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Why EvE subscription is low (A newbro perspective)
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Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2014-09-26 15:28:39 UTC
Priscilla Project wrote:

I was being serious, but not addressing you.

These people really exist and I'm not even the only one who calls them griefers.

On my occasional journeys through rookiecorps I saw this happening every time ...
... anx had lots of talks with people who really thought they HAVE to mine or run missions.

Which bored lots of them to death ... and they really thought that was what the game was about!
And THAT is really bad....


What is your srp for rookies? Where do you advertise your rookie program? Sandbox goes both ways.

Nagging that people choose missions and mining as the easiest and least skill intensive way of obtaining moneyz is easy.
Ra' zutao
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2014-09-26 15:40:31 UTC
I raw Dogged it in Eve until my loins hurt... they still hurt but I finally found the lube to make it a pleasurable experience..

Don't be afraid to ask questions. you got esploded by some dude message him and ask what ya did wrong.. Most experienced players will be willing to tell you what you did etc.. sometimes its nothing you were just out classed.

some will laugh in your face and defecate on your corpse.. thats just part of the joys :D


LOL
Ashlar Maidstone
MoonFyre BattleGroup Holdings
#163 - 2014-09-26 18:48:26 UTC
Pilot Hanz, after checking your profile and as others have said, 20 days isn't even enough for you to make any kind of worth while opinions such as this, and as such I think it's best you kept it to yourself for at least a year or two. And THEN you can write about what you think is wrong after hanging around for the next year or so.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#164 - 2014-09-26 18:52:59 UTC
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:
Pilot Hanz, after checking your profile and as others have said, 20 days isn't even enough for you to make any kind of worth while opinions such as this, and as such I think it's best you kept it to yourself for at least a year or two. And THEN you can write about what you think is wrong after hanging around for the next year or so.
Yes, wait until you are one of the players that didn't quit before you try to explain why you think people quit. Makes a lot of sense.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Mara Pahrdi
The Order of Anoyia
#165 - 2014-09-26 19:23:35 UTC
Hanz Hrible wrote:
I've joined a very good, new player friendly corp that I'm enjoying quite well- but again the problem points to "knowing where to look". This isn't about me and my frustrations.

Knowing where to look, knowing what to watch out for is part of the learning experience basically everywhere. Nobody is going to do your homework for you, though some people are willing to share their knowledge. Your task is to find those people.

Remove standings and insurance.
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#166 - 2014-09-26 19:24:46 UTC
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:
Pilot Hanz, after checking your profile and as others have said, 20 days isn't even enough for you to make any kind of worth while opinions such as this, and as such I think it's best you kept it to yourself for at least a year or two. And THEN you can write about what you think is wrong after hanging around for the next year or so.


Again, if people can't decide if they like a game in that timeframe they are unlikely to continue paying for it and find something they are sure they like.

Ironically, the Devs have already explained that they made Eve the way it is (harsh with a steep learning curve like the OP described) and there are 9 pages of 'arguements' already. Really does speak worlds about the 'community'.


"When I first got to prison and was raped in the ass repeatedly, I didn't like it. But after a while I started to observe the rapists. I watched where they hid, what kind of shanks they used, their interactions with the guards. In less than 5 months I was able to **** someone else, and then I knew I was hooked."

Welcome to Cellblock E(ve).

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Prince Kobol
#167 - 2014-09-26 19:27:07 UTC
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:
Pilot Hanz, after checking your profile and as others have said, 20 days isn't even enough for you to make any kind of worth while opinions such as this, and as such I think it's best you kept it to yourself for at least a year or two. And THEN you can write about what you think is wrong after hanging around for the next year or so.



Your missing the point. The most important period of time for a new player is the first few weeks, you can say this for any game not just Eve.

Very few people will give a game a few months let alone a year to see if they like it.

I would love to see the results of the player exit surveys of the last 12 months, would be a fantastic insight. I wonder if any of the CSM have seen them?
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#168 - 2014-09-26 19:33:26 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Yes, wait until you are one of the players that didn't quit before you try to explain why you think people quit. Makes a lot of sense.
That is exactly what this thread is. OP has already said he's not going to quit.

Witty Image - Stream

Not Liking this post hurts my RL feelings and will be considered harassment
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting
#169 - 2014-09-26 19:55:08 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
If you know where to looks
Newbies don't know where to look. They are newbies. Most EVE players have no interest in telling newbies where to look, only in laughing at them because they did it wrong, asking for their stuff when they leave, and trolling them for the same.

The old "if you can't use your brain you can't play eve snarf snarf" stuff that get's spouted all the time is complete nonsense. At some point you have to look at the system and ask yourself if it's really working well enough. If so many people have trouble gaining traction in EVE, it seems to me the likely problem is EVE, not the players.


In my experience newbro's are better off if they realize early that they are going to get ganked, podded, slaughtered, blapped, and then some purely because they are newbros. It is up to them and their corp leaderhip to empower them, wisen them up, so they have more control over their losses and an ISK faucet to stop worrying about it that much.

You can say about my crummy casual corp what you will, but newbros can make ISK in and kills in our corp while they seem to fail and resort to forum complains in "hisec carebear corps". I blame this entirely on the positive culture we try to harbour: you are allowed to lose ships in our corp. In fact, your lossrate is idicative of your resolve, not your win-rate. Sure, nice kills get applause, but losing fights and participating in fleets make you better at PVP. I dont give a **** about our corp killboard because we are not trying to impress anyone: all we care for is participation and net results. The latter is not a factor for newbro's, post-pvp evaluation and our video documentaries however, are.

I dunno. I enjoy the fact gaining traction isn't easy, but entirely available from day 1 if you just open your mouth. I have too many prime examples of inquisitive newbros that turned out to be decent PVPers to blame the mechanics. I also experienced you can gain traction mechanically only up to a certain point, the rest is pure social skils. I could have been 100x as rich and have 100x more kills if I simply sold out to a bloc and attended the blue donut. Instead I choose red survivalism and newbro empowerment as my endgame. In order to be told where to look for the "join corp" option, all you'd need is a positive attitude if any of my corpmates shoots your ship in lowsec. All you need to to for that to happen is jump that gate...
Vyl Vit
#170 - 2014-09-26 19:57:41 UTC
Hanz Hrible wrote:
I'm not sure your post was very helpful, "find another game" is easy. But actually sitting down and working out how to help truly new players deal with many of the game's pitfalls that they will inevitably fall into obviously requires critical thinking- and well, that just takes too much work.
Well, gee. I'm sorry you feel that way. I've never met an EVE player that wasn't willing to be helpful whenever possible. Maybe your idea of "too much work" might change over time.

Not that you'd intentionally overlook the point I was making, now, would you? I thought not.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Colten Tokila
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#171 - 2014-09-26 20:18:57 UTC
I will say it again, Eve has a poison community that will eventually kill it. It is full of people who have put in too much time and attention for them to ever consider change or understand new players. The community is full of people who say "having trouble? LEAVE" or devolving senselessly into personal attack that the new fangled kids today are entitled for feeling that they should be having fun before a year of playing.

The irony is that the axiom "Adapt or Die" is what Eve is currently struggling with. New generations, and old generations are changing in taste and have less time. Eve can cater to its diehards and bleed to death; or it can change and bring in new blood. Each choice is perilous, and know one can truly know what would be best. We will just have to see as the years go by.

My prediction is change will be slow going, but will drive off older players. New players wont be catered to enough or too much and will leave. Eve will just limp along years from now with a smaller population that has grown even more toxic due to concentration.
Prince Kobol
#172 - 2014-09-26 20:20:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Vyl Vit wrote:
Hanz Hrible wrote:
I'm not sure your post was very helpful, "find another game" is easy. But actually sitting down and working out how to help truly new players deal with many of the game's pitfalls that they will inevitably fall into obviously requires critical thinking- and well, that just takes too much work.
Well, gee. I'm sorry you feel that way. I've never met an EVE player that wasn't willing to be helpful whenever possible. Maybe your idea of "too much work" might change over time.

Not that you'd intentionally overlook the point I was making, now, would you? I thought not.



There are some great Eve players out there, there are also some total and utter *****

The thing is I do not know of any developer that relies so much on its community for things which most gamers take for granted from their developers.

Yes its great that CCP has such a great level of interaction with us and I would never want that to change, I applaud them for it, but on the other hand hand new players shouldn't have to rely on forums and player written guides to the extent that they do with Eve.

The NPE does an okay job of covering the basic mechanics of the game but it does not go anywhere near enough to explain and show what Eve is all about and what to expect.

If CCP wants to continue down this path of letting us the players do most of the work for them then they have to at least consider having official player corps for new players.

Guys like Eve Uni, RvB, Brave, Goons (or other entities in CFC), Fweddit, etc..

If you visit the Evelopedia they list 46 Educational Organisation which and I quote "dedicate themselves to helping new players start their careers in EVE"


1 0.0 Axis Fleet & Stealth Syndicate
2 Academia Hispana de Pilotos (Spanish speaking only)
3 Agony Unleashed
4 The Angel Project
5 Black Sun Brethren
6 Blood And Sand (Italian only)
7 Burning Sun Empire
8 Brave Collective
9 The Brotherhood Of New Eden
10 Carthage Empires
11 Center for Advanced Espionage
12 Cha Ching LtD (german speaking / deutschsprachig)
13 Delta Project
14 Delta Academy (Italian only)
15 Delta Fight Club (Italian only)
16 DoubleDutchClan
17 Enlightened Academy
18 EVE Flight School (Russian only)
19 EVE University
20 Firesworn Nation
21 Flying Dangerous
22 Fweddit
23 Goonswarm Federation
24 Insurgent New Eden Tribe Academy (Italian only)
25 Legion Of Patriots
26 Noir. Academy
27 Occultum Associates
28 Open University of Celestial Hardship
29 Pax Emunio
30 Pro Synergy (Dedicated Salvaging Corporation)
31 Project Halibut
32 PWNED Factor
33 Rangers of the One
34 Red Frog Freight
35 Red Versus Blue (RvB)
36 REFORD (Ukrainians only)
37 Revolutionary Front
38 The Righteous Indignation AKA GUNKY
39 Scorpion Tail Mercenary Group [STMG]
40 Smiling Friends Social Club & Hearts And Minds Alliance
41 Solarise Flares
42 Srs Bzns Podcast
43 Test Alliance Please Ignore
44 Thee Almitee Ones
45 Unseen Academy (Polish only)
46 World Domination Inc

I would love to know how many people are even aware this pages exists and how many of the above organisations still exist. If what I expect is true and many do not then it is of no help to new players.

I doubt it would be that difficult for CCP to lay a few ground rules for any corp or alliance that wishes to be an Official CCP New Player Corp.

I suspect m,any people will stay if they first corps they joined were RvB, Eve Uni, Brave etc..
True Sight
Deep Freeze Industries
#173 - 2014-09-26 23:30:17 UTC
I'll bite...

Hanz Hrible wrote:
A new player wanting to explore, trade, or mine is highsec is completely free to do so- But beware joining a player corp- because you'll likely get war dec'd by a corp such as the Marmite Collective and you'll be shut down financially unless your corp pays them for surrender. So be prepared to hire a freight company to move your stuff for you.


This really doesn't happen as much as you think or some people are just really good at making themselves look like stupidly easy targets, you could, for example join eve university/

Hanz Hrible wrote:
A new player may join a powerful nullsec alliance and have Sov space to play in- But don't go exploring, because you'll be locked down by a warp disruption bubble by a player that has a 20million SP on you and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.


20m SP above you makes no difference what so ever, I have over 140m sp and within a few pvp focused million SP later, you can be as good at getting away from any way I could tackle and kill you as a 200m sp character.

Hanz Hrible wrote:
A new player is free to make isk through faction warfare- But that new player likely won't have the DPS for the faction spawns on the complexes- and again, if another player shows up, don't expect a fair fight, because that player will not be a fellow newbro and the fight will be anything but balanced.


See my previous answer, really, you can be as effective at pvp with 5m sp as a guy with 100+, sure, you have to focus your training, but if having more SP didn't give people any advantage, then people wouldn't feel like they've accomplished as much over the long-term, which, if as a 'newbro' you liked the game and decided to stay, you'd like the long-term payout too.

Hanz Hrible wrote:
I really enjoy how deep and immersive the game is, with so many options- I do, but the way this game seems to be played is "hide in the shadows until you think you can sucker punch a newbro, and run away if anything else shows up"


Then you're doing it wrong. Go join the Brave collective, learn to pvp like that.

Hanz Hrible wrote:
I don't fly ships I can't afford, I'm not quitting the game, and I don't have isk problems- I'm having fun doing what I do, but it just seems like I'm limited to running with fleets in nullsec since I have no way to defend myself from rudes that have been playing the game for years and enjoy picking on people who've barely started.


see all my above answers.
Doc Fury
Furious Enterprises
#174 - 2014-09-26 23:44:08 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:

"When I first got to prison and was raped in the ass repeatedly, I didn't like it. But after a while I started to observe the rapists. I watched where they hid, what kind of shanks they used, their interactions with the guards. In less than 5 months I was able to **** someone else, and then I knew I was hooked."Welcome to Cellblock E(ve).


None of you seem to understand.
I'm not locked in here with you... you're locked in here with me.

☼

There's a million angry citizens looking down their tubes..at me.
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#175 - 2014-09-27 00:05:13 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:
Pilot Hanz, after checking your profile and as others have said, 20 days isn't even enough for you to make any kind of worth while opinions such as this, and as such I think it's best you kept it to yourself for at least a year or two. And THEN you can write about what you think is wrong after hanging around for the next year or so.
Yes, wait until you are one of the players that didn't quit before you try to explain why you think people quit. Makes a lot of sense.


Yes it actually does.
Sykaotic
Doomheim
#176 - 2014-09-27 06:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sykaotic
@ OP

Do not feel alone my brother.

You are much needed in this game as the more skilled pilots that prey on new members would themselves quit before doing PvP with others of their skill lvl.

There are many flavors of Eve players, that includes new players and the cowards that harrass them instead of going up against a more substantial opponet.

These cowards, are akin to the players who beg for gold in WoW. They are at the bottom of the pond scum layer.

Now, good intent is meant by those who refer you to joining a "good corp"..... but in my experience, of trying many corps, the problem is you will find most of them do not have many members logged in and all to often you are alone, and thus back to square one.

Your best bet is to skill up, then either be a scum bag who preys on new bros, or go solo in low or 0.0.

Funny how often this subject is brought up and flamed to hell by most... while the subs keep going down. They are content to prey on you all the way to 0 subs.

For the record, I have played off and on for 5 years.... and my biggest beef is the lack of "good corps" who are extremely active.

o7 Good Luck
Kousaka Otsu Shigure
#177 - 2014-09-27 06:34:27 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Ashlar Maidstone wrote:
Pilot Hanz, after checking your profile and as others have said, 20 days isn't even enough for you to make any kind of worth while opinions such as this, and as such I think it's best you kept it to yourself for at least a year or two. And THEN you can write about what you think is wrong after hanging around for the next year or so.



Your missing the point. The most important period of time for a new player is the first few weeks, you can say this for any game not just Eve.

Very few people will give a game a few months let alone a year to see if they like it.

I would love to see the results of the player exit surveys of the last 12 months, would be a fantastic insight. I wonder if any of the CSM have seen them?


The point is, if you haven't at least spent half the time as longtime players did into the game, the OP is quite unfair for us that DID try to understand what the EvE gameplay hulabaloo is about. Why do we gank miners, why miners fly the said gankable ship, why nullsec wants compressed ores, why do hisec wardec corps do what they do, why do FW players dote on levelling skills to V for just another 2% increase, etc... try to understand their concerns, try to be part of another set of people/join another community, and maybe then you get to form a more learned opinion.

For the OP, I give you this thread to read and maybe derive some inspiration from:
The Avenging Angels-The Story of Amarrian Vengeance

Maybe the problem here is what the player was 'promised' in the OP:
Quote:
..."hide in the shadows until you think you can sucker punch a newbro, and run away if anything else shows up"...
...But beware joining a player corp- because you'll likely get war dec'd by a corp such as the Marmite Collective and you'll be shut down financially unless your corp pays them for surrender. So be prepared to hire a freight company to move your stuff for you...
....But that new player likely won't have the DPS for the faction spawns on the complexes- and again, if another player shows up, don't expect a fair fight, because that player will not be a fellow newbro and the fight will be anything but balanced...
....but it just seems like I'm limited to running with fleets in nullsec since I have no way to defend myself from rudes that have been playing the game for years and enjoy picking on people who've barely started.

That and this part of the community:
Quote:

....No, not all players have this mindset, but there appears to be a very outspoken few who simply, don't care- and go further to gloat at the discomfort of new players....
....SEE! That's it, right there "Most cases is just an alt" That digs at the heart of my concern- old players are making alts faster than new players are subscribing... Is that not seen as an issue?
....I was slightly annoyed however that a player that had been playing for 5 years had nothing better to do than to chase me 6 jumps to take me out.

For the first part, you are the one in command in the fun department. My idea of fun when I started was trying to destroy all the ships in a certain lvl3 mission in less than 3 hours. choosing the right destroyer (and then cruiser) to mine asteroids (its the Coercer then Augoror in my case). challenging myself to destroy some gosh-darned tough-as-nuts NPC cruisers.. You set the goals, not others.

For the second part, almost all (competitive) MMOs I've tried have their forum warriors, alt armies/spies, lowbie griefers, unfair battles.. to which CCP beseech thee: HTFU. Empower yourself, be in command, you have the tools for the job so please use them.

You can play with others that dont have your best intentions in mind, can you?

Archiver, Software Developer and Data Slave

Current Project Status: What can I make with these minerals?