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Yes more ECM change ideas - give me a moment
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afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2014-09-22 15:35:58 UTC
Ix Method wrote:
But this is bollocks isn't it? As someone smartly said up there ECM is the only thing which has a counter with basically no other value. Its also the only other ewar that is generally uncounterable through decent piloting, ruins small engagements yet scales terribly. Does it have a unique value worth the downsides?



Yeah well, it's also the only ewar where I can skill into recon 5/5, fit for maximum possible effectiveness, dedicating 6 mids/2 lows/1 rig to ECM and have it do absolutely nothing.

Hell a guardian, with no links and a single ECCM will result in a 69% failure rate for a racial jammer. From a max skilled falcon with 2 SDA and a rig to the same effect.

The thing about the ECM counter is, it destroys ECM. People don't fit it though because ECM birds are rare (because they're crap now, compared to other EWAR hulls - too unreliable) and the odd time they do run into it it's easier to cry about how that recon pilot got lucky.

A simple arazu is so much more deadly to a small gang than a falcon ever can be unless the stars align just so, or you have perfect intel. Neither of these scenarios strike me as a problem tbh.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#22 - 2014-09-22 16:00:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Phaade
afkalt wrote:
Ix Method wrote:
But this is bollocks isn't it? As someone smartly said up there ECM is the only thing which has a counter with basically no other value. Its also the only other ewar that is generally uncounterable through decent piloting, ruins small engagements yet scales terribly. Does it have a unique value worth the downsides?



Yeah well, it's also the only ewar where I can skill into recon 5/5, fit for maximum possible effectiveness, dedicating 6 mids/2 lows/1 rig to ECM and have it do absolutely nothing.

Hell a guardian, with no links and a single ECCM will result in a 69% failure rate for a racial jammer. From a max skilled falcon with 2 SDA and a rig to the same effect.

The thing about the ECM counter is, it destroys ECM. People don't fit it though because ECM birds are rare (because they're crap now, compared to other EWAR hulls - too unreliable) and the odd time they do run into it it's easier to cry about how that recon pilot got lucky.

A simple arazu is so much more deadly to a small gang than a falcon ever can be unless the stars align just so, or you have perfect intel. Neither of these scenarios strike me as a problem tbh.



Useless like the single Griffin who jammed a comet, a hookbill, and a rifter for their whole lives.


Or like the time a single Griffin jammed my raven for about 4 minutes straight when I was saved by a corpmate in a, drum roll please, Blackbird!

Or useless like when one blackbird jams two logi even with ECCM.

There is literally no conceivable use for ECM.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#23 - 2014-09-22 16:22:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Phaade wrote:
Useless like the single Griffin who jammed a comet, a hookbill, and a rifter for their whole lives.


Or like the time a single Griffin jammed my raven for about 4 minutes straight when I was saved by a corpmate in a, drum roll please, Blackbird!

Or useless like when one blackbird jams two logi even with ECCM.

The nature of ECM is that it is random. As an ECM pilot, I have landed jams, even long strings of jams, that were statistically improbable. I've also missed jams, even long strings of jams, that were all but guaranteed. Nothing personal, but our anecdotes don't equate to evidence. The whole picture must be looked at.

ECCM is not a hard counter, I agree. It mucks up the jamming ships odds, but it doesn't shut them down. Given the random nature of ECM, the random nature of it's direct counter seems fitting.

Sensor damps, on the other hand, shut down ECM ships rather nicely. A Celestis has both a higher scan res and a lower sig res than a Blackbird, meaning that it can, all other things being equal, lock a Blackbird before the Blackbird can lock it back. Apply damps while the Blackbird is still locking you and the Blackbird is either A) unable to jam you, or B) at close enough that it's paper-thin tank won't keep it alive very long against drones and FoF missiles.

ECM only appears overpowered when it works far better than the odds say it should. Between the occasions where it works far worse than the odds say it should, along with it's counters, I say ECM is completely fine.

EDIT:
Phaade wrote:
There is literally no conceivable use for ECM.

I'm assuming you mean ECCM here? You just demonstrated several conceivable uses for ECM.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Grim Destiny
PVP Masters
#24 - 2014-09-22 16:29:45 UTC
ECM is the ONLY EW mod that completely takes any ship out of play. Damps, TD's, Neuts, etc can be countered by several options. The argument that "bring a sniper ship to blap falcons" is not a valid argument.

A simple solution for me would be make is percentage based, and have it reduce the amount of targets by a certain percentage. For example: I am in a guardian and have ECCM and get hit with a jam; I would only be able to lock 2-3 targets instead of the full amount. A ship could never be 100% jammed, and could always lock at least one target (i.e the falcon) to combat the EW against him.

This solution would still have a tactically sound use, and even a BETTER use in large fleets where logi are key. If the logi could only lock one ship---they would have to chose between the cap buddy and the one getting attacked.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#25 - 2014-09-22 16:38:10 UTC
In any case OP, you are on the wrong end of the bandwagon right now. Convincing the mythical new player they can turn the tide of war in a week old black bird is the running slogan.

Truth be known, a Crucifier with 3 scripted TD is just as lethal and all E-War is over powered minus the target painter which is akin to putting a band-aid on a decapitated man. None of it will change much at this point though.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#26 - 2014-09-22 16:38:12 UTC
Grim Destiny wrote:
ECM is the ONLY EW mod that completely takes any ship out of play.

Drones.
FoF Missiles.
Smartbombs.
Propulsion Modules.
Warp Drives.
Tanking Modules.
Warp Disruption Field Generators (unscripted).
Interdiction Sphere Launchers.


These are some of the things that are not impacted by ECM. There's a reason why ECM ships aren't generally considered solo ZOMGWTFPwnMobiles, and that's because they need other ships to deal with everything that ECM doesn't impact.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Jack Carrigan
Order of the Shadow
#27 - 2014-09-22 16:41:19 UTC
No.

I am the One who exists in Shadow. I am the Devil your parents warned you about.

||CEO: Order of the Shadow||Executor: The Revenant Order||Creator: Bowhead||
Grim Destiny
PVP Masters
#28 - 2014-09-22 16:43:51 UTC
Bronson Hughes wrote:
Grim Destiny wrote:
ECM is the ONLY EW mod that completely takes any ship out of play.

Drones.
FoF Missiles.
Smartbombs.
Propulsion Modules.
Warp Drives.
Tanking Modules.
Warp Disruption Field Generators (unscripted).
Interdiction Sphere Launchers.


These are some of the things that are not impacted by ECM. There's a reason why ECM ships aren't generally considered solo ZOMGWTFPwnMobiles, and that's because they need other ships to deal with everything that ECM doesn't impact.



Drones----if you dont put them on the ecm ship before you get jammed---or hes out of range. FAIL
FOF Missiles ----gun ships dont have them
Smartbombs ---- viable option? Are you serious?
Propulsion modules ----look I can go fast....but I cant do anything else.
Warp Drives ----look I can warp, but my buddies are still jammed.
Tanking Modules ----I'm slowly dying
Warp disruption field generators ----I can bubble my friends while the falcon sits at 60-100k away
Interdiction sphere launchers --not going to argue against this one...but still useless if everyone cant fire.

I believe you misinterpreted my saying by the way. Out of play doesn't mean you cant do "anything" but 95% of the time, you can't fight back.

"There's a reason why ECM ships aren't generally considered solo ZOMGWTFPwnMobiles" so the blackbird isnt a solo ship.....okay??!?!!?
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#29 - 2014-09-22 17:02:20 UTC
Grim Destiny wrote:
I believe you misinterpreted my saying by the way. Out of play doesn't mean you cant do "anything" but 95% of the time, you can't fight back.

I agree completely that ECM can remove the ability to apply remote reps and DPS in a targeted manner, but that's hardly "completely...out of play".

Bottom line: learn to counter ECM, or keep dying to it. It's not overpowered unless it can't be countered, and in it's current state it certainly can.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Grim Destiny
PVP Masters
#30 - 2014-09-22 17:14:55 UTC
EVERY single EW except ECM has a SINGLE ship counter.

TD---approach or reduce transversal
DAMP-- approach
NEUT --cap booster (VERY COMMON in case you want to argue)


but ecm
ECM ---bring more ships or fit a mod that cant guarantee you will be able to lock the pilot.

With the reduction in locked targets, the pilot would have to chose whether to keep fighting, or break off to fight the jamming ship.

Every EW should have a tactical reason to be deployed, TD a ship or two to reduce the incoming dps to your fleet, Damp, make the logi come in closer, or buy precious time before your enemy catch reps. Neut a ship to put pressure on his local reps.

Right now, in small gang warfare, the ECM ship can decide the fight. The jamming ship can even take a whole gang out of play, while his buddies mop up.
Grim Destiny
PVP Masters
#31 - 2014-09-22 17:22:00 UTC
And I get it....CCP wants pilots to fly together, and be in gangs; but for the solo player, ECM ruins the game. I dont know how many times I warped in to fight a single ship, and a falcon decloak. unless I brought my OWN falcon, there is basically nothing I can do.

If that person had brought ANY other ship, there would be a chance I could fight it because I could still lock them both.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2014-09-22 17:22:50 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
And every single other ewar is GUARANTEED to impact, ECM is not.

What part of this are you missing?



Ed: You think a 2v1 with ANY recon is going to let you win? Rubbish, you might have a misguided illusion of winning, but you're just as dead.
Grim Destiny
PVP Masters
#33 - 2014-09-22 17:26:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Grim Destiny
afkalt wrote:
And every single other ewar is GUARANTEED to impact, ECM is not.

What part of this are you missing?


uh.....so what. So my Damp hits you perfect (depending on range)----wow. So by making ECM a chance based it makes it perfect. You have missed my entire argument. I would have a completely different view if ECM only had a 10% chance to jam my ship.


Quote:
Ed: You think a 2v1 with ANY recon is going to let you win? Rubbish, you might have a misguided illusion of winning, but you're just as dead.


LET ME WIN? WHAT??? Recons arent the IWIN button....... I'm sure you can look at KB's and videos to see solo pilots take on whole gangs including recons. If you check mine and look for a rapier, I'm sure you will find that there were 2 pilots I killed right before killing his rapier buddy. -----------BUT this discussion is getting derailed quick, please post an explanation with your statements instead of ECM ISNT OP because you can counter it with 84 avatars.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2014-09-22 17:32:37 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
ECM is far from perfect, but it is closer to perfect than it is to overpowered.

Just because you /think/ it's overpowerd, doesnt make it so. See earlier post with math.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#35 - 2014-09-22 17:34:47 UTC
Grim Destiny wrote:
Right now, in small gang warfare, the ECM ship can decide the fight.

I think what you fail to understand is that this is the precise point of ECM, and really of EWar in general. It's a force multiplier. It's supposed to make small gangs far more effective.

Grim Destiny wrote:
The jamming ship can even take a whole gang out of play, while his buddies mop up.

Unless the other gang consists of the the exact number and racial composition of the ECM ship's jammers, and are all frigates, there's no way to guarantee an ECM ship can jam a whole gang. Also, this power is based on the other gang not bringing something to counter it. Like, say, drones, damps, FoFs, sufficient ECCM, or, hey maybe even it's own ECM ship.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Grim Destiny
PVP Masters
#36 - 2014-09-22 17:43:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Grim Destiny
Bronson---- I understand that it is a force multiplyer, I have done nothing but argue for that point, but if you change the way it works, it would still be a force multiplyer. As it stands, its still leaves the pilot(s) with little to no options. If the damping ship you brought gets jammed.....you can't take the ecm out.


Why is my idea so out of the ball park?
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2014-09-22 17:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
Because you are yet to demonstrate, via hard numbers, that there is anything wrong with ECM.
Bronson Hughes
The Knights of the Blessed Mother of Acceleration
#38 - 2014-09-22 17:53:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Bronson Hughes
Grim Destiny wrote:
Why is my idea so out of the ball park?

Two reasons:

1. Because ECM isn't nearly as overpowered as you think it is. (i.e. It doesn't need to have it's effectiveness reduced.)

2. Because leaving a ship that has successfully been jammed able to attack the ship jamming it makes little sense. Am I still allowed to track the Arbitrator that is disrupting my tracking, or lock the Celestis that is outside of my now damped lock range? Nope.

I do give you full marks for creativity, but with regards to this issue I think it's being applied to the wrong mechanic.

Relatively Notorious By Association

My Many Misadventures

I predicted FAUXs
Grim Destiny
PVP Masters
#39 - 2014-09-22 17:59:22 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Because you are yet to demonstrate, via hard numbers, that there is anything wrong with ECM.


Are you kidding?
Grim Destiny
PVP Masters
#40 - 2014-09-22 18:05:30 UTC
Quote:
2. Because leaving a ship that has successfully been jammed able to attack the ship jamming it makes little sense. Am I still allowed to track the Arbitrator that is disrupting my tracking, or lock the Celestis that is outside of my now damped lock range? Nope.



Yes you can....can I change the target that my drones are on. There are tricks to hit ships that are TD'ing you, most of them involve approaching or keeping that ship at range. Damps----approach.

But with both those example, I can still FIGHT with most of my ships abilities.