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Module Tiericide. Aren't we losing something here?

First post
Author
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
#101 - 2014-09-28 02:01:43 UTC
The thing that fecks me off about all CCP balancing stuff is the completely idiotic treatment of veteran players.

We have spent years learning the nomenclature of modules, the stats of stuff, the strange 'Tech 2 is not always best', trained the niche skills to 5 just to fly something or use a POS gun.

Eve is a game of adapt of die, sure... But when changes are made that serve no purpose other than to make the game more 'accessible' to new players - at the expense of our learned knowledge, something is way off.

The balancing of ships worked initially because the changes generated new content, but it quickly settled into a new and actually more banal meta of PVP.
For example... Logi being the requirement even for crappy frigate brawls, Kite being far superior in every way to brawl, Tanks (especially active ones) being ridiculously boosted making solo pvp a totally boring tank vs tank vs oh its bait again scrub game. Risk is being eliminated, ISK costs are being ramped up, Battleships being way overpriced, stupidly slow, unable to track anything bar other battleships...

I guess the main point of my long grumbling post is this...

CCP are ruining this game with poorly conceived changes for 'new' players at the expense of 'old' players. I personally can't be bothered re-learning stuff when the changes are more likely to limit, restrict and marginalise more of spaceship PVP than they actually enable.

Change is fine and I'd embrace it if they actually introduced new stuff, added more variety for example and stopped doing things that seem like the rock, paper or scissors of our little game leaves us playing more rock, rock, rock.
Monica yolo
Monkeys in Suits
#102 - 2014-09-28 02:07:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Monica yolo
How about skills?

Shield Recharge
Shield HP
Armor HP
Structure HP
Gun Damage
More Gun Damage
Gun Rate of Fire
Gun Optimal Range
Gun Tracking Speed
Gun Accuracy Falloff
Drone Range
More Drone Range
Drone Velocity
Drone Optimal Range
Drone Damage
Drone HP

edit: dont forget to stop with roman numbers and use normal numbers huh?
Jennifer Maxwell
Crimson Serpent Syndicate
#103 - 2014-09-28 07:13:09 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
GamerChick42 has some interesting thoughts on this matter in her post, "The Consequences of 'Balance'": http://www.gamerchick.net/2014/09/the-consequences-of-balance.html


I'd agree with her opinions, for the most part.

I really do hope CCP listens to us about this. I don't want this to turn into some bloody simple thing.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#104 - 2014-09-28 07:29:31 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:

Change is fine and I'd embrace it if they actually introduced new stuff, added more variety for example and stopped doing things that seem like the rock, paper or scissors of our little game leaves us playing more rock, rock, rock.

Other than the small fact that the current meta is rock rock & more rock, since it's all about using Meta 4, or T2 in the cases where T2 > Meta 4.
All this talk about 'loosing variety' is BS. There is no variety currently, this has greater potential to create variety than the current system. The only area that could use some work is the naming conventions, and even that is a step forward

How many of you actually use 'propulsion inhibitor' in your actual speech or typing patterns. It's 'Meta 4 Web' or you drag the link from the market, but you don't type the name out anyway unless you are trying to help a corp mate or newbie find the meta 4 item on the market.
So the current name proposal far more reflects actual usage, rather than nostalgia on the part of bitter vets who had to walk uphill barefoot through the snow & broken glass in their day.
Dave Stark
#105 - 2014-09-28 07:43:08 UTC
Jennifer Maxwell wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
while the naming conventions currently, are interesting... they're also a pain in the ******* ass. if i want to fit a ship, i don't want to figure out what the named meta 4 module is, or if part of it's name has quote marks in it or not, etc.

while the new names are boring, they're less hassle. and i'd take less hassle over interesting any day of the week.

Maybe it's just me. Maybe I'm that quick on the uptake and amazingly intelligent. But to me, memorizing the items that I constantly use for pvp is really simple. Hell, memorizing all the modules I use is really simple. I even know the names of the modules that I don't use.


i didn't say it wasn't simple.

i just said it was a hassle.
Max Deveron
Deveron Shipyards and Technology
#106 - 2014-09-28 08:05:49 UTC
Who remembers Incarna? Who was at the Jita Riots or abroad?

The name changing.........the idea someone posted at one point early on about Dust514 and buying certain items of the market with AUR.

Who the heck says this might be heir future plan....get the cool higher better named stuff in the new NES store to be bought using real cash.

or who believes this isnt possible?????

Really I am against the name changes....I am even more against losing modules to this module tiercide....rebalance them, add some, tweak them whatever.....but holy christ WHY do we have to make this game like every other MMO out there....EvE is supposed to be harsh, gritty, REAL.....

with choices, knowledge from study not just having skills...........sure over time CCP you might force us to swallow this crap....but you will lose vets in the process especially the older crowd....the ones that have been making all your content that gets youi POSITIVE newslines.

-or- we could also have another RIOT...except more than jita....gank everything that moves every where....let nullsec invade highsec, block every trade hub....and just basically burn everything down.

but i dont see the second option occuring because your already losing your fan base....they are playing games like archeage, star citizen, novus aeterno....hell even i have been slowly enjoying STO more and more and chatting with others that barely log in here or have quit EvE because of tiercide crap. any way before this becomes even more of a rant on my part i'm out.
Scout Vyvorant
Doomheim
#107 - 2014-09-28 09:29:29 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Scout Vyvorant wrote:
Solecist Project wrote:
Scout ... while I love your idea ...

Who proofreads all this?


You mean the descriptions of the modules or my posts?

If you mean the modules' one, I guess after the submission of the descriptions, once the best is picked, there is going to be some proof reading before making it live, and even so didn't CCP itself made several typos every time they implemented some new description?

Typos are going to get fixed, and still I prefer to have a typo that's going to be fixed at the next downtime minipatch than having a sickening amount of modules with the same dull descriptions and names.
Yeah I'm talking about the tens of thousands of submissions by thousands of players.

The issue starts with "once the best is picked" already.
People need to be paid to read through all this stuff.

While I love your idea in theory ...
... the execution would be madness.


I decided to go to sleep, and see if the night bring any advice to the matter. And it did.

http://community.eveonline.com/community/volunteer-program/

EvE online has a volunteer division called Mercury, that should take care of the Lore and Fiction of EvE. Now I don't hear from them since long, I guess their last official post date back in 2008, but don't we let them handle the lore side of this tiercide? Actually, is Mercury still alive?

I for one I would love to dig myself into writing lore description of the new Tiericided modules, and I guess I wouldn't be alone in that.

I know that probably the descriptions for the small rail guns, at example, will look all alike, but still reading why Caldari corps developed such variations and why instead Gallentian ones developed the small blasters variations of the basic module is going to add that Sci-Fi touch that EvE risk to lose by streamlining the name of the modules.

I'm going to do the unprecedented, and wonder what would a CCP dev says about having the mercury team handling the Module Descriptions
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#108 - 2014-09-28 10:08:39 UTC
Monica yolo wrote:
How about skills?

Shield Recharge
Shield HP
Armor HP
Structure HP
Gun Damage
More Gun Damage
Gun Rate of Fire
Gun Optimal Range
Gun Tracking Speed
Gun Accuracy Falloff
Drone Range
More Drone Range
Drone Velocity
Drone Optimal Range
Drone Damage
Drone HP

edit: dont forget to stop with roman numbers and use normal numbers huh?


Sounds good to me.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#109 - 2014-09-28 10:14:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Harrison Tato
Falin Whalen wrote:
Nishachara wrote:
I feel passionate about the lore, and i know more than 5 people who like eve lore.

Your alts don't count. P


Yeah characters named Rancid McTurdbreath are far more immersion breaking than module names.
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#110 - 2014-09-28 12:45:42 UTC
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Eve is a game of adapt of die, sure... But when changes are made that serve no purpose other than to make the game more 'accessible' to new players - at the expense of our learned knowledge, something is way off.


And on the other hand, maintaining the appearance of complexity without any actual complexity is just silliness. Changes should be made to improve the game, and much like hull tiericice, modules need to be rebalanced so that there is much less clutter and redundancy. It isn't necessarily about complexity, or in EvE's case, pretending to be about complexity.

Playing EvE is like getting a college degree, you learn a lot of things that are only included to add to the opportunity cost of attending college, yet have negative zero to do with the actual degree.

Think of it as streamlining EvE, as opposed to dumbing it down. Because in actuality, once you pass a certain mental threshold, needless complexity is tedious, uninspiring, and ********. The only people who like such systems are the people who want to seem intellectual, but true intellectuals abhor such gamey systems.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Jace Sarice
#111 - 2014-09-28 12:53:28 UTC
Just throwing in that I also like the idea of corp-related names for modules. Beyond that, meh. I don't shoot things enough anymore to really have an opinion on any of this.
Bas Hauser
Roidcrackers
#112 - 2014-09-28 14:04:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Bas Hauser
Val'Dore wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Eve is a game of adapt of die, sure... But when changes are made that serve no purpose other than to make the game more 'accessible' to new players - at the expense of our learned knowledge, something is way off.


And on the other hand, maintaining the appearance of complexity without any actual complexity is just silliness. Changes should be made to improve the game, and much like hull tiericice, modules need to be rebalanced so that there is much less clutter and redundancy. It isn't necessarily about complexity, or in EvE's case, pretending to be about complexity.

Playing EvE is like getting a college degree, you learn a lot of things that are only included to add to the opportunity cost of attending college, yet have negative zero to do with the actual degree.

Think of it as streamlining EvE, as opposed to dumbing it down. Because in actuality, once you pass a certain mental threshold, needless complexity is tedious, uninspiring, and ********. The only people who like such systems are the people who want to seem intellectual, but true intellectuals abhor such gamey systems.


In your intellectual world a marksman would choose a 'good sniper rifle' a photographer a 'good cam' and a passionate driver a 'fast car'.

In my less intellectual and abhorred world a marksman would choose a 'Sig SSG 3000' a photographer a 'Nikon D7000' and a passionate driver a 'Dodge Challenger R/T'

'maintaining the appearance of complexity without any actual complexity is just silliness'
Really? In gaming? If you think that line holds true you shouldn't be playing anything. Ever.
Priscilla Project
Doomheim
#113 - 2014-09-28 14:57:22 UTC
Bas Hauser wrote:
In your intellectual world ...
It's only pseudo.
They're not really intelligent, else they'd realise that being cold and shallow isn't intelligent.

It is, literally, a blind spot.
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Val'Dore
PlanetCorp InterStellar
#114 - 2014-09-28 17:09:55 UTC
Bas Hauser wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Eve is a game of adapt of die, sure... But when changes are made that serve no purpose other than to make the game more 'accessible' to new players - at the expense of our learned knowledge, something is way off.


And on the other hand, maintaining the appearance of complexity without any actual complexity is just silliness. Changes should be made to improve the game, and much like hull tiericice, modules need to be rebalanced so that there is much less clutter and redundancy. It isn't necessarily about complexity, or in EvE's case, pretending to be about complexity.

Playing EvE is like getting a college degree, you learn a lot of things that are only included to add to the opportunity cost of attending college, yet have negative zero to do with the actual degree.

Think of it as streamlining EvE, as opposed to dumbing it down. Because in actuality, once you pass a certain mental threshold, needless complexity is tedious, uninspiring, and ********. The only people who like such systems are the people who want to seem intellectual, but true intellectuals abhor such gamey systems.


In your intellectual world a marksman would choose a 'good sniper rifle' a photographer a 'good cam' and a passionate driver a 'fast car'.

In my less intellectual and abhorred world a marksman would choose a 'Sig SSG 3000' a photographer a 'Nikon D7000' and a passionate driver a 'Dodge Challenger R/T'

'maintaining the appearance of complexity without any actual complexity is just silliness'
Really? In gaming? If you think that line holds true you shouldn't be playing anything. Ever.


Like I said, if there is an actual difference, go for it. But in EvE there are two kinds of modules, Better and Worse. There is no complexity, not even with the fittings curve ball. In EvE we don't currently choose between different modules in the way you seem to think we do. When you fit a target painter, there is only one you bother with, the rest are pointless. That isn't complexity, complexity would be having several viable choices and having to pick the best one for the fit. You aren't choosing anything, but please by all means, continue to believe you are.

Star Jump Drive A new way to traverse the galaxy.

I invented Tiericide

Hiply Rustic
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#115 - 2014-09-28 17:45:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiply Rustic
Ridiculous.

If someone can't be arsed to spend the trivial amount of time it takes to compare modules and decide which one best fits their skills and ship fitting capabilities, and needs the handholding of a purely technically descriptive "good/better/best" naming scheme then I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

It's not about "true intellectuals" this or "pseudo intellectuals that"...it's about maintaining or (here's a radical thought) even improving immersion. Because...it's a game.

Unless of course CCP has run out of space on the item database storage box and can't afford more disks...then ok, fine, reduce the number of items.

Ralph King-Griffin wrote: "Eve deliberately excludes the stupid and the weak willied." EvE: Only the strong-willied need apply.

Priscilla Project
Doomheim
#116 - 2014-09-28 17:49:16 UTC
I have posted my opinion in a really clear fashion there ...
... where it belongs.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=5060332#post5060332

  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Priscilla Project
Doomheim
#117 - 2014-09-28 17:50:28 UTC
Hiply Rustic wrote:
Ridiculous.

If someone can't be arsed to spend the trivial amount of time it takes to compare modules and decide which one best fits their skills and ship fitting capabilities, and needs the handholding of purely technically descriptive "good/better/best" naming scheme then I have no sympathy for them whatsoever.

It's not about "true intellectuals" this or "pseudo intellectuals that"...it's about maintaining or (here's a radical thought) even improving immersion. Because...it's a game.

Unless of course CCP has run out of space on the item database storage box and can't afford more disks...then ok, fine, reduce the number of items.

You nail it.


A noob and his muscle car.
(see my post in the actually relevant thread I've linked above)
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Glathull
Warlock Assassins
#118 - 2014-09-28 18:13:14 UTC
Real life is full of artificial complexity. You go to a grocery store and see 50 different brands of soap. They are all pretty much the same, and they are almost all made by the same company. Same goes for almost everything else in the store. 90% of everything in a Wal-Mart or a Target is made by one of 5 companies. There is no real complexity or difference. Just a bunch of different names and different packaging.

One of the reasons that EvE is interesting to me and really sucks me in is that it's got this quality of weird, pointless diversity. It helps make the universe a little more real.

Also, when I was a n00b starting out, I couldn't afford 'Arbalest', and I didn't have the skills for t2. I flew a magnificent Kestrel with 'Malkuth' launchers and promptly died in a fire.

Ample? Ample isn't for rocket launchers. Ample is for bosoms.

And WTF with the light missile launcher nerf?

"ZOMG!!! These light missiles I'm rocking are soooooooo friggin powerful! Effing win button is what LMLs are. Die space-pixels!!"
--said no one ever.

Anyway, yes. I feel like we are losing something: variety just for the sake of variety. I feel like this enforces stereotypes and limits the freedom to come up with really really stupidly bad fits.

I honestly feel like I just read fifty shades of dumb. --CCP Falcon

Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
#119 - 2014-09-28 18:42:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyktor Abyss
Val'Dore wrote:
Bas Hauser wrote:
Val'Dore wrote:
Vyktor Abyss wrote:
Eve is a game of adapt of die, sure... But when changes are made that serve no purpose other than to make the game more 'accessible' to new players - at the expense of our learned knowledge, something is way off.


And on the other hand, maintaining the appearance of complexity without any actual complexity is just silliness. Changes should be made to improve the game, and much like hull tiericice, modules need to be rebalanced so that there is much less clutter and redundancy. It isn't necessarily about complexity, or in EvE's case, pretending to be about complexity.

Playing EvE is like getting a college degree, you learn a lot of things that are only included to add to the opportunity cost of attending college, yet have negative zero to do with the actual degree.

Think of it as streamlining EvE, as opposed to dumbing it down. Because in actuality, once you pass a certain mental threshold, needless complexity is tedious, uninspiring, and ********. The only people who like such systems are the people who want to seem intellectual, but true intellectuals abhor such gamey systems.


In your intellectual world a marksman would choose a 'good sniper rifle' a photographer a 'good cam' and a passionate driver a 'fast car'.

In my less intellectual and abhorred world a marksman would choose a 'Sig SSG 3000' a photographer a 'Nikon D7000' and a passionate driver a 'Dodge Challenger R/T'

'maintaining the appearance of complexity without any actual complexity is just silliness'
Really? In gaming? If you think that line holds true you shouldn't be playing anything. Ever.


Like I said, if there is an actual difference, go for it. But in EvE there are two kinds of modules, Better and Worse. There is no complexity, not even with the fittings curve ball. In EvE we don't currently choose between different modules in the way you seem to think we do. When you fit a target painter, there is only one you bother with, the rest are pointless. That isn't complexity, complexity would be having several viable choices and having to pick the best one for the fit. You aren't choosing anything, but please by all means, continue to believe you are.


I was referring to more in general than just modules to be honest - things like skill requirements for Assault ships, Command ships etc being made easier to skill for, and my particular peeve - Battleships being pretty much nerfed / obsoleted because CCP wants everyone who is not a supercap pilot to fly newbie friendly frigates or T1 logi.

Do you remember Escrow? Do you remember buying cap recharger IIs from Escrow for 30m or actually having to do a cost/benefit asessment and fitting bartons or worse on your belt ratting thorax? Or how about being forced to use Named Webs and Warp Scrams/Disrupts that actually had different ranges and strengths that mattered or because of CPU? - A lot of 'new' players wont remember any of these real choices because CCP have pretty much made T2 as standard fit on everything....

I'm not arguing 30m for a T2 module is correct, but rather that the current "broken" tiers of modules were not always so broken. It is more that poor changes by CCP have obsoleted and ruined any choices that used to exist - particularly in fittings - Tiericide almost always dumped more CPU/Grid on every ship in order to make fits cookie-cut standard T2 replicas.

You can sperg all you want there being no real difference NOW, no argument here.... but trusting those CCP guys who actually stuffed up much of the balance by nullifying fitting choices in the first place to "fix" the redundancy is niaive.

They will simply remove a bunch of currently unused modules and rename the remaining stuff to Basic module I, Advanced module I and Module II - just because they can't be arsed MAKING interesting differences and choices in modules or because they are too afraid of players ability to be creative or losing control of the meta (cookie cutter fits) and enabling players to do stuff they can't think of with the tools they provide - The nano age, the nos nerf, drone bandwidth etc - all rebalanced and removing something different from the game every time... I'm not saying those nerfs were wrong, but hang on - flown a Vagabond recently? Isn't it just a Thorax/Maller/Close Range Brawler I ?

For example I'm half expecting them to just full on remove all COSMOS modules from game rather than attempt to make a viable choice out of them.

They are "streamlining" all over the place - like removing Data Interfaces from invention, just because they can't be bothered to follow up improve upon or add any more functioning complexity. Things like that actually require effort and time spent improving their product - much easier to simply chop bits out of the code and call it "streamlining for accessibility".

I could grumble on and on, but I suspect you all just read "bittervet" anyway and would rather I left the game too. In actuality I have had lots of fun over the 9 years now playing Eve - I have a long term perspective on the game and believe in general it has gotten better over that time - I also hope in future to keep playing this game and that CCP can rekindle some excitement for the future of this game because it has always had masses of 'potential'.
Ot is just newer players cant relate to the fact that eve development and "expansion" has almost stopped. the development has stagnated and - Tiericide - is a lot of minor changes for very little real gameplay improvements - it is more like a plumber unclogging your toilet calling it a "fix" but pushing the problem to your outside drain further downstream. How long have they been doing expansions that are simply rebalancing?

The whole net result is the Eve stink gets worse... with no freshening 'content' to near that potential. Newbies welcome to the dungheap.

Yes I did get bitter in the end.
NEONOVUS
Mindstar Technology
Goonswarm Federation
#120 - 2014-09-28 21:10:43 UTC
Reduce everything to base forms then build up
This is a good way to fix any complex system
However we shall see if CCP can match Valve and make it to 2
Even less likely they shall best them and count to 3

Oh well, knew it was coming
Rah rah EVE is dead, unsubscribing all my 2 accounts

Why is that even a viable threat?
I need EVE, its my social life!