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A bit of focus ?

Author
Larritesh Mconion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2014-09-24 12:39:26 UTC
Hi folks. i'm after a bit of input if y'all don't mind ?!

Basically, my 'other' character is a miner / industry toon so i've not actually ventured in to the PVE / Missions side of the game before. After a quick flit with the Rifter and Rupture, i've finally settled on the Hurricane as my prefered boat for the time being.

the trouble is, while deciding what boat i wanted, i merely jumped on all the skills i thought necessary. Now i'm at a stage where i'm doing Level 3's solo or assisting my bro doing level 4's and i've noticed that i'm not really doing as much damage as i would like to be doing - to the point where i had to quit one of the L3 missions as, as quick as i was damaging one of the ships, it was rep'ing itself ! (with drones out too)

Character is Here

load out is:
highs
650mm Medium Scout Art x 4
425mm auto cannon I x2 (can't remember which variant, but believe it's the Meta 4)
Medium
10mn experimental AB
cap recharger II x3
Low
medium armor rep x2 (cheating i know, but bloody effective)
Energized adaptive nano membrane x3 (switched around for whichever tolerances are needed per mission)
Damage Control Unit II
Rigs: medium cap control II x 2, Medium cap control I x1


I'm sure i've missed something on that list, so i'll check it when i get home and make sure it's right.

Basically, what i'm looking for is help focusing his skills in to what will actually help him, rather than wasting his time - he's only about 6 weeks old so plenty of time to grow in to other skill areas.
Antillie Sa'Kan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#2 - 2014-09-24 15:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Antillie Sa'Kan
First, use the same type of guns, either all arty or all ACs. Then train up medium projectile turret some more and work on the gunnery support skills. Minmatar battle cruiser is screaming for more training as well. Train your cap skills and try to get some tracking computers in your mid slots instead of all those cap mods. Use active hardeners instead of energized adaptive nano membranes and get a gyro stabilizer or two in your low slots. Drones V and a few levels of drone interfacing will also help a lot.

You have a lot to train to be really effective in a BC. But you will get there.
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#3 - 2014-09-24 16:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: RavenPaine
I have several thoughts. I'll try to make them fluid, I just woke up though Idea

First off: Level 3's can be hard missions. It's pretty common to warp out of some of them, especially with a character as young as yours is.
At 2 million SP, I didn't have to look at skills very much, to know you just need more time. I really don't think your skills are all spread out. Just get higher levels on the skills you already own.

Specifically
Guns- Support skills need some love. get the rank 1's and 2's to level V. The others to IV for now.

Battle cruiser skill- Get that to IV asap. The hull bonus's will show right away. You will feel the improvement easily.

Drones- Drones have always been a favorite for me, but especially right now in EVE, they are at an all time effectiveness.
Your drones are slow and weak right now because of minimal skilling. Put a month into them and they will start to kick some ass.

Fitting that Cane- I never missioned in a Cane, but I know that fit can't be the right fit. Mixing guns, no damage mods, coupled with low skilling would make that ship hard to keep alive. The Cane is not known for tank anyway, so killing enemies at a slow pace is the worst thing to happen for it. I'm sure someone can list a better fit, and many will suggest another route all together.
Your Minmatar goal would be to work up to a Maelstrom, which is a great ship. So I wouldn't discourage you from that line of training.

"A bit of focus" is exactly right. You're on the right track, just keep bangin' on the skills you already own.


Ninja Edit: Your fit probably revolves around some notion of 'Cap Stable'. Don't get all caught up in that. 'Cap Stable' is a guide line, not a law.

Real Edit: I took so long to type, that Antillie posted before me, but you can see he saw almost the exact same things that I saw.
Elena Thiesant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-09-25 07:34:59 UTC
This is what I use for L3 occasionally. Works very nicely. What you can't fit as T2, downgrade to a meta mod.
Yes, it's probably well over-tanked (passive shield tank). Still tears most L3s apart

[Hurricane, L3]
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Tracking Enhancer II
Shield Power Relay II
Shield Power Relay II

Large Shield Extender II
Large Shield Extender II
Limited Adaptive Invulnerability Field I
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I

650mm Medium 'Scout' Artillery I, Phased Plasma M
650mm Medium 'Scout' Artillery I, Phased Plasma M
650mm Medium 'Scout' Artillery I, Phased Plasma M
650mm Medium 'Scout' Artillery I, Phased Plasma M
650mm Medium 'Scout' Artillery I, Phased Plasma M
650mm Medium 'Scout' Artillery I, Phased Plasma M
[empty high slot]

Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I
Medium Core Defense Field Purger I


Larritesh Mconion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2014-09-29 07:19:42 UTC
Thanks for the responses so far folks.

Ship fits i'm not overly fussed about, after reading the comments - he's not doing too bad for a 2 month old char, so once his skills are up he should be fine.
Junkiloton
Corporate Retail Operations With Y'all
#6 - 2014-09-29 15:28:45 UTC
Skillwise:
I'd say until your core skills for a ship are at about level 3, you shouldn't worry too much about low performance; proper DPS takes time, as you've noted. Get your guns, tank, and navigation up to par and you should be golden for level 4s. Try not to deviate too far out of shield tanking, speed/agility, and tracking/arty dps (in that order) if you're focusing on minmatar ships. Most of them aren't built to park in the middle of space and tank a room, but their shields are more than adequate to absorb glancing shots from BC/BS and frigate damage. Your main objective is to be too fast for anything heavy to hit you for more than a few seconds while you open a gap. Having passably good shield tanking skills on top of your ship's speed/agility simply makes things that much easier.

That said, there are a few tips that should help, especially with the observation that you're having trouble cracking things in a 3 (which indicates misses and weak hits rather than low skills (I can run most 4s in a proper battlecruiser with core skills at 3 or 4 if I want to):

Artillery has perilously bad tracking, but works wonders with a kiting setup. Set your keep-at-range to inside of your optimal for the ammo you're using.You should not find yourself to be orbiting in an arty boat too often, as this generates too many misses and glancing blows, even with tracking enhancers (the relatively small amount of tracking that large turrets have sees very little benefit from any sort of tracking speed boost, rather). If you NEED to orbit (out-gunned by a larger ship), minmatar boats are at least good at having better tracking than their opponents at the same orbit, so you should be able to reduce damage from bigger ships in a range fight by orbiting. For everything else, outdistance and outgun.

To find out how fast you can actually go (transversal split OR orbiting a stationary target), multiply the tracking number listed on your gun by your optimal range (in meters; so 35km will be 35,000m) This will give you the maximum transversal speed AT THAT DISTANCE that you can go and still hit things somewhat reliably. I would make sure that you can see transversals on overview, as your tracking cares about that number, not necessarily how fast you are actually going. You can check this on by going to overview settings and clicking the columns tab if you have not already done so. Radial velocity can be used for a direct 1:1 with your tracking, but is less convenient to read and memorize due to the way the brain works. Your mileage may vary. I use transversal.

If anything, fit for speed, let drones sort out frigates, and focus your attention on the larger ships. Minmatar boats of all sizes tend to be fast, so a speed fit with an AB or MWD will perform fantastically regardless of whether you're using artillery or ACs.

Also, make sure your ammo types are matched to the mission resistance gaps, since you're using projectiles and have that option. I haven't come across anything in a level 3 that can withstand even 200dps, and I've been playing a while, although you might have to chip at a few enemies (drone BS come to mind).

A slight modification for an artykite (using Elena's kit as a base) would be to trade out the tracking enhancers for prop overdrives for the flat speed boost (nanofiber also works, but for a kite BC/BS fit, your top speed matters slightly more than the extra second or two you gain in acceleration) and switch the AB to an MWD. If you have issues with power grid, swap a shield relay for a power diagnostic; you lose some of passive regen but get some extra grid, shield hp, and cap/regen. Tracking only matters when looking at the target's transversal speed (how fast they're moving around you). Things that are being forced to charge your guns have no actual transversal; moreso if you are faster than them, so the actual distance you can maintain means more at this point. This holds true for enemies firing at you, which is why range superiority is mildly important: you want to be able to hit them within your optimal while taking minimum/no damage from your opponent(s).

The damage in 3s isn't typically high enough to warrant a full-out tank, so there's room to play around with a L3 runner. L4s can be more of a bear, though, so get comfortable with kiting in the 3s first. Although as a support ship, you should be fine in 4s.
Larritesh Mconion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#7 - 2014-09-30 12:40:45 UTC
Thanks for the response, Junkiloton. I'll have a play with the fit tonight and redirect my training plan in to shields as i've been focusing more on armour !
Arcos Vandymion
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#8 - 2014-09-30 21:22:43 UTC
At 2.5m SP you'll probably have a hard time doing L3s - the impact SP can have on the efficiency of a ship is quite insane (compare your output to an all V char ^^). We talk about differences of up to +50% and potentially more.

The above shieldfit isn't bad but I'd recommend more skillpoints in Shield Managment and Shield Operation to run it. An armor alternative below.

In it's most basic incarnation an armortank is something like a primary hardener, a secondary hardener and then a repper. The rest are usually filled with damagemods or application mods. In the mids you'll find a propmod (important) and then Tracking Computers and Cap Rechargers. The highs are filled with the hulls bonused turrets. Going with that we arrive at something like:

[Hurricane, Hurricane: Terror 650s]

Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Tracking Computer II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I

650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Inferno Light Missile

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


While this is all T2 downgrading to the appropraite Meta (as long as those still exist) shouldn't be to hard. In this configuration the fit puts out about 500 DPS close range ammo drones included; which is more than enough for an L3 (though if you run L3s with an all V char ....)
Use specific hardeners, this tanks 129 against Angels and as every armorpilot knows - angels are !§%$)=("!§&. The tank against say, Sansha and Blood will obviously be vastly superior due to the innate resistances of T1 armor against EM/Th.

The trick with an artillery setup is, as Junkiloton said trying to keep the rats on the approach (aka you are running away) to negate the, excuse me, crap tracking of Arty.

It also needs slightly better cap management - though this particular setup can run capstable (guns that don't need cap...).
Larritesh Mconion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2014-10-01 08:35:34 UTC
Junkiloton wrote:


To find out how fast you can actually go (transversal split OR orbiting a stationary target), multiply the tracking number listed on your gun by your optimal range (in meters; so 35km will be 35,000m) This will give you the maximum transversal speed AT THAT DISTANCE that you can go and still hit things somewhat reliably. I would make sure that you can see transversals on overview, as your tracking cares about that number, not necessarily how fast you are actually going. You can check this on by going to overview settings and clicking the columns tab if you have not already done so. Radial velocity can be used for a direct 1:1 with your tracking, but is less convenient to read and memorize due to the way the brain works. Your mileage may vary. I use transversal.
.


I had a bit of a play with this last night, worked out my speed should be ~330Ms and jumped on the next L3 mission - the difference was immense. hits and penetrations on i'd say a solid 90% of each round !
Larritesh Mconion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#10 - 2014-10-01 11:46:11 UTC
Arcos Vandymion wrote:
At 2.5m SP you'll probably have a hard time doing L3s - the impact SP can have on the efficiency of a ship is quite insane (compare your output to an all V char ^^). We talk about differences of up to +50% and potentially more.

The above shieldfit isn't bad but I'd recommend more skillpoints in Shield Managment and Shield Operation to run it. An armor alternative below.

In it's most basic incarnation an armortank is something like a primary hardener, a secondary hardener and then a repper. The rest are usually filled with damagemods or application mods. In the mids you'll find a propmod (important) and then Tracking Computers and Cap Rechargers. The highs are filled with the hulls bonused turrets. Going with that we arrive at something like:

[Hurricane, Hurricane: Terror 650s]

Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Tracking Computer II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I

650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Inferno Light Missile

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


While this is all T2 downgrading to the appropraite Meta (as long as those still exist) shouldn't be to hard. In this configuration the fit puts out about 500 DPS close range ammo drones included; which is more than enough for an L3 (though if you run L3s with an all V char ....)
Use specific hardeners, this tanks 129 against Angels and as every armorpilot knows - angels are !§%$)=("!§&. The tank against say, Sansha and Blood will obviously be vastly superior due to the innate resistances of T1 armor against EM/Th.

The trick with an artillery setup is, as Junkiloton said trying to keep the rats on the approach (aka you are running away) to negate the, excuse me, crap tracking of Arty.

It also needs slightly better cap management - though this particular setup can run capstable (guns that don't need cap...).


i'll have a look at this one tonight, pretty sure the only thing on that list i can't use are the Arty II's - at the moment !
Larritesh Mconion
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2014-10-02 07:07:46 UTC
Arcos Vandymion wrote:


Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Tracking Computer II
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I

650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
650mm Artillery Cannon II, Phased Plasma M
Rapid Light Missile Launcher II, Inferno Light Missile

Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Medium Capacitor Control Circuit I


Had a play with this last night, bought myself a republic fleet BPC and built one (the joys of having a mining alt) only i had to make a couple of changes so the fit looks like this...

Armor Kinetic Hardener II
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Medium Armor Repairer II
Damage Control II
Gyrostabilizer II
Gyrostabilizer II

Tracking Computer I + Tracking script
Cap Recharger II
Cap Recharger II
Experimental 10MN Afterburner I
720MM 'Scout' Art I
720MM 'Scout' Art I
720MM 'Scout' Art I
720MM 'Scout' Art I
720MM 'Scout' Art I
720MM 'Scout' Art I
Heavy 'Arbalest' launcher I
Heavy 'Arbalest' launcher I

Medium Aux Nano Pump I
Medium Ancillary control II
Medium Cap Control II

Instapopping L4 frigates at 40KM, and breaking cruisers with 2 volleys is very very nice, considering i was struggling in L3's ! My bro in his Raven takes out the battleships while i whoop everything else !

I would like to thank all those that have offered fits or any other info Bear