above 2 comments are why some people mistake those of us who champion 'cautious progress' for people who don't want any change at all.

Point blank, the current 'names' are meaningless, misleading and needlessly complicated. I never support 'dumbing down' the game in the (false) name of 'help the children newbies.

But I do support 'de-stupidifying' it. Having names for items that exist only because someone thinks it sounds cool rather than it being practical and descriptive is stupid. *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

Ship Tiercide made this game better, module tiercide will as well. Don't like it, feel free to call the modules what you like. That's what I do, the came calls them "auto-targeting missiles", they are still FoFs to me...



Right, so you would prefer to drive a "Car, 4 door, 6 cylinder" or a "Scooter, one cylinder" instead of a BMW 528i or a Vespa Primavera. Got it. Boring as hell, understood.

Any naming convention that is not absolutely and solely descriptive is, technically, unnecessarily complicated. If you want to play at being a reductionist then go the rest of the way, don't half-step.

Also, as you are a proponent of a radical change it's not likely you're going to be mistaken for someone who wants no change at all.


Changing useless titles isn't a radical change. It's changing a useless title.

Items in a game should have names that actually mean something, so yea I'd rather have "Large Pulse Laser" rather than "Geodynamics Model XIV type3 subsection 345 Undulating Destructo Ray". Yea a lot of EVE module names are that stupid.

And no, personally I don't give a damn about flashy car names, a car is a thing that gets me back and forth to work or play, *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


Fair enough, so lose the ship names too Jenn. They are completely non-descriptive and in no way fit with your self-described preferences.

Based on your logic, and your now obvious disdain (pretty f'ing insulting, by the way) for anyone who thinks otherwise, there should be no items names (ships, being items, fall into this category) in the game that are not purely functionally descriptive. You've now said so yourself.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.

Bas Hauser
Roidcrackers
#147 - 2014-09-29 15:25:12 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

Changing useless titles isn't a radical change. It's changing a useless title.

Items in a game should have names that actually mean something, so yea I'd rather have "Large Pulse Laser" rather than "Geodynamics Model XIV type3 subsection 345 Undulating Destructo Ray". Yea a lot of EVE module names are that stupid.


I don't want your version of EVE where we have to forfeit names like Catalyzed Cold-Gas Arcjet Thrusters (we already did) or Arch Gistum Depredator (sooo cool) or Tachyon Beam Laser or insert your favorite name here. That EVE would be a boring and desolate place to be. Cry

Solecist Project
#148 - 2014-09-29 15:28:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Please don't forget about the horrible drones!

How can anyone expect people to remember what they are for when they
are called hobgoblins, for example?

What if a new player thinks it's a fantasy game?
Or will he expect a drone to be named spiderman,
will look for it and feel horrible disappointment?

Not to forget the completely misleading HammerHeads and Warriors!

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Kagura Nikon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2014-09-29 15:30:08 UTC
Ocih wrote:
The lore needs to be modified to support the lore.

An Amarr fleet is gimped when fighting Caldari fleets because they are seen as alliance members. A Gallente fleet is gimped against Minmatar (Gallente Exp resist) because they are allies. Yet each empire has a pirate faction and if the Gallente wanted to support the Minmatar in an operation to purge Angel Cartel it would be ritual suicide. Caldari supporting Amarr in an effort to purge Blood Raiders would have a similar effect.

As for true tiericide, I have little faith in the ability or willingness to do it.
Tachon Beam with Gleam T2 crystal
Heavy Pulse With Conflag

The Tachon are 40% more PG to fit, you lose 20% dps, you lose tracking and it's all for 2km of Optimal. (10%) That's the case for all 3 of the ranged weap/ ammo in the T2. They nerf stuff so hard it becomes garbage.

I'd have more faith in tiericide if there wasn't so much play style manipulation in the game. The example used was to stop 220km battleship fleets and it worked. The question is, why was there a need to stop them and why was it CCP's job to stop it?



That IS NOT the reason of the resistance profiles.

Resistance profiles are made to be strong agaisnt your ENEMY race. Amarr have VERY high explosive and high Kinetic resistance (minmatar primary and secondary damage types. Minmatar have very high EM and high Thermal.. guess what? Amarr primary and secondary damage types.

Same for the other 2.

"If brute force does not solve your problem....  then you are  surely not using enough!"

Sal Landry
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#150 - 2014-09-29 15:32:40 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Interesting. It never made *me* think of boobs,
which is quite telling.

Maybe there is something wrong with you, Jenn?

I mean, obviously there is something wrong with all the roleplayers,
including myself btw,
but what if it's not only them?


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/ample

adjective \ˈam-pəl\

: having or providing enough or more than enough of what is needed

: quite large

used to describe a person's (especially a woman's) body as being large in usually an attractive way

bold added by me
Solecist Project
#151 - 2014-09-29 15:34:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Solecist Project
Nevermind, I misread.

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia

Ocih
Space Mermaids
Somethin Awfull Forums
#152 - 2014-09-29 15:38:57 UTC
If CCP is determined to turn the meta module system in to a tree of one trick ponies, name them after the rigs and be done with it.

I still think we are wagging the dog in terms of name debates but you learn to stop trying to matter after a while.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#153 - 2014-09-29 15:57:07 UTC
I would like to pay homage to the bread and butter of any missile-spewer's arsenal:

  • Target Painter I
  • Partial Weapon Navigation
  • Peripheral Weapon Navigation Diameter
  • Parallel Weapon Navigation Transmitter
  • Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
  • Target Painter II


At present, as you work up through the T1-meta X ranks, the items gradually require less CPU & capacitor, while gaining optimal range, falloff, and signature radius bonus. They also become rarer, which means that there is a tradeoff between the power of an item and your ability to fund its acquisition.

When searching the market for "target painter" you will only find "Target Painter I", "Target Painter II" and the various storyline, deadspace and officer variants that have "target painter" in their name. When searching the assets window for "target painter" you will get all the modules that are in the class "target painter". Thus I would like to suggest that standardising naming for the sake of easier discovery in the market, is a furphy.

So while some misguided developer might think that the following list is perfectly fine and much easier for "new players", I disagree. This list is entirely devoid of fun:

  • Compact Target Painter
  • Enduring Target Painter
  • Scoped Target Painter
  • Restrained Target Painter


Sure, as part of tiericide it might be interesting to adjust the benefits of each target painter, such that the PWN has reduced fitting cost (i.e.: is more accessible to low-skill characters), the PWND has lower capacitor use (again, low skilled players), the PWNT gains longer range, while the PWNAGE gains signature radius bonus.

A much better aid to accessibility for new players is to improve the market search facility to return items whose group matches the search criteria. Thus "hybrid" will return rail guns and blasters, "target painter" will return all the PWNT and PWNAGE alongside Target Painters and hardwirings, modules or rigs that alter the performance of that electronic warfare system.

If the aim of the renaming process is to make items more discoverable, why not focus on better discovery tools rather than brute-forcing naming conventions to make things show up given the current discovery tools?

Just for giggles, here's an alternate view which combines both the "99% fun free naming lite" scheme and the "slightly obscure but funny" naming scheme of old:

  • Weapon Navigation I
  • Compact Partial Weapon Navigation
  • Enduring Peripheral Weapon Navigation Diameter
  • Scoped Parallel Weapon Navigation Transmitter
  • Restrained Phased Weapon Navigation Array Generation Extron
  • Weapon Navigation II


(with the two related skills becoming 'Weapon Navigation Endurance' and 'Weapon Navigation Restraint' LOL)

Because nothing builds on a joke like talking about "Restrained PWNAGE". But nothing kills the joke faster than:

  • Target Painter I
  • Compact 'PWN' Target Painter
  • Enduring 'PWND' Target Painter
  • Scoped 'PWNT' Target Painter
  • Restrained 'PWNAGE' Target Painter
  • Target Painter II


But that's just me.

Sorry for having basically the same rant twice in the one thread.
Zen Guerrilla
CTRL-Q
#154 - 2014-09-29 16:03:13 UTC
Seriously CCP.

It took me ******* ages to memorize all the different meta mods and their weird names.

Why should those filthy casuals who join eve now have it easier? CCP will probably make Highsec safe for caerbears next or something.

CCP your dumbing down eve! All the good guys went to Riot! CCP i want you to not change anything ever again because i am aqfraid others might have it easier then me.

THIS IS AN OUTERAGE!

pew pew

Remiel Pollard
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#155 - 2014-09-29 16:08:44 UTC
I have to say I like the idea of breaking down the meta modules and rebalancing them with unique specialities but...

The new naming conventions just seem a bit.... idk, not enough psshhh

Go back and do it all again.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#156 - 2014-09-29 17:12:15 UTC
Hiply Rustic wrote:


Fair enough, so lose the ship names too Jenn. They are completely non-descriptive and in no way fit with your self-described preferences.

Based on your logic, and your now obvious disdain (pretty f'ing insulting, by the way) for anyone who thinks otherwise, there should be no items names (ships, being items, fall into this category) in the game that are not purely functionally descriptive. You've now said so yourself.


On the internet, you know you are winning an argument when the opposing poster has to lie. I've explained why ships and modules are different (EVE is a spaceship game, not a module game, of course the ships will have cool sounding names).

This game doesn't never every rock and every pebble to have some futuristic sounding name. It's it's a Pulse laser, call it a pulse laser and be done. I think this is basically what CCP is doing, and I'm glad they are. Sorry is a thing making sense is 'boring' to you.
Bas Hauser
Roidcrackers
#157 - 2014-09-29 17:35:52 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:

EVE is a spaceship game


Ehhh. Understatement of the century...
Did you know there are things like industry, research, marketing? My gf back in 2005 was so obsessed with those things she havent left the station for weeks! Her best ships was a Velator! Based on the numbers it's a 'mods' game rather than a spaceship game, but frankly, it's neither.
For the rocks and pebbles, you are wrong or you missed the course on overview basics: there are things like Veldspar, Kernite, etc, and Strange Rock Formation too! Big smile Rename those as well, don't you think? Like Big Yellow Ore, Small Bluish Ore...
Again, try harder.

Medalyn Isis
Doomheim
#158 - 2014-09-29 17:37:58 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Please don't forget about the horrible drones!

How can anyone expect people to remember what they are for when they
are called hobgoblins, for example?

What if a new player thinks it's a fantasy game?
Or will he expect a drone to be named spiderman,
will look for it and feel horrible disappointment

Exactly. Can we just have the following drone naming convention.

Gallente Drone I
Restrained Gallente Drone I
Ample Gallente Drone I
Gallente Drone II

Amarr Drone I
Restrained Amarr Drone I
Ample Amarr Drone I
Amarr Drone II

.......

This would really take out a lot of the confusion with the current naming system, as right now it is difficult for a new player to work out which drone to choose with all the confusing names on offer.
Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2014-09-29 17:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
Jenn aSide wrote:
Hiply Rustic wrote:


Fair enough, so lose the ship names too Jenn. They are completely non-descriptive and in no way fit with your self-described preferences.

Based on your logic, and your now obvious disdain (pretty f'ing insulting, by the way) for anyone who thinks otherwise, there should be no items names (ships, being items, fall into this category) in the game that are not purely functionally descriptive. You've now said so yourself.


On the internet, you know you are winning an argument when the opposing poster has to lie. I've explained why ships and modules are different (EVE is a spaceship game, not a module game, of course the ships will have cool sounding names).

This game doesn't never every rock and every pebble to have some futuristic sounding name. It's it's a Pulse laser, call it a pulse laser and be done. I think this is basically what CCP is doing, and I'm glad they are. Sorry is a thing making sense is 'boring' to you.



No Jenn, you are not winning...at least not because someone is lying here, at least not me....if that's your criteria.

You've explained why, in your head, one item is different from another. Good for you. :)

You went right for the "no, I don't care about what vehicles are named" comment and went so far as to offer up a pretty insulting opinion of people who do. While a module is not a spaceship, a spaceship damn sure is a vehicle. You, not me, went completely reductionist on the subject and I simply used what you said.

You can keep moving the bar all you like. Me, I simply took what you said to a logical conclusion. I did not take it to an illogical extreme.

But hey, if it makes you good to feel like you're winning then by all means feel that way.


EVE is a lot more than a spaceship game; it's a merchant game, a manufacturing game, a political game, a con-artist game...so many more things than a spaceship game. Your view being as limited as it is may be what's clouding your judgement.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.

Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#160 - 2014-09-29 17:42:02 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Please don't forget about the horrible drones!

How can anyone expect people to remember what they are for when they
are called hobgoblins, for example?

What if a new player thinks it's a fantasy game?
Or will he expect a drone to be named spiderman,
will look for it and feel horrible disappointment

Exactly. Can we just have the following drone naming convention.

Gallente Drone I
Restrained Gallente Drone I
Ample Gallente Drone I
Gallente Drone II

Amarr Drone I
Restrained Amarr Drone I
Ample Amarr Drone I
Amarr Drone II

.......

This would really take out a lot of the confusion with the current naming system, as right now it is difficult for a new player to work out which drone to choose with all the confusing names on offer.



Are the restrained drones the ones in handfcuffs?

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.