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Yes more ECM change ideas - give me a moment
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Kendon Riddick
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2014-09-22 00:49:06 UTC
Okay - we all hate being jammed and we know how great it is in large fights and good for under dogs and surprise attacks and such.

20 seconds out of a fight is a LONG time in pvp. An ECM ship can, if its lucky with the dice rolls jam out multiple ships. other EW has to focus on one to really take it out of the fight, but its guaranteed not chance.

Damps can be countered by sensor boosting and range control

TD can be countered by tracking mods and ship control (approach, escape vectors) and range control

ECM however is pure chance and if it lands a jam (yes eccm helps a bit but its still all luck) you are done for for 20 seconds.


How about a change that says that while jammed you have a CHANCE to lock ships every X seconds while a successful jam is on you?

So you have 10 sensor strength and you are jammed most of the time by a falcon with 10 jam strength to your sensor type, every 5 seconds you have a 10/10 change of locking aka 10% chance to lock anything every 5 seconds.

ECM has a free reign and no counter to a successful jam, im not saying a good jam should be easy to avoid, but there should be something you should be able to do, like the other EW, and chance against a chance system seems like a fair compromise.


ECM lovers descend and rip this idea to shreds. I expect it. Just thought there should be something, some glimmer of hope for the ecm'ed to death pvper.
LT Alter
Ryba.
White Squall.
#2 - 2014-09-22 02:26:34 UTC
I agree with the first half of your post, yes ECM has bad mechanics and yes it should be changed. However first off I'm not 100% sure I even understand what you mean for a change or how it would even work exactly, and second off you just griped about something being pure chance based and came back with an idea that is still chance based, so I don't your point.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#3 - 2014-09-22 02:39:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Alvatore DiMarco
Some capsuleers say ECM is "dishonorable" and "unfair".

Jam those ones first, and kill them last.

As for ECM having a "free rein", it's only because nobody bothers to bring ECCM.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#4 - 2014-09-22 04:23:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
ECM can be countered by range. Have a sniper not in ecm optimal, out of falloff if possible. In fall off even the math gets fuzzy there.

Bum rush a falcon with no ships that can shoot 2 feet past the barrel and bad things can and will happen put another way.

This was why I brought cerbs on roams. They shoot far. YOU don't have to kill the flacon even, you just have to have them go I am going to die and gtfo. Falcon not on field is not jamming. Learned this trick when used against me. I told my peeps kill that damn cerb as he is killing me piece by piece. We can't reach him, tied up now. Well get untied up as I am about to warp the hell out. Not liked by some...but it was a case of I could die like a muppet to an HML snipe cerb or warp off. Either way meant no jams. The former just meant I didn't lose a ship in the process.


Plus eccm, remote eccm (I actually packed this in jam scorpions in case needed if lounging about by say logo's since us support should stick together) sensor backup array, sensor skill, etc.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#5 - 2014-09-22 04:57:41 UTC
Kendon Riddick wrote:
Okay - we all hate being jammed and we know how great it is in large fights and good for under dogs and surprise attacks and such.



ECM scales poorly in fleet engagements.

The other thing is that sensor damps and tracking disruptors only give the person being damped the illusion that they can still do something, while ECM makes it obvious that you can't.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Phaade
LowKey Ops
Snuffed Out
#6 - 2014-09-22 04:59:18 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Some capsuleers say ECM is "dishonorable" and "unfair".

Jam those ones first, and kill them last.

As for ECM having a "free rein", it's only because nobody bothers to bring ECCM.


Thats a really, really stupid response.

ECCM ships can still be jammed. Happpened to our logi last night. 2 down to one blackbird, and my ensuing death.

ECM is a crap mechanic.
Hopelesshobo
Hoboland
#7 - 2014-09-22 05:10:42 UTC
Phaade wrote:
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Some capsuleers say ECM is "dishonorable" and "unfair".

Jam those ones first, and kill them last.

As for ECM having a "free rein", it's only because nobody bothers to bring ECCM.


Thats a really, really stupid response.

ECCM ships can still be jammed. Happpened to our logi last night. 2 down to one blackbird, and my ensuing death.

ECM is a crap mechanic.


And you still get sensor damped when you have sensor boosters on.

And you still get tracking disrupted when you have tracking computers on.

Lowering the average to make you look better since 2012.
Iain Cariaba
#8 - 2014-09-22 05:50:30 UTC
For those who don't understand the mechanics behind ECM, it does look overpowered. Consider this, however. Unless you put those ECM modules on specialized ECM bonused ships, the chances of you being able to jam your way out of a wet paper bag is nil.

On the other side, you can put a single sensor dampener on each ship in a small fleet and damp your target down to where he has to get in spitting distance to lock you, regardless if it has bonuses to damps. Along the same lines, put a tracking disruptor on each ship in your cruiser roam, and suddenly that t3 isn't nearly so dangerous. Put an omni jammer on each ship in that same fleet, and you'll probably get one single cycle where the interceptor harassing you is jammed. Use racial jams, and that likelyhood drops.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#9 - 2014-09-22 05:51:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Zan Shiro
Hopelesshobo wrote:

And you still get sensor damped when you have sensor boosters on.

And you still get tracking disrupted when you have tracking computers on.



Yep.....


vicious circles these arguments.


Ship/weapon/ammo dependent can have good td really debilitating to the point its a waste of time to fire. I'd be looking at the caldari gun boats where tracking not common bonus. Case of say rokh, my tc scripted for tracking is al;ready straining to hit targets not standing still lo. TD that...it hurts. Not ecm shutdown but you ain't hitting worth a damn. Pointless exercise to fire imo worst case. And gives the enemy a good 10 seconds on reload if say I try to pull a rabbit out of my hat and hope better tracking ammo helps.

And I have some fits good damps on them also has them shutdown for all intents and purposes. My kiters/snipers like this. Some are very minimal tank. I get damped I look for exit strategies tbh. As paper tank kiter versus brawler (that I now have to be in range of to lock) usually ends bad.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#10 - 2014-09-22 06:10:21 UTC
Ishtars with Sentries set to Aggressive.

You get jammed, they get blapped in less than 20 secs.

That or you could resort to the olden "outnumber them with moar broskies than they have jams" tactic.

Kthnx

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#11 - 2014-09-22 06:20:12 UTC
You might want to take a look at what I wrote a couple months ago.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO - Eve-guides.fr

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart
Icarus Able
Refuse.Resist
#12 - 2014-09-22 08:58:40 UTC
My problem with ECCM isnt so much that its chance based(although that is a problem)

Its that its counter offers you no other benefits in combat. For sensor damps and TDs thats not the case.
Ix Method
Doomheim
#13 - 2014-09-22 09:51:22 UTC
Still never seen a fix ECM solution that would be better than deleting ECM from the game and giving Caldari a Missile TD ewar instead.

Would anyone really miss it? Is such a binary win-lose mechanic even worth saving?

Seems the world could shuffle over to damps and neuts and nothing much would change.

Travelling at the speed of love.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#14 - 2014-09-22 10:56:47 UTC
Kendon Riddick wrote:

ECM however is pure chance



ECM has a Chance element to it yes it is however far from pure chance. ECM is probably the hardest for of E-War to use particularly when you have more then one ECM boat in the fleet. managing cycle times and keeping as many jams off as possible as well as making sure you aren't jamming the same person as your fleet mate is no easy task. Other forms of E-War you know that they land and don't need to worry about making sure you damp the guy your fleet mate missed a cycle on.


As well unlike other E-war boats you have little to no DPS are slow and have no tank. other forms of e-war are effective when placed on any ship where as the only effective form of ECM is the burst and that's only really any good for breaking a scram.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#15 - 2014-09-22 11:32:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Adrie Atticus
1) What has 10 senor strength?

2) Out-range the ECM ship is the easiest option

3) Kill the ECM ship; not applicable if solo

4) Damp the ECM ship, see 2

5) Counter-jam the ECM boat with your own

Edit: 3x Projected ECCM would cause your theory to fail as it' dgo over 100 sensor STR and your math says that 10/10 = 10% so over a 100 would be 120/10 = 120% chance to lock.
Voxinian
#16 - 2014-09-22 11:39:25 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Some capsuleers say ECM is "dishonorable" and "unfair".

Jam those ones first, and kill them last.

As for ECM having a "free rein", it's only because nobody bothers to bring ECCM.

Wanted to thumb this up, but I ran out of thumbs aparently.
Zan Shiro
Doomheim
#17 - 2014-09-22 11:47:13 UTC
Ix Method wrote:


Would anyone really miss it? Is such a binary win-lose mechanic even worth saving?

Seems the world could shuffle over to damps and neuts and nothing much would change.



You have a slippery slope here...

First they came for the ecm and I said nothing as I don't use dcm

Then they came for the damps and I said nothing as I don't use them

Then they came for my td and no one was left to speak for me.

Remove ecm then the damp war takes center stage. Then we get nerf damps/remove damps threads galore. Or TD could be next on the block. Let you pick the order you prefer lol

thats how these people work. Give em an inch, they want the whole damn mile. Since they cba to counter the e-war and if ccp gives in here next it will be well I don't think I should have to run sebo with a script I don't like to counter damps.

Or I thinks its unfair I have to switch out range scripts to tracking on my TC.

And you get the wolf pilots among others representing the 2 mid slot crew going And I thinks its unfair I can't do any of the above. running prop + tackle mlds..ccp so remove damp/td now to make life fair for all.



These people never stop at the one thing. CCP gave them their bone years ago when true because of falcon was nerfed. It used to be much longer range. They got their inch, now they want the whole damn mile...
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2014-09-22 12:14:08 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
There is nothing wrong with ECM: A substantiation with numbers
Version 1.0.3 10/21/13
By: Aliventi
A work in progress. To be refined as more "ECM is OP/wrong/bad" threads pop up.


If you step back and take a look, ECM is arguably the least destructive of the EWAR varieties with the exception of TPs. A sensor dampener can lower a ship's targeting range to the point that it can't lock anything. Tracking disruptors lower the tracking on a ship to the point it can't actually hit anything. How frustrating is it that you can lock a target, but you can't track well enough to even hit it? Of course, TDs don't work against logistics, EWAR, or missile boats. That would make TDs less effective than ECM.

In other words, ECM, damps, and tracking disruption all have the potential to remove enemies from the fight. ECM and damps prevent you from locking, and TDs prevent your guns from doing anything effective. ECM is balanced in the way that it has a non-trivial chance of outright failing none of the other EWARs have. In fact SDs, TDs, and TPs never miss. ECM effects lasts 20 seconds whereas SD and TD effects last for as long as the module is activated.

Another balancing factor is that ECM is a mid-slot module in a race that is purely shield tanking. The other three races can fill their mids with EWAR and put together a reasonable armor tank. It is no mystery that this is why the CFC celestis fleets are so successful. They are combining never miss EWAR with a bonused ship that can tank long enough for logi to rep them. Caldari ships can put together a tissue paper armor tank at best.

One more reason ECM is less effective than the other types of EWARs is that to be effective in all situations a ECM ship needs to fit 4 specialized modules compared to the 1 generalized module that TDs, SDs and TPs enjoy. This means that tank is often sacrificed to reacha bare minimum of effectiveness.

"That is all fine and dandy," You say "but ECM is still too powerful". Why don't we take a look at some numbers?

Take a T2 Minmatar jammer. The ECM Phase Inverter II has a Ladar jam strength of 3.6.
Jammer vs Rifter: 3.6/8 sensor strength = 45% chance of a jam or 55% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Stabber: 3.6/13 sensor strength = 27.69% chance of a jam or 72.31% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Hurricane: 3.6/16 sensor strength = 22.5% chance of a jam or 77.5% chance of doing nothing.
Jammer vs Tempest: 3.6/20 sensor strength = 18% chance of a jam or 82% chance of doing nothing.

See? hardly anything wrong with ECM. Even against the most basic frigate it will fail more times than it will succeed. Imagine if your guns, hardeners, point, MWD, etc. had that fail rate. *shudder*

You see your issue is not truly with ECM. Your issue, is in fact, with the ECM bonused hulls. Take a Falcon with all level 5 skills fit with racial jammers, 2 Sensor Distortion Amps, and one ECM strength rig and let's look at those numbers again.

All level 5 Falcon vs. Sensor Comp. 5 ship:
Jammer vs Rifter: 14.2/9.6 sensor strength = 100% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 14.2/15.6 sensor strength = 91.02% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 14.2/19.2 sensor strength = 73.95% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 14.2/24 sensor strength = 59.16% chance of jamming

That really isn't OP at all. Considering the vast amount of training one has to accomplish to become a perfect Falcon pilot. In comparison the time it take to train a racial sensor comp to 5 or fit an ECCM module is trivial. In addition a Falcon has a tissue paper tank, a non-trivial chance of missing a jam, and unlike the other forms of EWAR it doesn't last forever.

Now you are likely to bring up a rather painful point in small gang and solo PvP: The ECM drone. Why don't we take a look at those?

EC-300 drone strength is 1.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1/9.6 sensor strength = 10.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1/15.6 sensor strength = 6.41% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1/19.2 sensor strength = 5.23% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1/24 sensor strength = 4.16% chance of jamming

EC-600 drone strength is 1.5.
Jammer vs Rifter: 1.5/9.6 sensor strength = 15.62% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Stabber: 1.5/15.6 sensor strength = 9.61% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Hurricane: 1.5/19.2 sensor strength = 7.81% chance of jamming
Jammer vs Tempest: 1.5/24 sensor strength = 6.25% chance of jamming

Neither of those scream OP at all. "Now that isn't the real story" you exclaim "Most ships have 5!" True:
(How to calculate: Link calculator: Link (P (X>=1)) is the important number)

5 EC-300 jam strength 1:
vs Rifter: 42.28% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 28.19% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 23.55% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: 21.02% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 25m3 of drones these do seem a touch too powerful. I would recommend a reduction in jam strength down to .75.

5 EC-600 jam strength 1.5:
vs Rifter: 57.22% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Stabber: 39.66% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Hurricane: 33.40% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
vs Tempest: Or 27.58% chance of jamming with 5 drones.
For 50m3 of drones these seem very well balanced for their size.

You see in the grand scheme of things ECM is neither OP, broken, wrong, out of place, or any of the other things people claim ECM is. It is merely a different and perfectly valid form of EWAR. It is high-risk high-reward, only truly effective on bonused hulls (as it should be) which at best can manage a tissue paper tank when fitting jams, and doesn't last forever like the other forms of EWAR. All things considered, it is perfectly in line with the other forms of EWAR. What's so wrong with that?



HTH
Ix Method
Doomheim
#19 - 2014-09-22 14:13:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Ix Method
Zan Shiro wrote:
Ix Method wrote:


Would anyone really miss it? Is such a binary win-lose mechanic even worth saving?

Seems the world could shuffle over to damps and neuts and nothing much would change.



You have a slippery slope here...

Remove ecm then the damp war takes center stage. Then we get nerf damps/remove damps threads galore. Or TD could be next on the block. Let you pick the order you prefer lol

thats how these people work. Give em an inch, they want the whole damn mile. Since they cba to counter the e-war and if ccp gives in here next it will be well I don't think I should have to run sebo with a script I don't like to counter damps.

But this is bollocks isn't it? As someone smartly said up there ECM is the only thing which has a counter with basically no other value. Its also the only other ewar that is generally uncounterable through decent piloting, ruins small engagements yet scales terribly. Does it have a unique value worth the downsides?

Travelling at the speed of love.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#20 - 2014-09-22 14:23:59 UTC
Ix Method wrote:
Zan Shiro wrote:
Ix Method wrote:


Would anyone really miss it? Is such a binary win-lose mechanic even worth saving?

Seems the world could shuffle over to damps and neuts and nothing much would change.



You have a slippery slope here...

Remove ecm then the damp war takes center stage. Then we get nerf damps/remove damps threads galore. Or TD could be next on the block. Let you pick the order you prefer lol

thats how these people work. Give em an inch, they want the whole damn mile. Since they cba to counter the e-war and if ccp gives in here next it will be well I don't think I should have to run sebo with a script I don't like to counter damps.

But this is bollocks isn't it? As someone smartly said up there ECM is the only thing which has a counter with basically no other value. Its also the only other ewar that is generally uncounterable through decent piloting, ruins small engagements yet scales terribly. Does it have a unique value worth the downsides?




the ECCM does have another value why don't you look into what sensor strength affects and how it ties in with sig res. as for it not being counter able ECCM drastically lowers the chance of a jam landing and even with out the ECCM its the only E-war that in optimal can have a 0% effect and if jams don't land the ECM boat can be popped b4 the jams cycle again

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
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