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Jita Miners Indices
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Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#21 - 2014-09-26 13:36:40 UTC
Neugeniko wrote:
I online pos, swap to a freighter, compress, offline pos and ship to jita while my orca pilot continues to mine in a mackinaw. I lose about 1/2 my normal IPH for 2 hours out of 30 or so (~ 4%). POS fuel costs are almost inconsequential when you move about a billion isk of ore at a time.

Neug


If you unanchor & anchor the POS as well, as part of a 'low profile' strategy, and you do say two separate one hours of compressing that is equivalent to 50 million ISK worth of mining time lost. Based on mining & moving a billion ISK of ore at a time that is. If you switch to 'AFKing' a Mackinaw, aside from the inherent risk in doing that kind of thing in a 250 mill ship, you will mine less yield than with your maxed Orca/Hulk combo. So on that operation to enable selling in a compressed format you have lost 50 mill ISK plus maybe *guessing* another 20 million ISK from using a unsupported Mackinaw for two hours while you freight the ore to Jita. I am in agreement with you that two hours POS fuel costs are very inconsequential in comparison to your turnover.

On a separate note there are various ways of selling ore and you do not have to haul it yourself to a trade hub/Jita. This task can easily be avoided by miners with no negative effects to revenue. A freighter or use of another pilots freighter is still a necessary part of the operational 'tools' though.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#22 - 2014-09-26 13:40:38 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Neugeniko wrote:
I online pos, swap to a freighter, compress, offline pos and ship to jita while my orca pilot continues to mine in a mackinaw. I lose about 1/2 my normal IPH for 2 hours out of 30 or so (~ 4%). POS fuel costs are almost inconsequential when you move about a billion isk of ore at a time.

Neug



Freighter + Orca + Mack = 1 person does not compute at all ;) -

else i do appreciate your effort. What you describe is by default a group operation. You cant multibox this and then publish those figures as index like its done by a single person - which is why i stated it earlier knowing your figures couldnt possibly be based on 1 person does it all (in sequence). If you want people to rely on your numbers you need to describe the setup before the numbers or change them to non-multiboxed calculation.


Neugeniko is basing her figures on the EVE 'standard' of one person running two accounts. I don't have access to CCP's info but I imagine most people who play EVE have 2+ accounts. Multiple career types in New Eden require two accounts to do the job more effectively. Smile

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#23 - 2014-09-26 13:48:39 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Neugeniko wrote:
I online pos, swap to a freighter, compress, offline pos and ship to jita while my orca pilot continues to mine in a mackinaw. I lose about 1/2 my normal IPH for 2 hours out of 30 or so (~ 4%). POS fuel costs are almost inconsequential when you move about a billion isk of ore at a time.

Neug



Freighter + Orca + Mack = 1 person does not compute at all ;) -

else i do appreciate your effort. What you describe is by default a group operation. You cant multibox this and then publish those figures as index like its done by a single person - which is why i stated it earlier knowing your figures couldnt possibly be based on 1 person does it all (in sequence). If you want people to rely on your numbers you need to describe the setup before the numbers or change them to non-multiboxed calculation.


Neugeniko is basing her figures on the EVE 'standard' of one person running two accounts. I don't have access to CCP's info but I imagine most people who play EVE have 2+ accounts. Multiple career types in New Eden require two accounts to do the job more effectively. Smile


Yeah the old 'gold standard' of orca/hulk combo. Mack/hulk is now the peak isk generator for 2 accounts thou, actually it's the highest per account I think. I checked it against orca/2 hulks a while ago.

Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#24 - 2014-09-26 13:54:43 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Neugeniko wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Wow, didn't think hedbergite would have the same value as veldspar. Any reason why low sec ores have crashed in price?


Maybe the indices have changed but compressing veldspar is at 37M per hour while refining hedbergite (in a null/lowsec pos) is at 45M per hour. Refining hedbergite at a max null outpost (column AP) is at 50M per hour.

Neug


I haven't actually looked at your websites/spreadsheets but I question where you get 37 million ISK per hour mining Veldspar using a Orca/Hulk combo. My latest figures come out at about 25.6 million per hour and that's mostly mining Dense Veldspar, the 10% variety, with maybe a little of the Concentrated Veldspar. If you're selling that ore compressed you are not going to be able to sell it for 37 million ISK even in null sec with the approximately 20% extra yield at a level five outpost. So unless buyers in nullsec are willing to pay way over the odds that figure is utterly incorrect. QuestionQuestion



Are using actual real world figures for IPH or is that a calculation? If its a calculation then 120km3 per hour in a UNBOOSTED hulk times 232 isk per m3 is 27.7 M per hour. If that real world figures then excuse me and thanks for a reference figure.

Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Gaius Clabbacus
Control Alt Delve
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2014-09-26 14:32:01 UTC
Neugeniko wrote:
I online pos, swap to a freighter, compress, offline pos and ship to jita while my orca pilot continues to mine in a mackinaw. I lose about 1/2 my normal IPH for 2 hours out of 30 or so (~ 4%). POS fuel costs are almost inconsequential when you move about a billion isk of ore at a time.

Neug


Wouldnt it be more economical to leave the hauling to RedFrog or similar entiity?
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#26 - 2014-09-26 16:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Neugeniko
Spreadsheet seems to be having some problems retrieving data from eve markets. I think i broke google docs. Will look at it tommorrow....nn.

HRMMM seems to have fixed itself.

Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Dwissi
Miners Delight Reborn
#27 - 2014-09-26 20:18:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Dwissi
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Neugeniko wrote:
I online pos, swap to a freighter, compress, offline pos and ship to jita while my orca pilot continues to mine in a mackinaw. I lose about 1/2 my normal IPH for 2 hours out of 30 or so (~ 4%). POS fuel costs are almost inconsequential when you move about a billion isk of ore at a time.

Neug



Freighter + Orca + Mack = 1 person does not compute at all ;) -

else i do appreciate your effort. What you describe is by default a group operation. You cant multibox this and then publish those figures as index like its done by a single person - which is why i stated it earlier knowing your figures couldnt possibly be based on 1 person does it all (in sequence). If you want people to rely on your numbers you need to describe the setup before the numbers or change them to non-multiboxed calculation.


Neugeniko is basing her figures on the EVE 'standard' of one person running two accounts. I don't have access to CCP's info but I imagine most people who play EVE have 2+ accounts. Multiple career types in New Eden require two accounts to do the job more effectively. Smile


I wasnt questioning the account usage in general but the lack of a proper definition how these numbers where achieved. An Index isnt worth anything unless clearly stated how the numbers have been achieved. The forums are also read by newer people or people who change into a new career in Eve.

Proud designer of glasses for geeky dovakins

Before someone complains again: grr everyone

Greed is the death of loyalty
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#28 - 2014-09-26 21:30:41 UTC
Neugeniko wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Wow, didn't think hedbergite would have the same value as veldspar. Any reason why low sec ores have crashed in price?


Maybe the indices have changed but compressing veldspar is at 37M per hour while refining hedbergite (in a null/lowsec pos) is at 45M per hour. Refining hedbergite at a max null outpost (column AP) is at 50M per hour.

Neug


I'm not 'trolling' you or anything but I still don't understand where you get the 37 million ISK per hour for mining Veldspar. I may be a little under on my maths but not 12 million ISK under.

Does your spreadsheet draw prices from the highest sell order prices at Jita ? If so I guess it's poosible for you to maybe get that high a figure. But no one is actually going to pay that much.

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#29 - 2014-09-26 23:21:17 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Neugeniko wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Wow, didn't think hedbergite would have the same value as veldspar. Any reason why low sec ores have crashed in price?


Maybe the indices have changed but compressing veldspar is at 37M per hour while refining hedbergite (in a null/lowsec pos) is at 45M per hour. Refining hedbergite at a max null outpost (column AP) is at 50M per hour.

Neug


I'm not 'trolling' you or anything but I still don't understand where you get the 37 million ISK per hour for mining Veldspar. I may be a little under on my maths but not 12 million ISK under.

Does your spreadsheet draw prices from the highest sell order prices at Jita ? If so I guess it's poosible for you to maybe get that high a figure. But no one is actually going to pay that much.


My guess is your not applying orca, ie fleet bonii, to your calculations. You can apply fleet bonii to a hulk using eft or pyfa. Just setup a orca with mining foreman link - laser optimization II and a mining foreman mind link, then add the ship as fleet booster to your hulk.

Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#30 - 2014-09-26 23:47:37 UTC
Dwissi wrote:
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Dwissi wrote:
Neugeniko wrote:
I online pos, swap to a freighter, compress, offline pos and ship to jita while my orca pilot continues to mine in a mackinaw. I lose about 1/2 my normal IPH for 2 hours out of 30 or so (~ 4%). POS fuel costs are almost inconsequential when you move about a billion isk of ore at a time.

Neug



Freighter + Orca + Mack = 1 person does not compute at all ;) -

else i do appreciate your effort. What you describe is by default a group operation. You cant multibox this and then publish those figures as index like its done by a single person - which is why i stated it earlier knowing your figures couldnt possibly be based on 1 person does it all (in sequence). If you want people to rely on your numbers you need to describe the setup before the numbers or change them to non-multiboxed calculation.


Neugeniko is basing her figures on the EVE 'standard' of one person running two accounts. I don't have access to CCP's info but I imagine most people who play EVE have 2+ accounts. Multiple career types in New Eden require two accounts to do the job more effectively. Smile


I wasnt questioning the account usage in general but the lack of a proper definition how these numbers where achieved. An Index isnt worth anything unless clearly stated how the numbers have been achieved. The forums are also read by newer people or people who change into a new career in Eve.


I'll add further information about what is taken into account that affects the index.

Cheers,
Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#31 - 2014-09-27 01:05:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Neugeniko
Found a 0.26% error to the index from mining drone rig stacking calculations. Neocom for iPhone appears to have wrong mining drone calculations. I've used the data from pyfa instead to check and correct those calculations.

Thanks for the interest and likes guys, it give me the incentive I need to make sure everything is as accurate as possible.

EDIT: I've fixed the drone yield calculator in the useful info subsheet and checked it against pyfa.

Cheers,
Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#32 - 2014-09-27 06:53:14 UTC
At dwissis request I've added some further fine print explaining what is taken into account that effects the index. It on the first subsheet of the spreadsheet.

A brief list of what is taken into account
- losing time from traveling from pos/npc station to the asteroid belt.
- reduced boosts when the orca is warping.
- travel time for mining drones from ship to/from asteroid.
- overmining of drone and ship mining lasers.
- a 1.5 sec (1-2 server tick) command delay to turning on lasers, commanding drones and commanding your ship to warp.

Other things that are handled in the simulation but don't apply to using a orca unloading ore at a POS
- Losing boosts when orca docks at a npc station.
- Losing time when moving the ore in a mining ship to a station or pos. ie when solo mining in a Mack, retriever etc.

The devil is in the details.
Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn
Department 10
#33 - 2014-09-27 13:39:34 UTC
Neugeniko wrote:
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Neugeniko wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Wow, didn't think hedbergite would have the same value as veldspar. Any reason why low sec ores have crashed in price?


Maybe the indices have changed but compressing veldspar is at 37M per hour while refining hedbergite (in a null/lowsec pos) is at 45M per hour. Refining hedbergite at a max null outpost (column AP) is at 50M per hour.

Neug


I'm not 'trolling' you or anything but I still don't understand where you get the 37 million ISK per hour for mining Veldspar. I may be a little under on my maths but not 12 million ISK under.

Does your spreadsheet draw prices from the highest sell order prices at Jita ? If so I guess it's poosible for you to maybe get that high a figure. But no one is actually going to pay that much.


My guess is your not applying orca, ie fleet bonii, to your calculations. You can apply fleet bonii to a hulk using eft or pyfa. Just setup a orca with mining foreman link - laser optimization II and a mining foreman mind link, then add the ship as fleet booster to your hulk.

Neug


ROFL! *stifles a laughing fit*. Ahem. My 25.6 million ISK per hour for Dense Veldspar is a little 'organic' but it's not out by anything like what you are suggesting. It is based on the use of a mining mindlink, T2 mining links, T2 strip miners and T2 mining crystals, standard 5% hardwiring but NOT the Michi hardwiring, one T2 MLU ( I don't advocate flying without a 'tank'.) maxed Orca and Exhumer relevant skills. I daresay I have better leadership skills than yourself with lvl 5 in ALL of the link skills for combat & mining, and up to lvl 4 in Wing Command. I haven't got around to training Fleet Command yet....

End of rant and back to my question you didn't answer. Is your spreadsheet running off figures for the highest SELL ORDER prices at Jita Question

" They're gonna feel pretty stupid when they find out. " Rick. " Find out what ? " Abraham. " They're screwing with the wrong people. " Rick. Season four.   ' The Walking Dead. ' .
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#34 - 2014-09-27 19:21:02 UTC
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Neugeniko wrote:
Ekaterina 'Ghetto' Thurn wrote:
Neugeniko wrote:
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
Wow, didn't think hedbergite would have the same value as veldspar. Any reason why low sec ores have crashed in price?


Maybe the indices have changed but compressing veldspar is at 37M per hour while refining hedbergite (in a null/lowsec pos) is at 45M per hour. Refining hedbergite at a max null outpost (column AP) is at 50M per hour.

Neug


I'm not 'trolling' you or anything but I still don't understand where you get the 37 million ISK per hour for mining Veldspar. I may be a little under on my maths but not 12 million ISK under.

Does your spreadsheet draw prices from the highest sell order prices at Jita ? If so I guess it's poosible for you to maybe get that high a figure. But no one is actually going to pay that much.


My guess is your not applying orca, ie fleet bonii, to your calculations. You can apply fleet bonii to a hulk using eft or pyfa. Just setup a orca with mining foreman link - laser optimization II and a mining foreman mind link, then add the ship as fleet booster to your hulk.

Neug


ROFL! *stifles a laughing fit*. Ahem. My 25.6 million ISK per hour for Dense Veldspar is a little 'organic' but it's not out by anything like what you are suggesting. It is based on the use of a mining mindlink, T2 mining links, T2 strip miners and T2 mining crystals, standard 5% hardwiring but NOT the Michi hardwiring, one T2 MLU ( I don't advocate flying without a 'tank'.) maxed Orca and Exhumer relevant skills. I daresay I have better leadership skills than yourself with lvl 5 in ALL of the link skills for combat & mining, and up to lvl 4 in Wing Command. I haven't got around to training Fleet Command yet....

End of rant and back to my question you didn't answer. Is your spreadsheet running off figures for the highest SELL ORDER prices at Jita Question


I use the buy percentile price from jita as reported by eve central. That's the average buy price of the top 5% volume of buy orders.

Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Shiloh Templeton
Cheyenne HET Co
#35 - 2014-09-28 03:03:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Shiloh Templeton
This is a beautiful spreadsheet, but I need to dive into the calculations too because I'm getting nowhere near this isk/hour and I haven't heard of these kind of numbers being quoted to anyone else either (referring to Mining Simulator Sheet).

This really is isk/hour right (and not isk/2 hours as your indices page refers to)?

I'm generally using a lvl 4 skiff/no drones with perfect Orca boost and hauling is handled separately. My refining rate is less, but I'm doing something wrong if your numbers are right.
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#36 - 2014-09-28 05:12:26 UTC
Shiloh Templeton wrote:
This is a beautiful spreadsheet, but I need to dive into the calculations too because I'm getting nowhere near this isk/hour and I haven't heard of these kind of numbers being quoted to anyone else either (referring to Mining Simulator Sheet).

This really is isk/hour right (and not isk/2 hours as your indices page refers to)?

I'm generally using a lvl 4 skiff/no drones with perfect Orca boost and hauling is handled separately. My refining rate is less, but I'm doing something wrong if your numbers are right.


It is isk per hour, but it's for a fully skilled orca/hulk combo which gets a lot more isk per hour than a skiff/orca combo. You should probably make your own copy of the spreadsheet and enter the data for your setup. See the HELP subsheet for general guidelines to entering data. You will need a google account to make your own copy of the spreadsheet.

If you just want a fast estimate set -
YEILD PER LASER PER CYCLE 3187
CYCLE TIME 146
NUMBER OF LASERS 1
MINING SHIP MINING DRONES 0
HAULER MINING DRONES 0

Cheers,
Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#37 - 2014-09-28 08:10:10 UTC
Just a tip for those using the simulator. If you want to simulate a orca with multiple identical hulks. Increase the NUMBER OF LASERS and the number of MINING SHIP MINING DRONES.

Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#38 - 2014-09-28 21:40:12 UTC
I've cleaned up, reordered and rewritten part of the HELP subsheet. Hopefully it better explains what info needs to go in each cell. Also I've reorderd the ship/hauler cells in the mining simulator, grouping things together better.

Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
Rumbaldi
Tannhauser C-Beam
Lux Collective
#39 - 2014-09-29 13:22:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rumbaldi
A really detailed sheet, good job.

Under fleet info, If I am not in a fleet but mining solo, do I leave as is or set the % to 0?

What is overmining?
Neugeniko
Insight Securities
#40 - 2014-09-29 15:10:10 UTC
Rumbaldi wrote:
A really detailed sheet, good job.

Under fleet info, If I am not in a fleet but mining solo, do I leave as is or set the % to 0?

What is overmining?


Set the fleet bonii to 0%.

Overmining - Say your mining laser mines 1000m3 per cycle but the asteroid only has 500m3 left in it. Your mining laser won't stop half through its cycle by itself, when it could return the 500m3 in the asteroid. It will continue to end of cycle, wasting half a cycle.

Thats overmining, wasting cycle time when you could have stopped the laser and got all the ore left in the asteroid. To reduce overmining use a survey scanner and convert ore units to m3(volume), that way you get a idea when to stop your cycle. This is the hard way but most effective. You could also just mine the biggest asteroids, that will reduce overmining.

A easy is to mine in a quiet lowest security system your comfortable with. The asteroids will be bigger, that will reduce overmining by itself. Also don't mine the same asteroid belt every day. If you leave the asteroid belt alone for 2-3 days the asteroids will grow to a larger size. And put your lasers and drones on separate asteroids, that reduces overmining.


Another tip is to stay near the asteroids so your mining drones don't waste time flying. Save the closest asteroids for your mining drones.

Cheers,
Neug

Indices/Mining Simulator V6.41 UPDATED*

Daily Forge Mineral Sales Summary V1.5

Neug's Prime Industrial Real Estate V1.3
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