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Why EvE subscription is low (A newbro perspective)
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R3DRUM
Playboy Enterprises
Dark Taboo
#61 - 2014-09-25 13:54:21 UTC
Hanz Hrible wrote:
It's not the game's fault- and it's not CCPs fault- The base of my frustration is with the cold playerbase- as I've observed in this thread alone- people just don't care about the experience a new player has- They don't care if they just blapped a person who was bright eyed and new to the game in their very first T1 destroyer that took them a week to save the 1 million isk to save for, they don't care if new players are having fun- No, not all players have this mindset, but there appears to be a very outspoken few who simply, don't care- and go further to gloat at the discomfort of new players.

YES I truly am a very new and very fresh player, under 1.5million SP- The reason I know about the things I've been writing about? Because A) The first corp I joined got war dec'd by Marmite and I wasn't left with any explination- so I had to google it for myself.. and B) I'm in prominent Sov Space alliance now with their own wikis and guides along with specialized new player training.
Marmite a big group of no skilled losers anyways. they are laughable. u can find a nice place to run missions and watch local and dscan for combat probes and warp and dock if they come n local hell
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#62 - 2014-09-25 13:55:20 UTC
People are asshats. Plain and simple. It's innate to us.

We, like every other creature on the planet, pick on the weak and hide from the strong. New players are the weakest and need to do the most hiding. It sucks, but deal with it it. Leave or become stronger. No one is going to hand you anything.

You can't change an ingrained genetic programing to grief. A lot of games have tried and they've all failed.

As for the trial, 21 days is plenty of time to decide if you can hack it or not.

Does the game suck for new player retention? Sure. Does it need a complete rethink of the NPE? Absolutely. But even with massive improvements, it's far beyond CCP to change human nature. No matter what the rules, the clever and strong will dominate the entitled and weak.

Mr Epeen Cool
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#63 - 2014-09-25 13:55:29 UTC
Boohoo, call your mummy next time somebody touches your pixels.

Every newbie has part of forums where they are safe to ask even most basic questions about stuff that is obvious to everybody else. And whole rest of forums to read. Add blogs, youtube and you have knowledge acquisition part done.

As for ganking, trolling and scamming last time I checked label said "cold, harsh universe" so WTF did you expect to find here, gummi bears and lollipops?

Invalid signature format
Priscilla Project
Doomheim
#64 - 2014-09-25 13:57:30 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Thanks for making Lucas's point.

I skipped the NPE both tries I tried Eve. The only reason I stuck around after the second attempt was because I got lucky and found a corp with some really good guys.

I'm not making anyones point.
At least not intentionally.

I've spent two weeks reading about gamemechanics before I even started the trial.

Am I an exception? Hell yeah, it really seems so... but so what?

Everyone can do the same ... people just don't!

Is that the game's fault? Hell no!
  • All incoming connection attempts are being blocked. If you want to speak to me you will find me either in Hek local, you can create a contract or make a thread about it in General Discussions. I will call you back. -
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#65 - 2014-09-25 13:57:58 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
The old "if you can't use your brain you can't play eve snarf snarf" stuff that get's spouted all the time is complete nonsense. At some point you have to look at the system and ask yourself if it's really working well enough. If so many people have trouble gaining traction in EVE, it seems to me the likely problem is EVE, not the players.
"A game is broken if it's hard". Bollocks.

Prince Kobol wrote:
Eve is probably one of the most complex MMO's on the market.. heck ever released, of course new players to the game are going to find life difficult when first starting out.

Like Lucas has said, if so many people who try Eve find life difficult to begin with then perhaps the problem is with Eve.
Well, you just said EVE is hard so people are inevitably going to find it hard, and then said it's a problem with EVE that people find it so hard. Which is it?

Hanz Hrible wrote:
The base of my frustration is with the cold playerbase- as I've observed in this thread alone- people just don't care about the experience a new player has- They don't care if they just blapped a person who was bright eyed and new to the game in their very first T1 destroyer that took them a week to save the 1 million isk to save for, they don't care if new players are having fun
Why should they? Who the hell are you that older players should stop what they were doing to hold your hand - not that there aren't plenty of players out there who do exactly that.

As it happens, I actually did get blapped in my first T1 destroyer that it took me a week to save for, by a much older player, and it was reacting to that loss that pretty much taught me how to play EVE.

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embrel
BamBam Inc.
#66 - 2014-09-25 14:01:21 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Hanz Hrible wrote:
Kousaka Otsu Shigure wrote:
Sorry but a month into the game will give you a really superficial insight of what eve is. So your OP is kinda not fair for the rest of us.

Try to give it at least a year.




But that's the issue, at most a player can only get 21 days before deciding to sub or not, and it's extremely difficult for a new player to circumvent those issues in that time- they get frustrated.. they leave.


It isn't.

If you know where to looks. Plenty of GOOD new player friendly corps around, plenty of new player friendly community channels around that can help you.




If you know how, most things are easy. Issue with newbs is, they don't know how.
Hanz Hrible
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#67 - 2014-09-25 14:04:53 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:

Hanz Hrible wrote:
The base of my frustration is with the cold playerbase- as I've observed in this thread alone- people just don't care about the experience a new player has- They don't care if they just blapped a person who was bright eyed and new to the game in their very first T1 destroyer that took them a week to save the 1 million isk to save for, they don't care if new players are having fun
Why should they? Who the hell are you that older players should stop what they were doing to hold your hand - not that there aren't plenty of players out there who do exactly that.

As it happens, I actually did get blapped in my first T1 destroyer that it took me a week to save for, by a much older player, and it was reacting to that loss that pretty much taught me how to play EVE.


No where in my entire post have I asked for any one to give any one any thing.. Stop being so bitter.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#68 - 2014-09-25 14:05:42 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Jenn aSide wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
If you know where to looks
Newbies don't know where to look. They are newbies. Most EVE players have no interest in telling newbies where to look, only in laughing at them because they did it wrong, asking for their stuff when they leave, and trolling them for the same.

The old "if you can't use your brain you can't play eve snarf snarf" stuff that get's spouted all the time is complete nonsense. At some point you have to look at the system and ask yourself if it's really working well enough. If so many people have trouble gaining traction in EVE, it seems to me the likely problem is EVE, not the players.


Not at all, you're looking at it backwards. The fact that EVE gives so many people 'trouble' is a sign of it working well because the experience is then more valuable to the relative few that can figure things out.

McDonalds has more customers and makes WAY more money than the company that owns Spago, that doesn't make McDonalds food better. And it's not all about money either, even for companies, if it was, Spago would have a Dollar Menu.

Some people (*surreptitiously looks at Lucas Kell*) think EVE should be like McDonalds (catering to everyone in fine lowest common denominator fashion), I think many of us appreciate that it is indeed Spago and thus isn't for everyone (because you're poor and need that Dollar menu).



Damn right Eve should not be for everybody to be honest it is an impossible job anyway, however what what we should not do is say **** back to WoW because somebody is having new is having difficulty understanding the game.



Right, And no one is saying that. But at a certain point, a person has to have at least SOME thinking abilities to play EVE, and some will to overcome challenges. I will never understand the folks like Lucas who seem to WANT to play with legions of gamers who can't be bother to figure out something as simple as EVE

At the end of the day, EVE is very simple with a small number of rules like "don't fly what you can't replace" and "be careful who you trust". If I can play EVE, a brain damaged monkey can, and most FCs I've known are actual brain dead monkeys lol.

We (most of us who post here) learned to survive when the game was harsher, that means anyone who wants to, can. But only if they have reasonable expectations and the patience to survive being new. Most gamers don't which is why most MMOs are "level up/instant gratification" fests. EVE is for a different breed of gamer.
Othran
Route One
#69 - 2014-09-25 14:08:53 UTC
Hanz Hrible wrote:
It's not the game's fault- and it's not CCPs fault- The base of my frustration is with the cold playerbase- as I've observed in this thread alone- people just don't care about the experience a new player has- They don't care if they just blapped a person who was bright eyed and new to the game in their very first T1 destroyer that took them a week to save the 1 million isk to save for, they don't care if new players are having fun- No, not all players have this mindset, but there appears to be a very outspoken few who simply, don't care- and go further to gloat at the discomfort of new players.

YES I truly am a very new and very fresh player, under 1.5million SP- The reason I know about the things I've been writing about? Because A) The first corp I joined got war dec'd by Marmite and I wasn't left with any explination- so I had to google it for myself.. and B) I'm in prominent Sov Space alliance now with their own wikis and guides along with specialized new player training.



Basically nobody who shoots at other random players on a daily basis cares much about those players - just like you'd expect on FPS/Tanks/whatever - they are icons/graphics in a computer game.

If they actually know the players then its a different matter.

You'd be surprised just how many PvPrs are willing to explain to you in detail how you lost that 1v1 fight with them. Some of the best friends I have/had in Eve were people who blew me to bits - I convo'd them about the fight & got great advice. Most people want a better fight (up to a point with some ;) ) and are willing to help you.

You also have morons in Eve who just like taking the ****, like any game.

Eve doesn't appeal to many because of the high (potential) losses which can be incurred through non-consensual PvP. What is a high loss to a 3 month old character is a trivial loss to the same character at 6 months.

That is a serious issue & its why Goons/TEST/etc have become so successful - they recruit REAL newbies in and out of game & just say "Go have fun, we'll sort you out with new ships/skillbooks/etc, don't worry about isk".

The thing is though - the only reason lots of people play Eve in the first place is because of the losses which can be inflicted.

Playing on sisi isn't the same because its "pretend" - just like most MMOs. Have fight, get beaten, get nice items back. That's not Eve :)
Crumplecorn
Eve Cluster Explorations
#70 - 2014-09-25 14:08:56 UTC
Hanz Hrible wrote:
No where in my entire post have I asked for any one to give any one any thing.. Stop being so bitter.
Well if you don't want older players to give a damn about new players why are you complaining that they don't? Stop being so whiny.

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embrel
BamBam Inc.
#71 - 2014-09-25 14:12:35 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You know, most of the people who are replying to you climbed over this obstacle. More than a few of us are damned proud to have done so. (for my part the difficulty is the only reason I subbed in the first place)

So what you really have to answer is:

"Everyone else climbed over the wall, but I don't think I should have to because..."

Because why?


Nice argument. Should have been used at the discovery of antibiotics too.

You only forgot to mention that your wall was even higher at the time.

However, I am not sure whether there are enough around that climb these walls nowadays. At least active player numbers didn't look growing as of late.
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#72 - 2014-09-25 14:22:48 UTC
Yeah it can be tough for newbies, especially in certain activities like PVP where a small % in damage can make the difference between victory and defeat.

But Eve is like real life. You start at the bottom and climb your way to the top. As a newbie, there's no way to be on top of everything. But you can be on top within a small niche.

So for PVP, your skills might be crap and you can't fight the majority of frigates and destroyers that engage ypu. But you might design a ship you can fly that can take on drone-based frigates like the Tristan only. Run away from all ships you see except Tristans, and your chances of victory increase dramatically.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#73 - 2014-09-25 14:23:53 UTC
embrel wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You know, most of the people who are replying to you climbed over this obstacle. More than a few of us are damned proud to have done so. (for my part the difficulty is the only reason I subbed in the first place)

So what you really have to answer is:

"Everyone else climbed over the wall, but I don't think I should have to because..."

Because why?


Nice argument. Should have been used at the discovery of antibiotics too.

You only forgot to mention that your wall was even higher at the time.

However, I am not sure whether there are enough around that climb these walls nowadays. At least active player numbers didn't look growing as of late.


That's just fear mongering. BTW, yes, there are still way more players now than when I started in 2007 and I imagine Kaarous will say the same.

'Difficult' is a core aspect of EVE. A game should not have to change CORE aspects to survive, if they do that means that core aspect was bad to begin with.

Yet for the most part EVE has survived, where as others that changed core aspects (the words TRAMMEL and NGE come to mind) suffered and in many cases died. EVE has tried to lower barriers, and when it did, GROWTH STOPPED.

This should tell people something. Unfortunately, it never does.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#74 - 2014-09-25 14:27:40 UTC
Kaivar Lancer wrote:


But Eve is like real life.


At the end of the day, I think this is the real 'problem'. Other games (like most movies) go out of their way to NOT be anything like real life. They tell the player "you are special, you are a hero, YOU are the man". The have game mechanics that prevent 'reality' from intruding on the fantasy.

EVE tells players "you are **** till YOU and ONLY YOU prove otherwise by demonstrating you are smart enough to survive in a merciless Mosh pit of uncaring game mechanics". This is what makes EVE great.
Solecist Project
#75 - 2014-09-25 14:28:24 UTC
Jenn ... are you seriously equalling yourself to a brain damaged monkey? :/

That ringing in your ears you're experiencing right now is the last gasping breathe of a dying inner ear as it got thoroughly PULVERISED by the point roaring over your head at supersonic speeds. - Tippia
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#76 - 2014-09-25 14:33:53 UTC
Solecist Project wrote:
Jenn ... are you seriously equalling yourself to a brain damaged monkey? :/


Just repeating what my wife tells me every.single.day. Given enough time it just sinks in!
Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#77 - 2014-09-25 14:38:15 UTC
Here's one of my killmails where I lost 1.4 billion isk back in 2011. I stupidly hauled a billion isk worth of T2 supplies in a T1 hauler. Back then, PLEX was worth 350m or so, so I lost about four months worth of game time in a single attack.

https://zkillboard.com/kill/21126021/

This represented most of my capital at the time. I could've quit, but nope, I stuck with it and learned my lesson.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#78 - 2014-09-25 15:03:09 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:
The old "if you can't use your brain you can't play eve snarf snarf" stuff that get's spouted all the time is complete nonsense. At some point you have to look at the system and ask yourself if it's really working well enough. If so many people have trouble gaining traction in EVE, it seems to me the likely problem is EVE, not the players.
"A game is broken if it's hard". Bollocks.
Actually it's: If a game aims to attract new players but it's lack of guidance prevent new players from being able to enjoy playing the game, then it is broken.

The problem isn't that EVE is hard (which it isn't by the way). The problem is that EVE is not played in the same way as other games, yet doesn't explain how it is played well enough to someone who hasn't played it. The tutorials have way too much focus on mining, missioning and NPCs, and almost no focus on explaining how and why to join a good group, and the general player attitude is "if you don't know how to play EVE, go away". It's great that there are some of us who fight on through and continue to play, and if the idea is to keep the market tiny, then it's working as is. If the intention is to attract more new players (which fanfest seemed to imply is the case), serious work needs to be done.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#79 - 2014-09-25 15:05:56 UTC
Hanz Hrible wrote:
It's not the game's fault- and it's not CCPs fault- The base of my frustration is with the cold playerbase- as I've observed in this thread alone- people just don't care about the experience a new player has- They don't care if they just blapped a person who was bright eyed and new to the game in their very first T1 destroyer that took them a week to save the 1 million isk to save for, they don't care if new players are having fun- No, not all players have this mindset, but there appears to be a very outspoken few who simply, don't care- and go further to gloat at the discomfort of new players.

YES I truly am a very new and very fresh player, under 1.5million SP- The reason I know about the things I've been writing about? Because A) The first corp I joined got war dec'd by Marmite and I wasn't left with any explination- so I had to google it for myself.. and B) I'm in prominent Sov Space alliance now with their own wikis and guides along with specialized new player training.


Yeah, because the few outspoken ones that don't care are only there.

Ever thought that the large group that do care and just helps people instead of whining on the forum like you are doing.

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#80 - 2014-09-25 15:10:29 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Hanz Hrible wrote:
Mallak Azaria wrote:
Hanz Hrible wrote:
It's not the game's fault- and it's not CCPs fault- The base of my frustration is with the cold playerbase- as I've observed in this thread alone- people just don't care about the experience a new player has- They don't care if they just blapped a person who was bright eyed and new to the game in their very first T1 destroyer that took them a week to save the 1 million isk to save for, they don't care if new players are having fun- No, not all players have this mindset, but there appears to be a very outspoken few who simply, don't care- and go further to gloat at the discomfort of new players.

YES I truly am a very new and very fresh player, under 1.5million SP- The reason I know about the things I've been writing about? Because A) The first corp I joined got war dec'd by Marmite and I wasn't left with any explination- so I had to google it for myself.. and B) I'm in prominent Sov Space alliance now with their own wikis and guides along with new player training.


All of your perceived issues are a result of your mindset & belief that people should go out of their way to help you just in case you're some random new guy that is actually prepared to listen & take advice as opposed to what normally happens.




There's a difference between going "out of your way" to help some new person and not scamming them, ganking them, trolling them, and just being generally mean to them for no good reason.


You are clearly new...


How would I know that you are a new player, not some alt of a veteran.

Let me guess, you also so very narrowminded that you think that a frigate is only flown by a new player and all veterans fly battleships and capitals?

p.s. Post with your main, only then your points will have some grounds to be valid. Hiding behind an alt instantly means your points are just stupid, if you care that much about the game, you don't hide behind a forum alt.

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