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Why EvE subscription is low (A newbro perspective)
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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#21 - 2014-09-25 11:33:58 UTC
Hanz Hrible wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Hanz Hrible wrote:
Kousaka Otsu Shigure wrote:
Sorry but a month into the game will give you a really superficial insight of what eve is. So your OP is kinda not fair for the rest of us.

Try to give it at least a year.




But that's the issue, at most a player can only get 21 days before deciding to sub or not, and it's extremely difficult for a new player to circumvent those issues in that time- they get frustrated.. they leave.


It isn't.

If you know where to looks. Plenty of GOOD new player friendly corps around, plenty of new player friendly community channels around that can help you.





I've joined a very good, new player friendly corp that I'm enjoying quite well- but again the problem points to "knowing where to look". This isn't about me and my frustrations.


And CCP can't fix the "Knowing where to look" as every player is different, so they can't cover everything. EVE is 95% "DIY" build.

There are plenty of nice guides, linked in the New Player Q&A Recources sticky on the forum to help new players, all made by fellow players to make it easier for a new player to get into the game.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#22 - 2014-09-25 11:35:55 UTC
Crumplecorn wrote:
Hanz Hrible wrote:
But that's the issue, at most a player can only get 21 days before deciding to sub or not, and it's extremely difficult for a new player to circumvent those issues in that time- they get frustrated.. they leave.
'Those issues' can be summarised as being bad at the game, which is to be expected when you are new to a complex game. All of them can be avoided fairly easily if you learn or ask how.

But, you don't really want to learn, you just want to 'Grr Vets', right? Since the 'issues' you mentioned have little to nothing to do with character age, but somehow all come down to evil older characters molesting hapless newbies when you talk about them.


This.

Take a look at NCQA, plenty of new players coming there to ask their questions and getting a shitload of answers from vets.

It's the ones that don't ask questions, that don't use the playerbase that already exist as a source of knowledge, that will find it very hard to get into the game.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#23 - 2014-09-25 11:39:12 UTC
Hanz Hrible wrote:
Vyl Vit wrote:
What I get from the OP is a desire to be on top ASAP, then play from there. The long climb to the top isn't copascetic with the short-attention span, instant gratification mentality that pervades our culture these days. Sure, CCP could decide that market share is worth pursuing, and alter the nature of the game accordingly. But, then, EVE would no longer be EVE, and such a decision would indeed be monumental.

The telling point is a lack of desire to incrementally, over time, build ones character to the quality of at last being able to run with the big dogs. It's as though the young pup sees the big dogs and wants to take off NOW. That can't happen here if EVE is to remain EVE. There's no doubt "we" (the EVE community) have no desire to see our little sandbox changed to meet the desires of people who like games such as those. In fact, we think it's easier for such people to....
...FIND ANOTHER GAME.

TYVM, have a nice day. Shocked



I'm not sure your post was very helpful, "find another game" is easy. But actually sitting down and working out how to help truly new players deal with many of the game's pitfalls that they will inevitably fall into obviously requires critical thinking- and well, that just takes too much work.


*cough*

Help Chat Reloaded - Player run help chat, very useful

New Citizen Q&A forums - Ask a Q, get loads of A back within a day from loads of veterans.



Every source to get information quick an easy is there, it's not the game's fault that most new players don't use it and try to do it all theirself in their "singleplayer world".

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

Public roams channels: RvB Ganked / Redemption Road / Spectre Fleet / Bombers bar / The Content Club
Priscilla Project
Doomheim
#24 - 2014-09-25 11:39:15 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
It's the ones that don't ask questions, that don't use the playerbase that already exist as a source of knowledge, that will find it very hard to get into the game.
I agree on that one.

I did that.

I wanted it that way. (:
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Francis Inch
Kador Defence Initiative
#25 - 2014-09-25 11:41:47 UTC
Hanz Hrible wrote:
Crumplecorn wrote:
Hanz Hrible wrote:
I didn't say I was quitting- and I didn't say that I'm not learning. I said that these issues can really get to new players.
And I'm saying they aren't issues.



For someone new to the game they certainly can be- It takes time and patience to overcome the adversity a day 1 player faces. Maybe I realize that, but I'm certain I'm in the minority.


But these are only issues for those not thinking them through.

First, most high sec corps never get wardecced - I've been in and out of eve for 11 years and only 2 of the high sec corps I worked with got wardecced. It's not as common as people make out.

Most importantly though, corps are about cooperation. If the corp can't help you learn to cope with a war dec, what are the corp giving you in return for what you put in?

Same goes for null sec - if no one will help you, then leave that group and find a better one. Mmos are shared experiences and these rewards come from cooperation so picking your friends carefully is important.

Other than that, research, talk, ask.

People don't go into raids or pvp in other mmos without doing their homework, or expect end game income or high level group activities from day 1, why should you get it handed to you on a plate in eve?

There's nothing on this list that half an hour on google and a couple of questions to corp mates can't solve.
Xuixien
Solar Winds Security Solutions
#26 - 2014-09-25 11:44:03 UTC
eve has a higher wash out rate than special forces yet continues to grow. it had a few hiccups recently, but most of the lost subs were part of the "boomers" we saw an influx of around 2011ish.

Epic Space Cat, Horsegirl, Philanthropist
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#27 - 2014-09-25 11:59:00 UTC
You know, most of the people who are replying to you climbed over this obstacle. More than a few of us are damned proud to have done so. (for my part the difficulty is the only reason I subbed in the first place)

So what you really have to answer is:

"Everyone else climbed over the wall, but I don't think I should have to because..."

Because why?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Tahm Cruise
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#28 - 2014-09-25 12:06:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tahm Cruise
J'Poll wrote:
Hanz Hrible wrote:
So I've been in the game for about a month and I have made several observations on the game from a completely fresh set of eyes on the game..

A new player wanting to explore, trade, or mine is highsec is completely free to do so- But beware joining a player corp- because you'll likely get war dec'd by a corp such as the Marmite Collective and you'll be shut down financially unless your corp pays them for surrender. So be prepared to hire a freight company to move your stuff for you.

A new player may join a powerful nullsec alliance and have Sov space to play in- But don't go exploring, because you'll be locked down by a warp disruption bubble by a player that has a 20million SP on you and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

A new player is free to make isk through faction warfare- But that new player likely won't have the DPS for the faction spawns on the complexes- and again, if another player shows up, don't expect a fair fight, because that player will not be a fellow newbro and the fight will be anything but balanced.

I really enjoy how deep and immersive the game is, with so many options- I do, but the way this game seems to be played is "hide in the shadows until you think you can sucker punch a newbro, and run away if anything else shows up"


1. Then join a proper corp. I know plenty of corps who hardly get wardecced. Those that get wardecced by Marmite or anybody else made themselfs targets.

2. Then learn the basics on null-sec movement and you wouldn't care about bubbles anymore (tacs, no straight warps, intel, jump bridges).

3. Uhm, defensive plexes don't require shooting, you can D-scan and see others incoming.....]

* I know a guy who was less then 2 weeks old when she went to low-sec and started fighting old vets (of which one of them was in a channel with me and her and he was very very impressed by the new player)



So...fail + fail + fail = meh, let's keep it civil, but let's just say that none of your points hold anything of value.



Quote:
I'm having fun doing what I do, but it just seems like I'm limited to running with fleets in nullsec since I have no way to defend myself from rudes that have been playing the game for years and enjoy picking on people who've barely started.


Yes you have, intel and knowledge (the last one is important)....

If you see something on D-scan that you can't take...warp out.

All points you have pointed out have NOTHING to do with being new, it has to do with the choices and attitude of the PLAYER behind the character.



Way to go J'Poll! Classic anti social behaviour when some new guy comes around to explain what he feels is lacking in EVE.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

Right..
Cherry Sulphate
ojingo
#29 - 2014-09-25 12:16:31 UTC
hanz, in one month you managed to fully get a handle on exploration, trading, mining, hi-sec corp life, null sec corp life, faction warfare & pvp?

you've been one busy little goose.
maybe time for rest?
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#30 - 2014-09-25 12:16:54 UTC  |  Edited by: J'Poll
Tahm Cruise wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Hanz Hrible wrote:
So I've been in the game for about a month and I have made several observations on the game from a completely fresh set of eyes on the game..

A new player wanting to explore, trade, or mine is highsec is completely free to do so- But beware joining a player corp- because you'll likely get war dec'd by a corp such as the Marmite Collective and you'll be shut down financially unless your corp pays them for surrender. So be prepared to hire a freight company to move your stuff for you.

A new player may join a powerful nullsec alliance and have Sov space to play in- But don't go exploring, because you'll be locked down by a warp disruption bubble by a player that has a 20million SP on you and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

A new player is free to make isk through faction warfare- But that new player likely won't have the DPS for the faction spawns on the complexes- and again, if another player shows up, don't expect a fair fight, because that player will not be a fellow newbro and the fight will be anything but balanced.

I really enjoy how deep and immersive the game is, with so many options- I do, but the way this game seems to be played is "hide in the shadows until you think you can sucker punch a newbro, and run away if anything else shows up"


1. Then join a proper corp. I know plenty of corps who hardly get wardecced. Those that get wardecced by Marmite or anybody else made themselfs targets.

2. Then learn the basics on null-sec movement and you wouldn't care about bubbles anymore (tacs, no straight warps, intel, jump bridges).

3. Uhm, defensive plexes don't require shooting, you can D-scan and see others incoming.....]

* I know a guy who was less then 2 weeks old when she went to low-sec and started fighting old vets (of which one of them was in a channel with me and her and he was very very impressed by the new player)



So...fail + fail + fail = meh, let's keep it civil, but let's just say that none of your points hold anything of value.



Quote:
I'm having fun doing what I do, but it just seems like I'm limited to running with fleets in nullsec since I have no way to defend myself from rudes that have been playing the game for years and enjoy picking on people who've barely started.


Yes you have, intel and knowledge (the last one is important)....

If you see something on D-scan that you can't take...warp out.

All points you have pointed out have NOTHING to do with being new, it has to do with the choices and attitude of the PLAYER behind the character.



Way to go J'Poll! Classic anti social behaviour when some new guy comes around to explain what he feels is lacking in EVE.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

Right..


Never said there ain't no problem.

But the things he lists are easily avoided by playing smart, ask questions and be part of a good group that works together.


Let's add some extra value to the points.

1. The majority of corps in high-sec hardly / never get wardecced (I've been in a corp that was 8 years old and had 1 wardec, dated back to 2010). Also, part of a corporation is co-operation, so if you work together a wardec should not lock you down but add extra options to your gameplay (fleet up and mine / mission together, take a fleet and jump into a wormhole...ergo work together). Specially against most wardec corps that tend to stick to 1 area or just camp trade hubs/lanes.

2. If you get caught as a new player in bubbles, ask your freaking corp/alliance you just joined how to avoid them. Most corp have corporate bookmarks around gates to get around those drag bubbles...again, you have to work together with the people you grouped up with.

3. FW, again, there is an entire militia chat you can work with. That said, get into a defensive plex, watch Dscan and the intel channels and you should be relatively safe (never 100% of course).

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

Help channel: Help chat - Reloaded

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Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2014-09-25 12:17:24 UTC
Tahm Cruise wrote:
J'Poll wrote:
Hanz Hrible wrote:
So I've been in the game for about a month and I have made several observations on the game from a completely fresh set of eyes on the game..

A new player wanting to explore, trade, or mine is highsec is completely free to do so- But beware joining a player corp- because you'll likely get war dec'd by a corp such as the Marmite Collective and you'll be shut down financially unless your corp pays them for surrender. So be prepared to hire a freight company to move your stuff for you.

A new player may join a powerful nullsec alliance and have Sov space to play in- But don't go exploring, because you'll be locked down by a warp disruption bubble by a player that has a 20million SP on you and there is absolutely nothing you can do about it.

A new player is free to make isk through faction warfare- But that new player likely won't have the DPS for the faction spawns on the complexes- and again, if another player shows up, don't expect a fair fight, because that player will not be a fellow newbro and the fight will be anything but balanced.

I really enjoy how deep and immersive the game is, with so many options- I do, but the way this game seems to be played is "hide in the shadows until you think you can sucker punch a newbro, and run away if anything else shows up"


1. Then join a proper corp. I know plenty of corps who hardly get wardecced. Those that get wardecced by Marmite or anybody else made themselfs targets.

2. Then learn the basics on null-sec movement and you wouldn't care about bubbles anymore (tacs, no straight warps, intel, jump bridges).

3. Uhm, defensive plexes don't require shooting, you can D-scan and see others incoming.....]

* I know a guy who was less then 2 weeks old when she went to low-sec and started fighting old vets (of which one of them was in a channel with me and her and he was very very impressed by the new player)



So...fail + fail + fail = meh, let's keep it civil, but let's just say that none of your points hold anything of value.



Quote:
I'm having fun doing what I do, but it just seems like I'm limited to running with fleets in nullsec since I have no way to defend myself from rudes that have been playing the game for years and enjoy picking on people who've barely started.


Yes you have, intel and knowledge (the last one is important)....

If you see something on D-scan that you can't take...warp out.

All points you have pointed out have NOTHING to do with being new, it has to do with the choices and attitude of the PLAYER behind the character.



Way to go J'Poll! Classic anti social behaviour when some new guy comes around to explain what he feels is lacking in EVE.

THERE IS NO PROBLEM.

Right..


The problem is player mentality, there's not much wrong with the game itself.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Prince Kobol
#32 - 2014-09-25 12:18:31 UTC
Xuixien wrote:
eve has a higher wash out rate than special forces yet continues to grow. it had a few hiccups recently, but most of the lost subs were part of the "boomers" we saw an influx of around 2011ish.


Continues to grow.. you sure about that one?
Mallak Azaria
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#33 - 2014-09-25 12:18:31 UTC
Actually what am I saying? There's a lot wrong with this game, but everything the OP listed are state of mind issues & not actual issues that exist outside of his own mind.

This post was lovingly crafted by a member of the Goonwaffe Posting Cabal, proud member of the popular gay hookup site somethingawful.com, Spelling Bee, Grammar Gestapo & #1 Official Gevlon Goblin Fanclub member.
Yarda Black
The Black Redemption
#34 - 2014-09-25 12:20:38 UTC
I dont think new players leave because they only have 21 days to decide.

I also dont think new players leave cos they lose stuff or get blown up.

I dont think any of this is true because every "old" player (someone who obviously stayed and subbed) was once... a new player.

People that stay are people that make due with what they have and plan on what to get.

The rest just wither and die
J'Poll
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#35 - 2014-09-25 12:21:42 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
eve has a higher wash out rate than special forces yet continues to grow. it had a few hiccups recently, but most of the lost subs were part of the "boomers" we saw an influx of around 2011ish.


Continues to grow.. you sure about that one?


And you do know that PCU =/= amount of subscriptions.

As long as amount of subscriptions rises...EVE grows.

Personal channel: Crazy Dutch Guy

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Prince Kobol
#36 - 2014-09-25 12:24:06 UTC
J'Poll wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Xuixien wrote:
eve has a higher wash out rate than special forces yet continues to grow. it had a few hiccups recently, but most of the lost subs were part of the "boomers" we saw an influx of around 2011ish.


Continues to grow.. you sure about that one?


And you do know that PCU =/= amount of subscriptions.

As long as amount of subscriptions rises...EVE grows.


At any point did I mention the PCU count?

Please show everybody the current subscription count and how it has risen the last 12 months.
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-09-25 12:33:06 UTC
Nice thought, not much effort put into finding good reasons, prepare to be roflstomped by people not knowing the difference between "anyone" and "everyone", but it seems that it is already happening, so nvm, carry on...
Haedonism Bot
People for the Ethical Treatment of Rogue Drones
#38 - 2014-09-25 12:41:40 UTC
Eve is supposed to be hard. All of the things that you listed are legitimate challenges that most new players can be expected to face. But the thing is - that's sort of the idea. It's by design that as soon as your tutorial is finished, you are supposed to be thrust into a cold, harsh universe to succeed or fail by your wits.

All of those bullet points that you mentioned are real challenges that newbros have to learn to deal with, as the developers intended. And all of them can be avoided, overcome, or exploited by clever newbros who educate themselves. You should get comfortable with losing ships, do your homework, look for the hidden opportunities in every apparent crisis, and fly boldly.

That, and also post with your main, and never bring your tears to the forums again.

www.everevolutionaryfront.blogspot.com

Vote Sabriz Adoudel and Tora Bushido for CSMX. Keep the Evil in EVE!
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#39 - 2014-09-25 12:48:55 UTC
Op could have just linked this and not bothered with the rest. It's hard to not notice how EVERY time this topic comes up it's from the 'solo' point of view. Newsflash, you aren't SUPPOED to be able to do much at the beginning of any good game, you grow into it in time.

The problem isn't the game (10s of thousands of us survived a much harsher new player experience years ago), it's the lack of will, creativity and self awareness on the part of many 'new players'. They have terribly bad expectations (like being able to 'do all the things' after only being a month old) which leads to clouded judgements about every thing.

How many times have we seen (or been the ) people who tried the game, didn't like it, only to come back later with fresh more mature and more patient eyes and fall in love with it?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#40 - 2014-09-25 12:53:43 UTC
Haedonism Bot wrote:
Eve is supposed to be hard. All of the things that you listed are legitimate challenges that most new players can be expected to face. But the thing is - that's sort of the idea. It's by design that as soon as your tutorial is finished, you are supposed to be thrust into a cold, harsh universe to succeed or fail by your wits.

All of those bullet points that you mentioned are real challenges that newbros have to learn to deal with, as the developers intended. And all of them can be avoided, overcome, or exploited by clever newbros who educate themselves. You should get comfortable with losing ships, do your homework, look for the hidden opportunities in every apparent crisis, and fly boldly.

That, and also post with your main, and never bring your tears to the forums again.


Well said, glad i said it too Big smile

I tend to think there are 2 kinds of people in games, the minority that not only likes a challenge, but needs one, and the majority that wants everything set out in from of them like a buffet so that their hardest choice is what to consume 1st. That's why most of the MMO game making industry is about making thempark games and why so many EVE (and other niche sandbox) game players are so incompatible with most non-niche MMO games.